CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Scott Downey]

In Mark 4​

The Parable of the Sower​

1 And again He began to teach by the sea. And a great multitude was gathered to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole multitude was on the land facing the sea. 2 Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching:

3 “Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds [a]of the air came and devoured it. 5 Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. 7 And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no [b]crop. 8 But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

9 And He said [c]to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

The Purpose of Parables​

10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the [d]mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”

The Parable of the Sower Explained​

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, [e]accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

​

In Luke

The Parable of the Sower​

4 And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable: 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded [e]a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

The Purpose of Parables​

9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”

10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the [f]mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that

‘Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.’

The Parable of the Sower Explained​

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of [g]temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.[h]

 

[Scott Downey]

The Purpose of Parables​

Mark 4
10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the [a]mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”
-----------------------------------------------------------
Christ speaking to the people in parables is not to reveal truth or save anyone, but to actually prevent them from hearing the truth directly as they were not given to know Christ as the Truth, lest they should turn(repent) and their SINS BE FORGIVEN THEM....

Christ spoke to the people outside in parables. But to those He had chosen, the insiders, He revealed to them the truth and the meaning as they had been granted by God to know the truth in Christ and be forgiven their sins.....

Isaiah 6,
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying:

“Whom shall I send,
And who will go for Us?”
Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”

9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 13:34

Prophecy and the Parables​

All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit​

Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All[g] things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

 

[Scott Downey]

No one comes to Christ unless the Father grants this to them and gives them To Christ
No one knows Christ unless Christ wills to reveal THEMSELVES, The FATHER and SON, to them.

 

[Red Baker]

Shall we continue this theological dance, twirling through the complexities of Calvinistic wisdom? After all, in this cosmic ballroom, every step reveals another facet of the grand comedy that is the Calvinist perspective

Yes, you are very entertaining.

 

[JBO]

In Mark 4​

The Parable of the Sower​

1 And again He began to teach by the sea. And a great multitude was gathered to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole multitude was on the land facing the sea. 2 Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching:

3 “Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds [a]of the air came and devoured it. 5 Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. 7 And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no [b]crop. 8 But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

9 And He said [c]to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

The Purpose of Parables​

10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the [d]mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”

The Parable of the Sower Explained​

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, [e]accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

​

In Luke

The Parable of the Sower​

4 And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable: 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded [e]a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

The Purpose of Parables​

9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”

10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the [f]mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that

‘Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.’

The Parable of the Sower Explained​

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of [g]temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.[h]

I'll just bet that you think that parable supports your Calvinist teaching. It doesn't. Luke 8:13 which you quoted could not possibly even happen if Calvinism is true. According to Calvinism, it is not possible for the unregenerated to hear and receive the word at all, let alone with joy. Additionally, it is not possible for the unregenerated to believe for a while and then later not. I have been told so many times that only the regenerated, the born again, can see, hear, or believe (have faith). In fact verse 12 couldn't happen either. There is nothing for the devil to take away from the unregenerated. He can't see or hear and thus receive anything.

 

[Red Baker]

The word "that" in "and that not of yourselves" does not refer back to either faith or grace. It can't since in the Greek it is neuter gender and both grace and fiaith in the Greek are feminine gender. The only acceptable interpretation is that it refers to the entire phrase, "by grace you have been saved through faith". In other words, the gift is salvation.

Greetings Jim~I just got in, and trying to get caught on reading the posts that have been posted before finishing Romans 8.

I also would like to comment of Acts 13:48, and Ephesians 2:8,9.... but later.

I have a busy next three days, with one day leaving to head to Augusta, Ga. ~ but hope to turn that trip in one day, plus, do what I need to do there as well.

a little quick note:

The word "that" in "and that not of yourselves" does not refer back to either faith or grace

Jim, you are wrong on this my friend, very wrong ~ "that" refers back to FAITH, which is a gift from God, but Paul is not speaking our the faith we excise in Christ, but the faith that Christ secured for his people! I have address this truth with these very scriptures on GCF, but we love to do so again for others to consider.

