Calling all Law Keepers.

[Armadillo]

I never thought of it that way when I give flowers.

That's the difference between love and putting on a show.

The love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, yes and gone are the days of expecting something in return.

 

[Helen]

grace is about a lot more than the forgiveness of sins, or keeping the law. We are told that the law is insufficient because grace demands your life, not just your obedience to the law, which should not even be an issue any longer once the remedy is understood.

"Count the cost" does not seem to be getting a hearing, and i am noting that some are surprised by "deny yourself," is why i say this.

Where I see the mix up is..in those of us who see the fullness of grace see it differently to those who just say that they are for grace. Again it seems like a mixture. On one hand saying they believe in grace, but wanting to also keep a little bit of law keeping.
( NOT talking here about good works)
As I see grace in the NT says , God has removed all that was written against us..and nailed it to His cross.. All judgement fell on Him. We cannot be judge for the same crime twice.
What I am saying here is..those who 'say' they believe in grace, do not speak the language of grace!
To say..as we have all read countless times in other threads...'Yes, we are under grace BUT God requires us to keep the law. God commands us the keep the law..we must keep the law.' etc That is not the language of grace!! That is legalism.
In the wilderness God tells us what it was all about- 'To see what was in their hearts, to see if they would love Him or not..'
Under GRACE it is also to see what is in our hearts...we have been set free by Jesus' sacrifice. Free to choose. Even free to not walk how He first taught us to walk.
( to will lose the reward of faithfulness at the end...but He leaves us free.)

I are free to test what is really in our hearts!! What He is looking for is a Bride who says- "I will not go out free...but I will be a love slave and stay by you.'
That, to me, is the test of grace.
I know you have a dog. When young we show it boundaries, but as it matures we let it off the leash to see what it does, and how it behaves under freedom.
Under grace we are off leash..all the stuff about we must do this and we are required to do that, is not Bride speak, or grace speak. We are free to choose, that is the test of love for the NT believer.
God is a heart specialist ...that is what he will be checking upon.
If we really love, we will stay as close as possible.
It annoys my husband sometimes...the dog is off leash..but she walks right by his feet and almost trips him up. A good picture of devotion. He can only get her to run if he throws the ball, if not she's happy to walk by his side. ( or under his feet )

I think this whole subject is warn out now. We will all stand where we have chosen to stand on the issue of grace and law.
Whoops it got a bit rambling here. lol

 

[bbyrd009]

What I am saying here is..those who 'say' they believe in grace, do not speak the language of grace!
To say..as we have all read countless times in other threads...'Yes, we are under grace BUT God requires us to keep the law. God commands us the keep the law..we must keep the law.' etc That is not the language of grace!! That is legalism.

well, then i would point out that all those are true, and the only reason a lawbreaker would even need to discuss grace is for the remediation of their sins, their breaking of the law, because they have not even built their foundation on Christ yet, if they are still breaking the law, the least they could do being to keep it, or failing that, to avail themselves of grace by confessing their sins out loud, and rebounding.

Now, of course this is insufficient to grace, "the law fails," because there is no law that says you must die for anyone else; Grace demands more than the Law, not less. Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God... or iow we move into a different court, where it is understood that Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends, which is not a Law, but a work under Grace. Not even in the same court as law-keeping, iow

 

[bbyrd009]

We will all stand where we have chosen to stand on the issue of grace and law.

ha believe me, as long as there are new seekers needing to understand that keeping the law is the minimum requirement, and that "i am not a law breaker" is not = "i die to myself in order to serve my fellow man," the "debate" will continue imo. I mean, if we do not have to keep the law, then why do we have to confess our sins, one to another?

 

[mjrhealth]

well, then i would point out that all those are true, and the only reason a lawbreaker would even need to discuss grace is for the remediation of their sins, their breaking of the law, because they have not even built their foundation on Christ yet, if they are still breaking the law, the least they could do being to keep it, or failing that, to avail themselves of grace by confessing their sins out loud, and rebounding.

