Can a tare become saved?

[amigo de christo]

The wheat and tares is similar to Paul's teaching in Romans 8

The wheat receive mercy from God to be saved, and the tares were hardened.


14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

v22 are the tares

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

v23 are the wheat

23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”

26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Present Condition of Israel​

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Thanks for the lovely reminder my friend . wanna hear something scary , THE TARES lead this people
and most love to hear their false love , judge not correct not sermons . THAT TOO is a fact scott .
No matter if it costs me even prison or death , THIS SHEEP gonna warn and do all by grace for the good of this people .
JESUS dont hold rainbows , hundred dollar bills and kiss korans and budda statues and behave like we all serve the same GOD .
JESUS didnt come TO DISHONOR the FATHER or allow us TO DISHONOR HIM .
Rather odd many today sure seem to think HE came to save us FROM THE TRUTH
and allow us to reign in SIN and UNBELIEF . sorry scott but what i jus said was TRUTH . WE gots to get back into the bible .
BUT you are right . TARES GET HARDNED , but always remember THEY DID IT TO THEMSELVES
as it is written TODAY if ye shall hear HIS VOICE harden NOT YOUR HEARTS
or as pual reminded the church , WE must exhort one another daily LEST ANY BECOMES HARDENED
though what scott ,through what , THE DECEIETFULNESS OF SIN . but thanks to OSAS most disregaurd that too .
AND before you remind me of what i already KNOW and have long known by grace
THAT THOSE WHO are HIS do remain and any who comes out from amongst us was never truly of us . WHICH I KNOW IS TRUE
let me remind you that all those saved BORN AGAIN apostles WARNED THE BELIEVERS as DID JESUS
YE MUST CONTINUE TO THE END . so WHY DONT WE TRY WARNING and REMINDING THE BELIEVERS the same .
MANY men have duped the heck out of people . AS for me by grace
I SEEE every WORD , reminder , warning as GOOD for the soul .

 

[Scott Downey]

Thanks for the lovely reminder my friend . wanna hear something scary , THE TARES lead this people
and most love to hear their false love , judge not correct not sermons . THAT TOO is a fact scott .
No matter if it costs me even prison or death , THIS SHEEP gonna warn and do all by grace for the good of this people .
JESUS dont hold rainbows , hundred dollar bills and kiss korans and budda statues and behave like we all serve the same GOD .
JESUS didnt come TO DISHONOR the FATHER or allow us TO DISHONOR HIM .
Rather odd many today sure seem to think HE came to save us FROM THE TRUTH
and allow us to reign in SIN and UNBELIEF . sorry scott but what i jus said was TRUTH . WE gots to get back into the bible .
BUT you are right . TARES GET HARDNED , but always remember THEY DID IT TO THEMSELVES
as it is written TODAY if ye shall hear HIS VOICE harden NOT YOUR HEARTS
or as pual reminded the church , WE must exhort one another daily LEST ANY BECOMES HARDENED
though what scott ,through what , THE DECEIETFULNESS OF SIN . but thanks to OSAS most disregaurd that too .
AND before you remind me of what i already KNOW and have long known by grace
THAT THOSE WHO are HIS do remain and any who comes out from amongst us was never truly of us . WHICH I KNOW IS TRUE
let me remind you that all those saved BORN AGAIN apostles WARNED THE BELIEVERS as DID JESUS
YE MUST CONTINUE TO THE END . so WHY DONT WE TRY WARNING and REMINDING THE BELIEVERS the same .
MANY men have duped the heck out of people . AS for me by grace
I SEEE every WORD , reminder , warning as GOOD for the soul .

God is the righteous judge of all the earth, everything he does is always right and good and glorious.
Even the ministry of condemnation was glorious, but the ministry of grace far excels in glory.

It is the Spirit which gives life, the flesh prophets nothing, you must be born again by the Spirit and become alive to God or He will not be your Father and you will not believe or be saved. God saves His own special people whom He called out of darkness and into His marvelous light.

