And you do a good job of convincing me that Amil is not the correct view.
Can a tare become saved?
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About these tares planted by Satan, who somehow make it into the church. They can be a source of great friction and wrangling by men against the truth. As posted above about these false teachers, they are treacherous and can speak smooth and oily words deceiving the simple minded.
I have known just a few in decades and they tear up the true sheep.
All the ones who leave, John the apostle declares were NOT of us, they are antichrists. That would be those who departed the faith in unbelief.
In other words, they were NOT OF GOD. The Holy Spirit was not living inside of them. They had never been converted. They were outwardly professing, Paul calls them false brethren.
1 John 2
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
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2 Corinthians 11:25-27 New King James Version
25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness—
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They really are satanic.
And I suppose such also deceive other tares in churches, but God know those who are His, and His promise is they will continue on in genuine faith. Entire cult churches exist, as we well know.
Romans 16
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
I have known just a few in decades and they tear up the true sheep.
All the ones who leave, John the apostle declares were NOT of us, they are antichrists. That would be those who departed the faith in unbelief.
In other words, they were NOT OF GOD. The Holy Spirit was not living inside of them. They had never been converted. They were outwardly professing, Paul calls them false brethren.
1 John 2
Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
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2 Corinthians 11:25-27 New King James Version
25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness—
**********************************
They really are satanic.
And I suppose such also deceive other tares in churches, but God know those who are His, and His promise is they will continue on in genuine faith. Entire cult churches exist, as we well know.
Romans 16
Avoid Divisive Persons
17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord [d]Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and [e]simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
There's a problem with the question. You assume that people around the world today are either wheat or tares.
The verses written in the 1st century applied to Israel/Edom at that time. History tells us the Edomites had merged into Israel. They self-identified as Israelites. But they weren't truly. The parable foretells a sorting that would weed out the Edomites from the real Israelites. That happened already.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ok, thanks for that view, I appreciate it. This is the first time I have heard about this, I’m going need to take a closer look at it before I can make any comments about it.
One thing I can say for now though is I do agree it applies to the first century, which can be used as instruction and doctrine but not directly applicable for us today.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Nope. Here's where we strongly disagree. In my view, it was prior to about 33 AD that there were different burdens on Jews than there were on Gentiles and there has never been different burdens on Jews than there were on Gentiles in the church because there is "neither Jew nor Gentile" in the church.
Dude, who cares what people did after the old covenant was made obsolete by the blood of Christ?! Nothing can change the fact that it was made obsolete by His blood no matter what happened after that. I don't know why you can't understand that. No one was obligated to be under the old covenant after it was made obsolete. Did it take some time for the Jews to realize that? Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it was already true even before many of them realized it.
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Goodness sakes, where did I say that? Nowhere. No, what that means, if one person is correct rather than both being wrong, is that one is getting his or her understanding from the Holy Spirit and one is not. It's possible to have the Holy Spirit but to neglect to rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding at times. All I see from you is talk about human logic, which is fallible. Do you ask God for wisdom about these things (James 1:5-7)?
So, I am supposed to try to kill anyone who I believe is a tare? That's what I'm getting from what you're saying. It may very well not be what you're saying at all, but that's how it comes across.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Well, I guess we both do a good job of something when talking to each other. Not exactly what we're hoping for, though.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Not in the least.
Remember though the believer is lost in time until they get saved- their salvation is assured because God said this:
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
the believer is also chosen to be holy and without blame before God founded the world.
Acts 15:28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Who am I supposed to believe, you or the Holy Spirit?
Well I think the book of Acts is extremely important as it gives details about what happened and what people did just after the old covenant became invalid.
Nope, you’re supposed to recognize that the tares were people who held onto the old covenant after the cross. As I said the problems only arise when you place all the unsaved as being tares.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Okay, so you are talking about how it is from God's perspective, so when we talk about this we need to specify what perspective we're talking about. Our temporal, real time perspective or God's eternal perspective.
