jiggyfly said:
Looking at the scripture accounts of times past paints a bit of a different picture than what your suggesting here. If God's justice was/is satisfied by punishment for sin then in every case we would see death, correct?
Yet while this maybe the result in some cases it is not true in all. What of Cain? How about King Saul or King David? When I look at the scriptures dealing with law and justice I see that restitution and restoration is God's preferred outcome and punishment is simply a means of correction to bring restitution.
Do you refute John's statement in John 1:29 concerning Jesus?
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
John 1:29 (NLT)
That is a good observation you have made.
Another point to consider is that If wrath "must" be satisfied in order that sin be forgiven then is sin truly forgiven?
Let's say I owe Jiggyfly $100.
Jiggyfly comes to me and wants his money and I tell him I simply cannot pay the debt due. Then out of nowhere Rach approaches Jiggyfly and gives him a $100 and says, "this is for Scott."
Jiggyfly takes the $100 and says to me, "Scott, you don't me me anything."
Now was my debt forgiven?
It is the same with sin and forgiveness. If God requires that the debt accrued for sin (wages of sin is death) be satisfied in order for the debt to be discharges then there is simply no forgiveness. This is one of the major problems of the Penal Substitution model of the atonement and adherents to the doctrine cannot answer this point.
To make it even clearer Jesus spoke this parable...
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is
the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon,
one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then
the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
In the above parable the the debt is freely forgiven without any requirement for a payment. Thus the debt is not "satisfied."
Likewise when the forgiven servant refuses to forgive his fellow servant the lord becomes angry and reinstates the debt. This parable is a direct refutation of the Penal Substitution model of the death of Christ. it also causes major problems for both the Satisfaction and Moral Government views.
The death of Christ simply was not a penalty payment. The death of Christ was a sin offering whereby sinners were purchased (or ransomed) from their enslavement to sin (the blood purges the former sins from the conscience). Sin holds dominion over a sinner for the wages of sin is death, Christ purchased humanity from the dominion of sin thus granting us the Ministry of Reconciliation.
Sinners thus have the opportunity to disassociate themselves with the "old man" who "serves sin" by "putting on the new man" and thus becoming a "servant of righteousness." The methodology of this transfer is via a death and rebirth.
We die to sin that we may live for God.
What the Reformers did is try and force their knowledge of "judicial law" into the Bible (many were lawyers). They found Anselm's Satisfaction (approx 12th century) view appealing but to make more sense of it they added the aspect of judicial punishment. Thus the entire concept of the death of Christ was shifted from a model that people are intrinsically participatory to a model where people are spectators. Thus the doctrine of being "saved in sin" was cemented into theology and any challenge to the fallacy would be considered "adding to the finished work of Christ."
This is why Reformed Theology is so dangerous because of the inbuilt safeguards against the truth. Any person who stands up in a congregation and challenges the fundamentals of the theological framework will be deemed a heretic. This is one reason that "well intentioned" Arminian's never seem to get anywhere when refuting Calvinism, they simply don't understand the the underlying system of error and how deep the rabbit hole actually goes.
Here is the end of an interesting parable taught by Jesus about entering the kingdom.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And
when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend,
how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
In this parable we have a man who approaches the king without a wedding garment. In Revelation there is this very interesting passage...
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white:
for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write,
Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
There are so many people today who base their salvation on Penal Substitution being true. They sincerely believe that their sin was transferred to Jesus and that Jesus was punished in their place thus resulting in the wrath being satisfied (their past, present and future sins all paid for in their minds) and they also believe that the righteousness of Jesus has been credited to their account. This transaction is the underlying foundation of their whole theology. Yet what if it is not true? What if it is actually a satanic deception so insidious that it could fool the very elect if it were possible?
What if the truth was that one is actually reconciled to God through repentance and faith whereby the rebellion is actually 100% forsaken and thus all known sin ceases?
What if then an individual who has forsaken their rebellion is then in a position to fully yield to God whereby the righteousness of God can then manifest through them?
What if these people stood blameless before God not only because they had their consciences cleansed by the blood of Christ (and thus their former sins washed away) but they also walked in union with Christ with a pure heart loving God with all their heart, soul and mind and their neighbour as themselves.
Just imagine that these are the people at the wedding feast who are found acceptable while others who "think" they have been reconciled to God due to a belief in a forensic cloak of Christ are actually naked and still have the wrath abiding on them?
Could it be possible?
Truth is stranger than the fictions people believe as truth.
God bless.