Jesus called us out of the world to belong to Him and be of His family.

1 Peter 2

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who [b]are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”
8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
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John 6
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
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2 Corinthians 3, The New Covenant God established for us far exceeds in glory that what came before, even with all the prophets and mighty miracle God did in delivering Israel into the promised land, and all the wonderful promises and all the words the Lord has spoken through His prophets to us. And we have been granted by God the Father to have our part in this New Covenant established in the blood of Christ His Son, shed for us.

The Spirit, Not the Letter​

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the [a]Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant​

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.

16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as [b]by the Spirit of the Lord.

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It is good to meditate on the words of the Lord, day and night, keep them always before you, keep Him always in your thoughts, and give Him thanks for all He has done for you.

 

[grafted branch]

The field IS THE WORLD , NOT the CHURCH my friend . Lets also try and REMEMBER THAT .
but sadly in most all cases the CHURCH has BECOME the world and the tares not only sit in them
THEY RULE OVER THEM . this is a fact . THEY RUN OFF ANYTHING that holds a bible and tries to correct .
THEY SEE IT HAS HATE and non loving . GET in the bible . WILL EVERYONE just please get back into the bible again .
learn for ourselves that which most all no longer teach in the churches , THE RIGHTLY DIVIDED TRUTH . please .

You bring up a good point, in Matthew 13:38 it says the field is the world. In Matthew 13:24 it says a man sowed seed in His field. Then in Matthew 13:37 it says He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man.

So if we conclude that the field is the whole entire world then the whole entire world belonged to the Son of man when He sowed. That would imply that the kingdoms of this world had already become the kingdoms of our Lord when both the Son of man sowed and Satan sowed.

That conclusion doesn’t seem to fit with any of the end time views. Also in Matthew 13:37 the word “soweth” is a present tense verb so the Son of man was sowing at that time (prior to the cross).

How would you interpret the world belonging to the Son of man prior to the cross?

 

[Aunty Jane]

We are born with an hereditary proclivity to selfishness, which is sin. That sin nature needs to be dealt with, and it doesn't disappear through our good works out self determination.

I never suggested that it did….The gift is free but it’s conditional…..as was life itself in Eden. In order to keep living Adam and his wife had to obey one simple command…..they disobeyed and lost the right to live….death would inevitably come. Death is the opposite of life.

We cannot self operate to change our hearts. Which is why Jesus said, ye must be born again. Spiritual rebirth is the absolute essential step towards the kingdom of heaven. And the rebirth comes only through repentance, and faith in Christ.

What does it mean to be “born again”…..because so many people here claim to have had it happen to them, but none seem to be in agreement as to how it happened, and what it means in real terms.
I have a totally different understanding as to what it means to be a “born again” Christian.

It is not something that happens in the flesh….those so chosen to be adopted as “sons of God”, who are to reign with Christ in his Kingdom, (Rev 20:6) are given a token of their inheritance whilst they are still in the flesh on earth, but the spiritual rebirth happens when they are taken to heaven….

Paul’s letter to the Ephesians explains it…..

”Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us. For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph 1:3-14 RSV)

If you examine the words carefully you can see a picture emerge concerning those who are chosen as “saints”. God foreordained that this group should assist Christ in an administration that will bring all things together in heaven and on earth. He does not foreordain individuals, but only the group as a whole. Why is this important? Because of free will (some would fall away making a replacement necessary), and tying it in with the prophesy in Gen 3:15 we see that right from the beginning of man’s defection, (the “founding of the world” of sinful mankind) God had his rescue mission all worked out…..God’s kingdom would being all redeemed humanity back to God….but this also affected the angels as it was one of their own who first rebelled.

What God would implement was a way to bring everything back to the way it should have been in the beginning. The mystery of his will unfolded gradually over time, and was revealed to those chosen ones who were “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit”…this ”sealing” was their guarantee, or a token given in advance of receiving their inheritance, ‘until they “acquired“ it’.

