Can a tare become saved?

[amigo de christo]

The wheat and tares is similar to Paul's teaching in Romans 8

The wheat receive mercy from God to be saved, and the tares were hardened.


14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

v22 are the tares

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

v23 are the wheat

23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”

26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Present Condition of Israel​

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Thanks for the lovely reminder my friend . wanna hear something scary , THE TARES lead this people
and most love to hear their false love , judge not correct not sermons . THAT TOO is a fact scott .
No matter if it costs me even prison or death , THIS SHEEP gonna warn and do all by grace for the good of this people .
JESUS dont hold rainbows , hundred dollar bills and kiss korans and budda statues and behave like we all serve the same GOD .
JESUS didnt come TO DISHONOR the FATHER or allow us TO DISHONOR HIM .
Rather odd many today sure seem to think HE came to save us FROM THE TRUTH
and allow us to reign in SIN and UNBELIEF . sorry scott but what i jus said was TRUTH . WE gots to get back into the bible .
BUT you are right . TARES GET HARDNED , but always remember THEY DID IT TO THEMSELVES
as it is written TODAY if ye shall hear HIS VOICE harden NOT YOUR HEARTS
or as pual reminded the church , WE must exhort one another daily LEST ANY BECOMES HARDENED
though what scott ,through what , THE DECEIETFULNESS OF SIN . but thanks to OSAS most disregaurd that too .
AND before you remind me of what i already KNOW and have long known by grace
THAT THOSE WHO are HIS do remain and any who comes out from amongst us was never truly of us . WHICH I KNOW IS TRUE
let me remind you that all those saved BORN AGAIN apostles WARNED THE BELIEVERS as DID JESUS
YE MUST CONTINUE TO THE END . so WHY DONT WE TRY WARNING and REMINDING THE BELIEVERS the same .
MANY men have duped the heck out of people . AS for me by grace
I SEEE every WORD , reminder , warning as GOOD for the soul .

 

[Scott Downey]

Thanks for the lovely reminder my friend . wanna hear something scary , THE TARES lead this people
and most love to hear their false love , judge not correct not sermons . THAT TOO is a fact scott .
No matter if it costs me even prison or death , THIS SHEEP gonna warn and do all by grace for the good of this people .
JESUS dont hold rainbows , hundred dollar bills and kiss korans and budda statues and behave like we all serve the same GOD .
JESUS didnt come TO DISHONOR the FATHER or allow us TO DISHONOR HIM .
Rather odd many today sure seem to think HE came to save us FROM THE TRUTH
and allow us to reign in SIN and UNBELIEF . sorry scott but what i jus said was TRUTH . WE gots to get back into the bible .
BUT you are right . TARES GET HARDNED , but always remember THEY DID IT TO THEMSELVES
as it is written TODAY if ye shall hear HIS VOICE harden NOT YOUR HEARTS
or as pual reminded the church , WE must exhort one another daily LEST ANY BECOMES HARDENED
though what scott ,through what , THE DECEIETFULNESS OF SIN . but thanks to OSAS most disregaurd that too .
AND before you remind me of what i already KNOW and have long known by grace
THAT THOSE WHO are HIS do remain and any who comes out from amongst us was never truly of us . WHICH I KNOW IS TRUE
let me remind you that all those saved BORN AGAIN apostles WARNED THE BELIEVERS as DID JESUS
YE MUST CONTINUE TO THE END . so WHY DONT WE TRY WARNING and REMINDING THE BELIEVERS the same .
MANY men have duped the heck out of people . AS for me by grace
I SEEE every WORD , reminder , warning as GOOD for the soul .

God is the righteous judge of all the earth, everything he does is always right and good and glorious.
Even the ministry of condemnation was glorious, but the ministry of grace far excels in glory.

It is the Spirit which gives life, the flesh prophets nothing, you must be born again by the Spirit and become alive to God or He will not be your Father and you will not believe or be saved. God saves His own special people whom He called out of darkness and into His marvelous light.

Jesus called us out of the world to belong to Him and be of His family.

1 Peter 2

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who [b]are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”
8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
*****************************************
John 6
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
*******************************************

2 Corinthians 3, The New Covenant God established for us far exceeds in glory that what came before, even with all the prophets and mighty miracle God did in delivering Israel into the promised land, and all the wonderful promises and all the words the Lord has spoken through His prophets to us. And we have been granted by God the Father to have our part in this New Covenant established in the blood of Christ His Son, shed for us.