You had said this:
So, in Matthew 13:38 Jesus described the tares as being the children of the wicked one (the evil). I showed how John described all unsaved sinners as being children of the devil in 1 John 3:8-10. So, from a real time perspective someone who is currently a child of the devil (an unsaved sinner) obviously can repent and become saved and a child of the kingdom (wheat) instead. But, from God's perspective the person who ends up being a child of the kingdom even after previously being a child of the devil is counted as wheat.Ronald Nolette said:
So, it makes sense that we should look at the parable from that perspective instead of from a temporal real time perspective or else it can cause confusion since the parable gives no indication of the tares being able to turn into wheat despite the fact that children of the devil can repent and become children of the kingdom.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
We both are supposed to believe the Holy Spirit and both believe that is what we are doing. And, yet, we do not interpret that passage the same.
How about you try interpreting the passage correctly in context without it causing contradictions with any other scripture? Did you consider that? Why would that passage indicate that they were still under obligation to be under the old covenant while others say otherwise? Does that not matter to you? Are contradictions okay with you?
Read the passage again. Where does it say that they were obligated to continue keeping all 613 commandments of the law of Moses? I don't see that there. I see the mention of just a few "necessary things" that they should abstain from doing. It's quite a stretch to take that to mean that they were being told to follow all 613 commandments of the law of Moses. You are interpreting the passage with extreme doctrinal bias while not taking other scripture which says that the old covenant was made obsolete (no longer in effect, dead, useless, not required) by the blood of Christ.
And where does it say anyone was required to continue being under the old covenant instead of the new covenant after the death of Christ? It surely does not say that in Acts 15:28-29!
Where is that indicated? It says they are children of the wicked one, not children of the old covenant.
The problems arise when you interpret a passage in such a way that contradicts other passages, which is exactly what you're doing with your interpretation of the parable.
We know the old covenant didn’t just vanish after the cross because Hebrews 8:13 says it was ready to vanish at the time it was written. So we have to make sure we don’t contradict that verse.
We know that James, Peter, and John were to go to the circumcision while Paul and Barnabas to the heathen in Galatians 2:9 and we are never told that agreement was rescind. We have to make sure we don’t contradict that verse.
Then in Acts 21:20 James says there were many thousands of Jews which were zealous for the law and believed. We have to make sure we don’t contradict that verse.
I didn’t say it was a requirement. If a person wanted to remain with their fellow Jews they would’ve voluntarily put themselves under the law else they wouldn’t have been allowed to remain with them. Again what are you thinking? Could a Jew just eat bacon and all the other Jews say it wasn’t an issue?
1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
Some people thought it offensive to eat bacon and it would’ve made them to offend if they did eat bacon. Hello! The old covenant didn’t just go away after the cross, there was a transition period.
So why are you not allowing a view, that you think is in contradiction, to grow with the rest of the wheat on this forum? Don’t you follow your own beliefs on how the parable is to be interpreted?
PS95
Well-Known Member
99.9% of JWs will tell you they are not born again. They don't believe that anyone is, but their group who go to heaven to rule over them.
JWs "marvel" at being born a new of the spirit. It's more like they scoff at the thought.
They also say that they are not in the New Covenant and see belowfor some more.
I'd say what you have in common with JWs is really only sleep in afterlife. Here is a shortlist for insight--
www.christianityboard.com
JWs "marvel" at being born a new of the spirit. It's more like they scoff at the thought.
They also say that they are not in the New Covenant and see belowfor some more.
I'd say what you have in common with JWs is really only sleep in afterlife. Here is a shortlist for insight--
Dont belong to Jesus Christ.
When a JW (Jehovahs witness) comes to your door many are left confused and frustrated unable to pinpoint what the problem was exactly. Here is a list of some things Jws HAPPILY DENY. (and you can not possibly have either). They will try to convert you to their other hope, the "earthly class"...
www.christianityboard.com
From Blindness to Freedom to Hope.
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have m…brakelite.wordpress.com
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Read the verse again.
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Do you differentiate between the old covenant being made obsolete and disappearing? The verse clearly indicates that it had been previously made obsolete before this was written but was going to "soon disappear".
The first thing to determine is what does it mean for the old covenant to be made obsolete?
obsolete (adjective): no longer produced or used; out of date.