Now, of course this is insufficient to grace, "the law fails," because there is no law that says you must die for anyone else; Grace demands more than the Law, not less. Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God... or iow we move into a different court, where it is understood that Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends, which is not a Law, but a work under Grace. Not even in the same court as law-keeping, iow

Only mistake here, is grace demands nothing, if it did, it would not be grace. The biggest problem is people turning Gods request into a demand, teh moment it becomes a demand it requires "you" to do the work, which He has already done. "It is finished"

 

[bbyrd009]

Only mistake here, is grace demands nothing, if it did, it would not be grace.

and "count the cost" then, in that light? If 'Grace demands nothing' in that sense, what is the cost that i should be counting?

 

[bbyrd009]

teh moment it becomes a demand it requires "you" to do the work, which He has already done. "It is finished"

we'll see why this fails once we have answered what cost is to be counted imo.

 

[Helen]

we'll see why this fails once we have answered what cost is to be counted imo.

Good question...I'd say- " staying the course until the end."
Before we start the journey, weighing the price of running the raced knowing it wont be a bed of roses. We do have an active Enemy. ( and as we know...as the saying goes.- " We have identified the enemy, and they are us" )

 

[bbyrd009]

Good question...I'd say- " staying the course until the end."

and this 'staying the course' then = 'holding a certain perspective in your mind?' Having a belief? That is 'staying a course?'

 

[Helen]

and this 'staying the course' then = 'holding a certain perspective in your mind?' Having a belief? That is 'staying a course?'

I was thinking of Paul...I have not been stoned, beaten etc like he was...but I used to read a load of missionary books when I was first a Christian. They sure sat down and counted the cost before they went. Many died.
We were asked ( when we were in our thirties ) to go as missionaries to Africa. A missionary there needed to come home, he been there ten years and was on burn out.
We counted the cost. ( for a month...much prayer on our faces) One cost being to leave our small children back in England because the mission station was deep in the bush.
My husbands cost was knowing that big spiders and snakes were there ...he hates snakes.

Finally we told them yes , we would change places with John Selfridge and his wife.
Next day we were told that someone from the next mission station had volunteered, and we weren't needed.
We then realised that all the sleepless nights of waiting upon the Lord for the strength to go, and leave the kids behind..was just a test of our willingness.
So, for me..counting the cost is being prepared for whatever God may speak.

( but... I can see where you are going with this )

 

[mjrhealth]

, what is the cost that i should be counting?

Well what have you lost, cost me my family, you????

 

[GodsGrace]

Live by the Law or justified by? I think the passage you have in mind is Galatians 5:1-6 in which Paul is addressing those who keep the Law to be justified. I don't think any "Law keepers" here are saying that.

Now.. I think most Law Keepers are NOT saying this >> Buying a PERFECT bouquet of flowers will win me love from the person of my affections.

I DO think they are saying this>>> We love each other therefore I am getting a bouquet of flowers because I love him or her. Oops! Two flowers fell out. Oh well, I know they like them anyway because our love does not depend on them. But I got them because he or she loves them. My next bouquet will be better.

As for the judgmental part I DO think some are saying to others >> You say you love them, but what have you done to show that love? You bought no flowers they love because you say that they are not needed and instead sit around watching TV all day.

What a good post!
How refreshing.

I've often said that we here are ALREADY saved. We are not working to be justified.

But because we are justified does not mean we can ignore the law (the moral law).

Sanctification is next --- and that's a life-long process of buying flowers for the one we love.

 

[mjrhealth]

Grace demands nothing

Just to add,

1Co_13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co_13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Now if God demanded He would no longer be a loving God, but just like a man which is what mankind has done to Him, made Him in our Image.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing wrong with sitting around watching tv all day, catching up on all your favorite shows and flower buying means you expect something in return, yes?

Wow.
I know I won't...
But I sure hope I never get flowers from you!

And you say you know about love...

 

[mjrhealth]

But because we are justified does not mean we can ignore the law (the moral law).