The Spirit, Not the Letter​

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the [a]Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant​

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.

16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as [b]by the Spirit of the Lord.

**********************

It is good to meditate on the words of the Lord, day and night, keep them always before you, keep Him always in your thoughts, and give Him thanks for all He has done for you.

 

[grafted branch]

The field IS THE WORLD , NOT the CHURCH my friend . Lets also try and REMEMBER THAT .
but sadly in most all cases the CHURCH has BECOME the world and the tares not only sit in them
THEY RULE OVER THEM . this is a fact . THEY RUN OFF ANYTHING that holds a bible and tries to correct .
THEY SEE IT HAS HATE and non loving . GET in the bible . WILL EVERYONE just please get back into the bible again .
learn for ourselves that which most all no longer teach in the churches , THE RIGHTLY DIVIDED TRUTH . please .

You bring up a good point, in Matthew 13:38 it says the field is the world. In Matthew 13:24 it says a man sowed seed in His field. Then in Matthew 13:37 it says He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man.

So if we conclude that the field is the whole entire world then the whole entire world belonged to the Son of man when He sowed. That would imply that the kingdoms of this world had already become the kingdoms of our Lord when both the Son of man sowed and Satan sowed.

That conclusion doesn’t seem to fit with any of the end time views. Also in Matthew 13:37 the word “soweth” is a present tense verb so the Son of man was sowing at that time (prior to the cross).

How would you interpret the world belonging to the Son of man prior to the cross?

 

[Aunty Jane]

We are born with an hereditary proclivity to selfishness, which is sin. That sin nature needs to be dealt with, and it doesn't disappear through our good works out self determination.

I never suggested that it did….The gift is free but it’s conditional…..as was life itself in Eden. In order to keep living Adam and his wife had to obey one simple command…..they disobeyed and lost the right to live….death would inevitably come. Death is the opposite of life.

We cannot self operate to change our hearts. Which is why Jesus said, ye must be born again. Spiritual rebirth is the absolute essential step towards the kingdom of heaven. And the rebirth comes only through repentance, and faith in Christ.

What does it mean to be “born again”…..because so many people here claim to have had it happen to them, but none seem to be in agreement as to how it happened, and what it means in real terms.
I have a totally different understanding as to what it means to be a “born again” Christian.

It is not something that happens in the flesh….those so chosen to be adopted as “sons of God”, who are to reign with Christ in his Kingdom, (Rev 20:6) are given a token of their inheritance whilst they are still in the flesh on earth, but the spiritual rebirth happens when they are taken to heaven….

Paul’s letter to the Ephesians explains it…..

”Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us. For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph 1:3-14 RSV)

If you examine the words carefully you can see a picture emerge concerning those who are chosen as “saints”. God foreordained that this group should assist Christ in an administration that will bring all things together in heaven and on earth. He does not foreordain individuals, but only the group as a whole. Why is this important? Because of free will (some would fall away making a replacement necessary), and tying it in with the prophesy in Gen 3:15 we see that right from the beginning of man’s defection, (the “founding of the world” of sinful mankind) God had his rescue mission all worked out…..God’s kingdom would being all redeemed humanity back to God….but this also affected the angels as it was one of their own who first rebelled.

What God would implement was a way to bring everything back to the way it should have been in the beginning. The mystery of his will unfolded gradually over time, and was revealed to those chosen ones who were “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit”…this ”sealing” was their guarantee, or a token given in advance of receiving their inheritance, ‘until they “acquired“ it’.

This means that “the chosen ones” were anointed with God’s spirit in readiness for their eventual transformation into spirit bodies at their resurrection, when they are “born again” in a different body, even though they are the same person. This is what it means to be “born again”…..the sealing happens first….as a token of their choosing, and when they are taken to heaven it will be in a body that can dwell in the presence of God….the same kind of body in which Jesus was raised. Jesus was given back the kind of body he had before his earthly mission, so he did not need to be born again…he was returning home, but his chosen ones will be going to a new home……. with Jesus in heaven…..one that he went to “prepare” for them.

 

[Brakelite]

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

If a tare can’t be excommunicated then a tare can’t represent all the unsaved in general, a tare could only represents a certain kind of unsaved person, right? So any interpretation of the parable that sees the tares as all the unsaved has to be incorrect, right? I hope we can agree on this point.

Agreed. We are talking about the church, not the world in general.