RB

 

[Scott Downey]

I'll just bet that you think that parable supports your Calvinist teaching. It doesn't. Luke 8:13 which you quoted could not possibly even happen if Calvinism is true. According to Calvinism, it is not possible for the unregenerated to hear and receive the word at all, let alone with joy. Additionally, it is not possible for the unregenerated to believe for a while and then later not. I have been told so many times that only the regenerated, the born again, can see, hear, or believe (have faith). In fact verse 12 couldn't happen either. There is nothing for the devil to take away from the unregenerated. He can't see or hear and thus receive anything.

Actually your idea is wrong there.
The only saved person was the one who bore fruit to God, none of the others did.

Calvin called it the perseverance of the saints.

 

[Scott Downey]

Mark 4:20
But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

Luke 8:15
But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

John 15:5
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Matthew 3:10
And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 7:17
Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 13:23
But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

Romans 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Did you guys see the new Bible that just came out that calvinists are all raving about???

 

[Ronald Nolette]

To believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is the height of spiritual depravity. You might be better off to believe in no God at all than to believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born. To believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is to believe that God is an unjust, unrighteous, unmerciful, tyrant. The Bible plainly teaches that God's people are justified by faith. They are justified by faith in God and his righteousness.

This statement tells me you do not understand what are the "five points of Calvinism" that were given to refute the five points of Jacob Armenius at the Synod of Dort.

God does not predestine people to hell. all of mankind by very nature are destined for hell. No one gets to heaven other than placing faith in the death and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin.

God doesn't predestinate the lost- all of mankind was already lost.

 

[Tulipbee]

This statement tells me you do not understand what are the "five points of Calvinism" that were given to refute the five points of Jacob Armenius at the Synod of Dort.

God does not predestine people to hell. all of mankind by very nature are destined for hell. No one gets to heaven other than placing faith in the death and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin.

God doesn't predestinate the lost- all of mankind was already lost.

Arminians wrote the "five points of Calvinism"

 

[Robert Pate]

Arminians wrote the "five points of Calvinism"

You are wrong. Jesus has ALLREADY reconciled us and the world unto God, "And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:18. You don't believe the Bible. You will say and do anything to protect your false God.

 

[Tulipbee]

You are wrong. Jesus has ALLREADY reconciled us and the world unto God, "And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:18. You don't believe the Bible. You will say and do anything to protect your false God.

You're right, the "five points of Calvinism" were formulated by Calvinists during the Synod of Dort and were not authored by Arminians.

 

[Red Baker]

Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Truth

Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Truth John Calvin 1509-1564

letgodbetrue.com

 

[Red Baker]

You are wrong. Jesus has ALLREADY reconciled us and the world unto God, "And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:18. You don't believe the Bible. You will say and do anything to protect your false God.

Robert, you are so confused with almost all scriptures you attempt to use, because of the false gospel you have come to accept and desire to believe in.

2nd Corinthians 5:19~ To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.​

Here is further explanation of what was just stated, for “to wit” are God’s words for an explanation.

There are four beautiful aspects to the elect's salvation described here by the Spirit’s inspired explanation. The blessed God, Who wrought us for immortal glory (5:5), sent Jesus Christ, Whom He chose out of the people to be our Saviour and Mediator (Psalms 89:19; John 6:38-39; 17:2 2nd Timothy 2:5). God reconciled the world, from the Jews and Gentiles, (world, meaning all without "distinction", for it cannot mean all "without exception", for most to the world are reconciled unto God ) unto Himself, by putting away their sins and making them entirely acceptable to Him (Romans 9:21-24; Ephesians 1:3-6; Colossians 1:20-23).

Instead of charging them with sin, He charged their sins to Jesus Christ, which put them in the glorious condition of being forgiven their sins (Psalms 32:1-2; Isaiah 53:5-11; 2nd Peter 2:24).

