Calvinism

[Waiting on him]

God does discipline us. I never said otherwise.

Sctipture tells us two things here -

1. God disciplines those who are His but they are NEVER objects of His wrath.

2. Those who are not His are not disciplined, and they ARE objects of His wrath.

This is not David speaking it is Jesus.

 

[John Caldwell]

Unless of course it doesn't change the meaning.


In the context it is. What is the payment for your sin? What gets dished out to you for your sin? It is a penalty. No different than getting caught speeding. What is the payment for speeding? A fine. And that fine is a penalty. That penalty is a punishment. It all means the same thing John no matter how you try to philosophize it.


Nothing has been redefined here, you just willfully ignore the plain and obvious meaning to uphold your ridiculous theology.


Professing themselves to be wise.....



1. This is false. It depends on the context.
2. Again, context.
3. What are you referring to?
4. Again, what are you referring to?
5. Who has said that? Doctrine can be true or false.
6. In the context of Romans 6, absolutely.

The problem it does change the meaning. Stop trying to give God a hand and take Him for what is written.

 

[John Caldwell]

This is not David speaking it is Jesus.

It was both. Read the entire Psalm.

Jesus did grow up under discipline.

 

[reformed1689]

The problem it does change the meaning. Stop trying to give God a hand and take Him for what is written.

John if you think it changes the meaning you are kidding yourself.

 

[Waiting on him]

It was both. Read the entire Psalm.

Jesus did grow up under discipline.

Psalm 118:15 KJV
[15] The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the Lord doeth valiantly.

This is not David, this is God speaking outside of time.
Tecarta Bible

 

[Mjh29]

The problem it does change the meaning. Stop trying to give God a hand and take Him for what is written.

God needs no man's hand. However, what you are peddling in the marketplace is not the truth, friend.

We earn death from sin, and we have nothing in us that can pay it off. Only Christ can pay this debt for us, by His Blood.

 

[Waiting on him]

He the Lord chastened Him Jesus sore.

 

[Mjh29]

The Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter 8 Section 5

The Lord Jesus, by His perfect obedience and sacrifice of Himself, which He, through the eternal Spirit, once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of His Father;(1) and purchased, not only reconciliation, but an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for all those whom the Father hath given unto Him.(2)
(1) Ro 5:19; Heb 9:14,16; Heb 10:14; Eph 5:2; Ro 3:25,26 (2) Da 9:24,26; Col 1:19,20; Eph 1:11,14; Jn 17:2; Heb 9:12,15

 

[John Caldwell]

John if you think it changes the meaning you are kidding yourself.

David,

I cannot understand why you believe "wage" means "punishment". I do not know why you believe it appropriate to change the actual word for something you believe it implies (to me, this seems dishonest).

So lets approach it this way:

Scripture states the "wages" of sin are death.

Some view this as a "consequence" in that they hold that through sin death entered the world.

You believe the verse shoyld have been written that the "penalty" for sin is death as you believe (by your admission) this points to a punishment and therefore Christ was punished.

Why do you believe a more narrow word denoting punishment should be used?

For example - Is it exegesis (because of the actual text) or eisegesis (because God punished Christ instead of punishing us)?

 

[John Caldwell]

He the Lord chastened Him Jesus sore.

He has me as well by hiding the dictionary from a few Calvinists here - not as a punishment for a wrong doing but to teach me patience

 

[reformed1689]

The Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter 8 Section 5

The Lord Jesus, by His perfect obedience and sacrifice of Himself, which He, through the eternal Spirit, once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of His Father;(1) and purchased, not only reconciliation, but an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for all those whom the Father hath given unto Him.(2)
(1) Ro 5:19; Heb 9:14,16; Heb 10:14; Eph 5:2; Ro 3:25,26 (2) Da 9:24,26; Col 1:19,20; Eph 1:11,14; Jn 17:2; Heb 9:12,15

Yeah Romans 3:25 is a pretty good verse to start at about Christ taking penalty for us.

 

[Mjh29]

I cannot understand why you believe "wage" means "punishment". I do not know why you believe it appropriate to change the actual word for something you believe it implies (to me, this seems dishonest).

Why do you believe that Jesus Christ mean the Second Person of the Trinity? Or in the Trinity at all?

So lets approach it this way:

Scripture states the "wages" of sin are death.

Some view this as a "consequence" in that they hold that through sin death entered the world.

You believe the verse shoyld have been written that the "penalty" for sin is death as you believe (by your admission) this points to a punishment and therefore Christ was punished.

Why do you believe a more narrow word denoting punishment should be used?

Simple: He doesn't. What he is saying is that the distinction you are trying to make is petty at best, and has absolutely 0 grounds.

The wages of sin is death. What you earn from sin is death. Christ then had to beat this debt on the Cross, because His blood is the only payment that would suffice.

So call it what you will; it means the same thing, even if you don't believe it does.
Christ had to bear the debt/punishment for sin on the cross.

 

[reformed1689]

I cannot understand why you believe "wage" means "punishment". I do not know why you believe it appropriate to change the actual word for something you believe it implies (to me, this seems dishonest).

Context John, context.

Scripture states the "wages" of sin are death.

We agree.

Some view this as a "consequence" in that they hold that through sin death entered the world.

Anyone who is honest should view this as consequence.

You believe the verse shoyld have been written that the "penalty" for sin is death as you believe (by your admission) this points to a punishment and therefore Christ was punished.

No, I'm fine with the way it was written. Strawman.

 

[John Caldwell]

Why do you believe that Jesus Christ mean the Second Person of the Trinity? Or in the Trinity at all?

John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

 

[reformed1689]

John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

Last I checked that is only 2 out of the 3.

 

[John Caldwell]

Context John, context.


We agree.


Anyone who is honest should view this as consequence.


No, I'm fine with the way it was written. Strawman.

It is not a strawman, David. It is a question.

Why do you believe that death is a punishment for sin rather than a consequence?

Why redefine "wage"?

 

[Mjh29]

John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

Well, that just means that Jesus IS the father.

 

[John Caldwell]

Last I checked that is only 2 out of the 3.

That was all I was asked....and 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

Genesis 1 (among other passages) speaks of the Spirit of God.

 

[John Caldwell]

Well, that just means that Jesus IS the father.

If that is what you believe it means that is fine. I question your hermeneutics (that would be "I am the Father").

 

[reformed1689]

It is not a strawman, David. It is a question.

Why do you believe that death is a punishment for sin rather than a consequence?

Why redefine "wage"?

Wages of sin is death. The punishment for sin is death. Why do I think this is what it means? Because of the rest of the verse. In other words, CONTEXT. But the gift of God is eternal life. In other words, because Jesus took the payment/punishment/consequence/wage for sin. We get to have eternal life. We no longer have to be punished by death, it is a corporal punishment, because Christ did it in our place. The debt was satisfied.