Its not about ignoring the law, its all about walking in Love and letting Love take care of it. Only those not walking in love will have any care for the law, Love does not need laws to do whats right, thats why it is Love.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where I see the mix up is..in those of us who see the fullness of grace see it differently to those who just say that they are for grace. Again it seems like a mixture. On one hand saying they believe in grace, but wanting to also keep a little bit of law keeping.
( NOT talking here about good works)
As I see grace in the NT says , God has removed all that was written against us..and nailed it to His cross.. All judgement fell on Him. We cannot be judge for the same crime twice.
What I am saying here is..those who 'say' they believe in grace, do not speak the language of grace!
To say..as we have all read countless times in other threads...'Yes, we are under grace BUT God requires us to keep the law. God commands us the keep the law..we must keep the law.' etc That is not the language of grace!! That is legalism.
In the wilderness God tells us what it was all about- 'To see what was in their hearts, to see if they would love Him or not..'
Under GRACE it is also to see what is in our hearts...we have been set free by Jesus' sacrifice. Free to choose. Even free to not walk how He first taught us to walk.
( to will lose the reward of faithfulness at the end...but He leaves us free.)

I are free to test what is really in our hearts!! What He is looking for is a Bride who says- "I will not go out free...but I will be a love slave and stay by you.'
That, to me, is the test of grace.
I know you have a dog. When young we show it boundaries, but as it matures we let it off the leash to see what it does, and how it behaves under freedom.
Under grace we are off leash..all the stuff about we must do this and we are required to do that, is not Bride speak, or grace speak. We are free to choose, that is the test of love for the NT believer.
God is a heart specialist ...that is what he will be checking upon.
If we really love, we will stay as close as possible.
It annoys my husband sometimes...the dog is off leash..but she walks right by his feet and almost trips him up. A good picture of devotion. He can only get her to run if he throws the ball, if not she's happy to walk by his side. ( or under his feet )

I think this whole subject is warn out now. We will all stand where we have chosen to stand on the issue of grace and law.
Whoops it got a bit rambling here. lol

1. You just gave a Like to someone who said that grace does not nullify the law. Which is what I've been saying all along.

2. You say God will judge the heart and indeed He will -- If heaven was based on our works, we'd all fall short, of course.
So what do you make of this verse?
This is Jesus speaking.

John 5:28-29

28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Instead of scolding me for wanting to keep the moral law as God wants us to, why don't you explain the above verse.

 

[mjrhealth]

If you didnt have teh 10 commandments would you murder your brother, well Love would not, law or no law.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only mistake here, is grace demands nothing, if it did, it would not be grace. The biggest problem is people turning Gods request into a demand, teh moment it becomes a demand it requires "you" to do the work, which He has already done. "It is finished"

You're funny.
God doesn't make REQUESTS.
He's GOD.
God demands.
Whether we obey or not,
whatever the consequences or not,
is another story.

But you could be sure that God demands
And He demands that we choose...

Start at Genesis 2:17
God demanded that Adam and Eve not eat from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They did and see the consequences.

End at Revelation 22:12
Jesus is coming quickly and will render to every man as he HAS DONE.

And so much in between.
I believe it behooves us to listen and obey God's words.

 

[Dcopymope]

1. You just gave a Like to someone who said that grace does not nullify the law. Which is what I've been saying all along.

2. You say God will judge the heart and indeed He will -- If heaven was based on our works, we'd all fall short, of course.
So what do you make of this verse?
This is Jesus speaking.

John 5:28-29

28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Instead of scolding me for wanting to keep the moral law as God wants us to, why don't you explain the above verse.

There are some who will say this verse supposedly doesn't apply to us because we are 'under grace', and this was meant for the Jews who were still under the law.................and I say we might as well throw out all the teachings of John, Mark, Luke and Matthew, James included since everything they ever said was all about the Jews. What good is any of it to us? We should just make the new testament all about the writings of Paul. But of course, we know what Jesus plainly stated happens to those who removes or adds onto the words written in the Bible. He won't be too pleased with them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Its not about ignoring the law, its all about walking in Love and letting Love take care of it. Only those not walking in love will have any care for the law, Love does not need laws to do whats right, thats why it is Love.

Here's what I've learned and can attest to:
Those who say they walk in grace are by far the most judgemental and unkind people I've run across.

Those who say they want to keep the law and do good works are the kindest persons I've run across.

Pay attention and you'll find that I'm correct in my observation.
Some TALK
and some DO.