This means that “the chosen ones” were anointed with God’s spirit in readiness for their eventual transformation into spirit bodies at their resurrection, when they are “born again” in a different body, even though they are the same person. This is what it means to be “born again”…..the sealing happens first….as a token of their choosing, and when they are taken to heaven it will be in a body that can dwell in the presence of God….the same kind of body in which Jesus was raised. Jesus was given back the kind of body he had before his earthly mission, so he did not need to be born again…he was returning home, but his chosen ones will be going to a new home……. with Jesus in heaven…..one that he went to “prepare” for them.

 

[Brakelite]

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

If a tare can’t be excommunicated then a tare can’t represent all the unsaved in general, a tare could only represents a certain kind of unsaved person, right? So any interpretation of the parable that sees the tares as all the unsaved has to be incorrect, right? I hope we can agree on this point.

Agreed. We are talking about the church, not the world in general.

 

[Brakelite]

Hitler was a water baptized/confirmed Roman Catholic.........just like the next Pope.
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View attachment 62235

Mmm. As were many of his senior officials.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Okay, Mr. Internet Policeman. You don't know how frustrating it is to explain something to someone as many times as I have explained Amil to him and he still misrepresents it. So, I can react to that however I want.

I'm trying to help you here. Emotional arguments are logical fallacies, not reasoned arguments. Appeals to emotion are generally not preferred in rational discussions or debates because they can cloud judgment and lead to biased reasoning rather than objective analysis. While emotions are powerful and can be persuasive, relying too heavily on emotional appeal can distort facts, oversimplify complex issues, or manipulate audiences.

Before we jump to another passage, let's be clear on John's intended meaning in Revelation 20. Here, John depicts an angel coming down from heaven, throwing Satan into the abyss. In the New Testament, the Abyss is often depicted as a deep, bottomless pit or a place of confinement for evil spirits. The Greek word "abussos" means "bottomless" or "immeasurable depth," and it appears in several passages, particularly in the context of spiritual warfare and divine judgment.

In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is bound and cast into the Abyss for a thousand years, "so that he might not deceive the nations any longer." This suggests that his ability to influence the world is entirely cut off while confined.

Note John's mention of an Angel who came down from heaven. Why did he come down from heaven? He came down to the earth because that is where Satan currently exists.

Heaven holds profound significance because, as Jesus and his followers understood, its main distinction from earth is eternity. While heaven represents a realm of everlasting existence, earth is a place of fleeting moments and temporal experiences. Everything in heaven is permanent and unchanging, whereas all things on earth are subject to the passage of time and must ultimately fade away. (Matthew 6:19-21)

Jesus describes the casting out of demons as akin to Satan falling from heaven (Luke 10:18). This suggests that while Satan still exerts influence on Earth, that influence is limited and temporary, much like all things on Earth. John depicts this as a war in heaven where Michael and his angels do battle with the Dragon and his angels, and there is no longer a place found for them in heaven.

Matthew 12:26 does not suggest that Satan is incapacitated. In this passage, Jesus addresses the accusation that he casts out demons by the power of Beelzebub (Satan). Logically, if Jesus were working for Beelzebub, he would not be casting out demons, as that would contradict Beelzebub's intent. However, since Jesus is successfully casting out demons, it indicates that he is working against Beelzebub’s purposes.

In Matthew 12:22-30 and Mark 3:20-27, the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub. Jesus refuted this by arguing that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand—meaning that if Satan were casting out his own demons, it would be self-defeating. Instead, Jesus claimed that his ability to cast out demons was evidence of the presence of God's kingdom.

Jesus' argument does not deny the presence of evil forces; rather, it refutes the idea that he operates under their authority. By casting out demons, he demonstrates divine power over them, reinforcing the notion that God's kingdom is overcoming darkness. His statement about a kingdom divided against itself suggests that Satan wouldn't logically fight against his own influence.