The message of this accomplished fact is brought to the elect by preaching, which is done by men chosen, gifted, and appointed by God (Ephesians 4:8-14; 2nd Timothy 1:9-10; 2nd Timothy 2:2).

Gospel preachers do not bring reconciliation or offer reconciliation, they bring the news of the facts! Gospel preachers do not bring life or immortality, they only bring them to light (2nd Timothy 1:9-10). There is not one soul more or less in heaven by the labors or lack thereof of any or all preachers. The blessed God of heaven is not begging sinners at all to please let Him be reconciled to them! How fooish to even think that to be so! The gospel is a savor of life unto life and death unto death, but not death to life (2nd Corinthians 2:14-17)!

Robert, men like you need to be expose for their lack of bible knowledge, even though you labor to make a lot of noise just to be heard.

 

[Red Baker]

Did you guys see the new Bible that just came out that calvinists are all raving about???


View attachment 40055

Big Boy~ I'll take any NT book you desire to take and go verse by verse with you or Robert and we shall see who truly are the cherry pickers of God's word. This is an open invitation. I will not do this just to put any man down, God forbid, but to prove that true children of God do not cherry pick any part of God's word and over look at other part of it. By this, I'm not saying those who disagree with me cherry pick, only their understanding I'm convinced is wrong and AM willing to defend what I believe and teach....are you?

David had his thirty mighty men and Jesus Christ has his...are you one of them, or, like Robert just full of hot air?

 

[Red Baker]

Actually your idea is wrong there.
The only saved person was the one who bore fruit to God, none of the others did.

Calvin called it the perseverance of the saints.

I'm not going to debate it here in this thread, but I'm 100% convinced that ALL four were children of God, yet only one group were frutifull~the parable of the sower is given for us to heed take how we hear the word of God and the measure we need to take to make sure what we hear remains in us so we CAN BEAR fruit. Selah

 

[Red Baker]

The only ones that are saved in the New Testament are those that have accepted Christ as their savior. That is the beginning of all understanding of the scriptures, Jesus said, "That whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. This is basic Christianity.

Now some want to try and fit Calvinism and a myriad of other beliefs into this and in doing that they have perverted basic Christianity, and the Gospel. I let the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ call all things into question, Not a few questionable scriptures.

Robert, you sound like Jimmy Swaggart and his new found gospel that he came up with to reinvent himself after his terrible fall into sin, not once, but twice.

On SBN they constantly use the term "accept Christ"~no where in the NT will you find those words used in the sense in which you and others used that phrase, no where! Sinners do not have the power to accept Christ, unless it is freely given unto them by God's power. It is written:

Ephesians 1:6~"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."​

Election and predestination to justify and adopt some is to praise the glory of His grace. God did not elect and predestinate to save because He felt bad for condemned rebels. God elected and predestinated because it maximizes praise for the glory of His grace. Grace is demerited favor! We all deserve the lake of fire, which is the second death! He chose us His eternal son!

If a person can ever tire of singing about the grace of God, they do not know His grace yet! If we want to fulfill our purpose in life, then we must choose the ways we can praise His grace! If a person do not like to praise His grace now, what will they do in heaven (Eph 2:7)?

Sorry to inform you, no one in heaven will be looking up any soul winner to congratulate them as Saviour! God will not share His glory with any other, especially for eternal life (I Cor 1:29-31). All the attention and affection in heaven will be for God and His grace in Jesus Christ!

God made us acceptable in His sight by choosing us in Christ Jesus in eternity past. The beloved here is Jesus Christ, the beloved Son of God (Matthew 3:17; 12:18; 17:5).

It is not whether you have accepted God, but whether God has made you acceptable!

This verse reveals the utter folly, heresy, and vanity of the modern invitational system and folks believing they have accepted Christ while being at enmity against him...how deceive can one be !!

It is the grace of God “wherein” we are chosen in Jesus Christ and made acceptable.