 

[Brakelite]

Hitler was a water baptized/confirmed Roman Catholic.........just like the next Pope.
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View attachment 62235

Mmm. As were many of his senior officials.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Okay, Mr. Internet Policeman. You don't know how frustrating it is to explain something to someone as many times as I have explained Amil to him and he still misrepresents it. So, I can react to that however I want.

I'm trying to help you here. Emotional arguments are logical fallacies, not reasoned arguments. Appeals to emotion are generally not preferred in rational discussions or debates because they can cloud judgment and lead to biased reasoning rather than objective analysis. While emotions are powerful and can be persuasive, relying too heavily on emotional appeal can distort facts, oversimplify complex issues, or manipulate audiences.

Before we jump to another passage, let's be clear on John's intended meaning in Revelation 20. Here, John depicts an angel coming down from heaven, throwing Satan into the abyss. In the New Testament, the Abyss is often depicted as a deep, bottomless pit or a place of confinement for evil spirits. The Greek word "abussos" means "bottomless" or "immeasurable depth," and it appears in several passages, particularly in the context of spiritual warfare and divine judgment.

In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is bound and cast into the Abyss for a thousand years, "so that he might not deceive the nations any longer." This suggests that his ability to influence the world is entirely cut off while confined.

Note John's mention of an Angel who came down from heaven. Why did he come down from heaven? He came down to the earth because that is where Satan currently exists.

Heaven holds profound significance because, as Jesus and his followers understood, its main distinction from earth is eternity. While heaven represents a realm of everlasting existence, earth is a place of fleeting moments and temporal experiences. Everything in heaven is permanent and unchanging, whereas all things on earth are subject to the passage of time and must ultimately fade away. (Matthew 6:19-21)

Jesus describes the casting out of demons as akin to Satan falling from heaven (Luke 10:18). This suggests that while Satan still exerts influence on Earth, that influence is limited and temporary, much like all things on Earth. John depicts this as a war in heaven where Michael and his angels do battle with the Dragon and his angels, and there is no longer a place found for them in heaven.

Matthew 12:26 does not suggest that Satan is incapacitated. In this passage, Jesus addresses the accusation that he casts out demons by the power of Beelzebub (Satan). Logically, if Jesus were working for Beelzebub, he would not be casting out demons, as that would contradict Beelzebub's intent. However, since Jesus is successfully casting out demons, it indicates that he is working against Beelzebub’s purposes.

In Matthew 12:22-30 and Mark 3:20-27, the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub. Jesus refuted this by arguing that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand—meaning that if Satan were casting out his own demons, it would be self-defeating. Instead, Jesus claimed that his ability to cast out demons was evidence of the presence of God's kingdom.

Jesus' argument does not deny the presence of evil forces; rather, it refutes the idea that he operates under their authority. By casting out demons, he demonstrates divine power over them, reinforcing the notion that God's kingdom is overcoming darkness. His statement about a kingdom divided against itself suggests that Satan wouldn't logically fight against his own influence.

Satan is on earth, where Jesus and his followers are engaged in a spiritual battle. (Ephesians 6:12, 1 Peter 5:8, James 4:7) His influence is now limited to the earth. This aligns with passages where Jesus and his followers actively confront evil, whether through casting out demons, resisting temptation, or spreading God's truth. These verses suggest an ongoing struggle, where believers are called to stand firm against deception, temptation, and opposition. Rather than a direct physical battle, it's often framed as a fight of faith, truth, and righteousness against spiritual forces.

In Revelation 12:7-9, 12, Satan is limited to Earth. In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is cast into the Abyss. Revelation 20 presents a different image, where Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years so that he cannot deceive the nations. Unlike his presence on earth, where he wages war, his confinement in the Abyss represents the suppression of his influence.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Would you agree that Jesus had to take the power of death away from Satan (Hebrews 2:14-15) and destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8) in order for what you're talking about to happen up until that "new era of darkness" comes, which Amills call "Satan's little season"?

There seems to be a significant misunderstanding in the conversation. Paul contends that Jesus triumphs over the fear of death, rather than overcoming death itself, which is the point you seem to be implying. This distinction highlights the difference between fear and the actual power of death, emphasizing the comfort and hope that Jesus provides in the face of existential dread. Revelation 21:4 describes a future where "death shall be no more." This aligns with the idea that Jesus' victory extends beyond His own resurrection to the eventual elimination of death itself.

Many biblical passages suggest that one of the devil’s tactics is to keep people enslaved to the fear of death. Hebrews 2:14-15 states that Jesus came to "destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death." This implies that fear of death can be a tool of oppression, keeping people in bondage rather than allowing them to live in faith and freedom.