Satan is on earth, where Jesus and his followers are engaged in a spiritual battle. (Ephesians 6:12, 1 Peter 5:8, James 4:7) His influence is now limited to the earth. This aligns with passages where Jesus and his followers actively confront evil, whether through casting out demons, resisting temptation, or spreading God's truth. These verses suggest an ongoing struggle, where believers are called to stand firm against deception, temptation, and opposition. Rather than a direct physical battle, it's often framed as a fight of faith, truth, and righteousness against spiritual forces.

In Revelation 12:7-9, 12, Satan is limited to Earth. In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is cast into the Abyss. Revelation 20 presents a different image, where Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years so that he cannot deceive the nations. Unlike his presence on earth, where he wages war, his confinement in the Abyss represents the suppression of his influence.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Would you agree that Jesus had to take the power of death away from Satan (Hebrews 2:14-15) and destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8) in order for what you're talking about to happen up until that "new era of darkness" comes, which Amills call "Satan's little season"?

There seems to be a significant misunderstanding in the conversation. Paul contends that Jesus triumphs over the fear of death, rather than overcoming death itself, which is the point you seem to be implying. This distinction highlights the difference between fear and the actual power of death, emphasizing the comfort and hope that Jesus provides in the face of existential dread. Revelation 21:4 describes a future where "death shall be no more." This aligns with the idea that Jesus' victory extends beyond His own resurrection to the eventual elimination of death itself.

Many biblical passages suggest that one of the devil’s tactics is to keep people enslaved to the fear of death. Hebrews 2:14-15 states that Jesus came to "destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death." This implies that fear of death can be a tool of oppression, keeping people in bondage rather than allowing them to live in faith and freedom.

The devil’s influence is sometimes linked to deception, temptation, and fear—things that can keep people from embracing the hope of eternal life. If the devil's work involves keeping people in fear of death, then his influence would still be present in the world, especially where fear, deception, and temptation exist. Even though Jesus overcame death, people can still struggle with doubt, fear, and spiritual battles, which suggests the devil is still active in some capacity.

It is a prison metaphor.

Prison is a place where a mob boss, for example, can still exert influence over his territory. However, John's portrayal of Satan being cast into a bottomless pit challenges the idea that Satan can maintain any influence. Since Satan is genuinely confined in the Abyss, it logically follows that his influence is completely extinguished.

What is your understanding of the locusts in the bottomless pit in Revelation 9? Many ,including me, believe they symbolically describe fallen angels and it is said they are not loosed from the pit until the fifth trumpet. I don't think it's reasonable to think that the fallen angels are completely inactive for all that time.

If they were active, they wouldn't need to be let go.

Notice that at the time John was writing this, the beast "is not" because it was in the bottomless pit.

The beast "is not" because at the time John was writing, it didn't exist.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All things are possible with God, according to Jesus

Too bad God's Word is not part of the conversation and people are willing to tell perceived tares there is no hope for them and they don't even reach out to people because they believe there is no hope for them.

What a croc of garbage!

Have you read the entire thread? There is a lot of good stuff here.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It also helps to understand what plant or weed Jesus was referring to…..as you said, a plant cannot change from one species to another and these are two very different species…..one is a useful, harmless plant…the other a noxious weed.
The weed in question is believed to be “bearded darnel” and it is a common weed in the Middle East.
It resembles wheat in the early growing phase, so much so that it is almost impossible to tell the difference until it reaches a certain stage, but by then the root systems are so entangled that you cannot uproot the weeds without taking the wheat with them.

It is called “wheat’s evil twin” by some, and in Bible times was used to decimate a neighbors crop to reduce his yield….enemies often did this as sabotage.