It means the old covenant was out of date and no longer in effect when Jesus shed His blood to establish the new covenant. The old covenant was made useless and no longer in force. It was nailed to the cross (Col 2:14). It was dead.
So, then what does it mean that it had not yet disappeared? All that means is that the leftover traces of the dead and obsolete old covenant were still in view, such as the temple buildings where the old covenant sacrifices were performed. That's all that means.
To try to say that the old covenant was still in effect after Christ's death is an insult to what Christ's death accomplished. Scripture says He took away the first (old) covenant when He established the second (new) covenant (Hebrews 8:6-7, Hebrews 10:9-10).
What are you thinking that proves? That proves nothing in relation to what we're talking about.
That's right. Does that verse say they were required to keep all 613 commandments of the law? No. You keep reading things into these verses that aren't there. Them being zealous for the law does not mean they were under the old covenant. It took some time for them to realize that the new covenant replaced the old covenant and set them free from having to try to keep all those commandments, which no one but Jesus can do.
What are you thinking by saying the imaginary old covenant age (scripture never refers to such a thing) ended in 70 AD when it's clear that the old covenant was made obsolete in about 33 AD instead?
Nonsense! You are blatantly contradicting the scriptures which say it was made obsolete at the cross! Why are you doing that? Do you actually think that the animal sacrifices of the old covenant were still necessary after Christ made His once for all sacrifice by shedding His blood of the new covenant?
LOL. What are you talking about? You think I should kill everyone who disagrees with me about this? LOL. I'm kidding, but I truly have no idea of what you're talking about here.
Huh? Of course. In my view there are both saved people (children of the kingdom, wheat) and unsaved people (children of the wicked one, tares) in the world and that is what Jesus wants to allow to be the case until the end of the age when He will return and have the tares cast into the fire while the wheat inherit "the kingdom of their Father".
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
In the 2nd century BC, the Jewish king John Hyrcanus forcibly converted the Edomites (Idumeans) to Judaism. The Edomites embraced Judaism, and integrated themselves into Judea. The Herodian dynasty were Edomites and eventually replaced the Hasmoneans as the kings over Judah (at Caesar's command). The Idumeans were very pious in their observation of the Jewish Law, and eager to be seen as "legitimate" Jews. This is perhaps why Herod's biggest building project was the re-modeling of the Jewish temple. During the Roman conflict, they took sides with the Jewish Zealot faction, which basically got them killed by the Romans.
Anyhow, the Bible doesn't make a lot of direct references to the "Edomite problem" likely because it was dangerous to do so while there were still Herodian kings in power. There are a number of indirect references to it, such as this parable, or Jesus calling Nathanael "an Israelite indeed" hinting that some people weren't, or Paul saying that "not all Israel" is really Israel.
In secular literature from the period, the two great Pharisees Hillel and Shammai had a notable argument over "who is a true Israelite?" which also addresses the problem somewhat indirectly. Jesus gives his own take on the well-known question in John 6-8.
If you want to search it out for yourself, I'd recommend reading about John Hyrcanus, Antipater, Herod, Idumeans, and the First Jewish-Roman War.
HYRCANUS, JOHN (JOHANAN) I. - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.
Here’s the thing, you constantly telling others why their view is incorrect and how they need to see the Amil view and not allowing a different view to grow, contradicts your interpretation of the parable which specifically says to allow tares to grow together. It’s kinda like a fat pastor giving a sermon on how to have self control and not be a glutton. It just doesn’t work.
For me to even consider your view any further you need to get rid of the obvious contradiction.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Never have I said that no one should be allowed to have any other view but Amill. Obviously, I believe Amill is true and argue in favor of it, but it's not an essential doctrine for salvation and I would never say that no one should be allowed to believe otherwise.
You have created a contradiction in your own imagination. I have never stated what you're saying. You misrepresent my view and me in general often and I wish you would stop doing that.
You're coming across like you are trying to make this into me supposedly saying that the wheat are Amills and the tares are Premills and Postmills or some nonsense like that. Stop it.
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