It was an excellent illustration because of the characteristics of this weed. It mimicked the wheat until it was well established, and then at the harvest it will decimate the final crop as the weeds are harvested along with the wheat and destroyed. These weeds are counterfeit Christians planted by the devil, so his aim is to decimate the yield at the harvest time, but God already knows which are which….but he has to show us in real life what these counterfeit Christians look like.

I have a question. What if the tare and the wheat is inside of us all. That which bears no profit being of the flesh. And that which is profitable being born of God. the two (weed and the wheat) where that which was born first is earthly. And that which was born last is born from above and is heavenly. For example the old me separated from God, and the take off the old man and put on the New man. If a tare never can become wheat then what of the belief that our old self, our old flesh body (tares)will be resurrected and transformed into a new body transformed into being wheat)? Does that make sense? If the flesh body is transformed into a spiritual body (that being a hope and expectation) then is it a contradiction to say that a tare can never become wheat? Or is the old body done away with?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Right, but you have the tares being allowed to “grow together” <4885> to grow together, increase together. Where does Paul allow the 1 Corinthians 5:11 list to increase together with believers? Answer, nowhere. We are to be separated from them.

Good Point. Paul's point is a bit more nuanced than that. He is concerned that the situation's optics will convey the idea that the church has a lax attitude toward sin and that a person who continues in sin is still considered a "brother." Paul doesn't recommend excommunication, at least not right away. Our first effort should be evangelism, persuasion, counseling, and exhortation. Our goal is to pull someone out of the fire. When someone is formally removed from a religious community, it can create barriers to communication and spiritual guidance, making outreach more difficult.

Despite its challenges, some see disfellowship as necessary in cases of persistent sin. The goal, in theory, is to encourage repentance.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What about allowing tares to grow with wheat? What does that mean? I wouldn’t think that means allowing unrepentant tares to join a church.

This is true theoretically. But remember, Jesus is postulating a case where the wheat and the tares are situated together, and it is difficult to distinguish between them. Spiritually speaking, God allows good and evil to coexist for a time, allowing time for growth and repentance.

The parable of the wheat and the tares powerfully reminds us that judgment belongs to God, not humans. Since we all fall short in various ways (Romans 3:23), distinguishing between true righteousness and deception can be incredibly difficult. Premature conclusions can be dangerous since good and evil can sometimes appear intertwined. The challenge is to live righteously while showing grace, acknowledging that only God sees the heart fully.

Those who want grace, offer grace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think we all know Satan is not saved.

What does this have to do with what I said?

I was talking about this verse...

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

This is talking about the disciples who were given to Jesus by the Father. Satan was not given to Jesus. This is clearly talking about Judas Iscariot. He was one of the disciples who was given to Jesus and he was lost.

 

[grafted branch]

This is true theoretically. But remember, Jesus is postulating a case where the wheat and the tares are situated together, and it is difficult to distinguish between them. Spiritually speaking, God allows good and evil to coexist for a time, allowing time for growth and repentance.

The parable of the wheat and the tares powerfully reminds us that judgment belongs to God, not humans. Since we all fall short in various ways (Romans 3:23), distinguishing between true righteousness and deception can be incredibly difficult. Premature conclusions can be dangerous since good and evil can sometimes appear intertwined. The challenge is to live righteously while showing grace, acknowledging that only God sees the heart fully.

Those who want grace, offer grace.

I agree, it’s not really an all or none situation. Let’s take a drunkard for example. They are on the 1 Corinthians 5 list to be excommunicated but if a person is putting forth effort to stay away from alcohol and has shame and remorse over their chemical addiction then the church should also make every accommodation they can to help that individual.

On the other hand if a drunkard is unrepentant and belligerent that individual should be excommunicated from church activities and dealt with as if they are an unbeliever even if they claim to be a brother or sister in Christ.

We would like all to become saved but sometimes it’s a fine line between when a self proclaimed Christian is doing more damage in the church than good when they fall into one of the situations on the 1 Corinthians 5 list.