The devil’s influence is sometimes linked to deception, temptation, and fear—things that can keep people from embracing the hope of eternal life. If the devil's work involves keeping people in fear of death, then his influence would still be present in the world, especially where fear, deception, and temptation exist. Even though Jesus overcame death, people can still struggle with doubt, fear, and spiritual battles, which suggests the devil is still active in some capacity.

It is a prison metaphor.

Prison is a place where a mob boss, for example, can still exert influence over his territory. However, John's portrayal of Satan being cast into a bottomless pit challenges the idea that Satan can maintain any influence. Since Satan is genuinely confined in the Abyss, it logically follows that his influence is completely extinguished.

What is your understanding of the locusts in the bottomless pit in Revelation 9? Many ,including me, believe they symbolically describe fallen angels and it is said they are not loosed from the pit until the fifth trumpet. I don't think it's reasonable to think that the fallen angels are completely inactive for all that time.

If they were active, they wouldn't need to be let go.

Notice that at the time John was writing this, the beast "is not" because it was in the bottomless pit.

The beast "is not" because at the time John was writing, it didn't exist.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All things are possible with God, according to Jesus

Too bad God's Word is not part of the conversation and people are willing to tell perceived tares there is no hope for them and they don't even reach out to people because they believe there is no hope for them.

What a croc of garbage!

Have you read the entire thread? There is a lot of good stuff here.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It also helps to understand what plant or weed Jesus was referring to…..as you said, a plant cannot change from one species to another and these are two very different species…..one is a useful, harmless plant…the other a noxious weed.
The weed in question is believed to be “bearded darnel” and it is a common weed in the Middle East.
It resembles wheat in the early growing phase, so much so that it is almost impossible to tell the difference until it reaches a certain stage, but by then the root systems are so entangled that you cannot uproot the weeds without taking the wheat with them.

It is called “wheat’s evil twin” by some, and in Bible times was used to decimate a neighbors crop to reduce his yield….enemies often did this as sabotage.

It was an excellent illustration because of the characteristics of this weed. It mimicked the wheat until it was well established, and then at the harvest it will decimate the final crop as the weeds are harvested along with the wheat and destroyed. These weeds are counterfeit Christians planted by the devil, so his aim is to decimate the yield at the harvest time, but God already knows which are which….but he has to show us in real life what these counterfeit Christians look like.

I have a question. What if the tare and the wheat is inside of us all. That which bears no profit being of the flesh. And that which is profitable being born of God. the two (weed and the wheat) where that which was born first is earthly. And that which was born last is born from above and is heavenly. For example the old me separated from God, and the take off the old man and put on the New man. If a tare never can become wheat then what of the belief that our old self, our old flesh body (tares)will be resurrected and transformed into a new body transformed into being wheat)? Does that make sense? If the flesh body is transformed into a spiritual body (that being a hope and expectation) then is it a contradiction to say that a tare can never become wheat? Or is the old body done away with?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Right, but you have the tares being allowed to “grow together” <4885> to grow together, increase together. Where does Paul allow the 1 Corinthians 5:11 list to increase together with believers? Answer, nowhere. We are to be separated from them.

Good Point. Paul's point is a bit more nuanced than that. He is concerned that the situation's optics will convey the idea that the church has a lax attitude toward sin and that a person who continues in sin is still considered a "brother." Paul doesn't recommend excommunication, at least not right away. Our first effort should be evangelism, persuasion, counseling, and exhortation. Our goal is to pull someone out of the fire. When someone is formally removed from a religious community, it can create barriers to communication and spiritual guidance, making outreach more difficult.

Despite its challenges, some see disfellowship as necessary in cases of persistent sin. The goal, in theory, is to encourage repentance.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What about allowing tares to grow with wheat? What does that mean? I wouldn’t think that means allowing unrepentant tares to join a church.

This is true theoretically. But remember, Jesus is postulating a case where the wheat and the tares are situated together, and it is difficult to distinguish between them. Spiritually speaking, God allows good and evil to coexist for a time, allowing time for growth and repentance.

The parable of the wheat and the tares powerfully reminds us that judgment belongs to God, not humans. Since we all fall short in various ways (Romans 3:23), distinguishing between true righteousness and deception can be incredibly difficult. Premature conclusions can be dangerous since good and evil can sometimes appear intertwined. The challenge is to live righteously while showing grace, acknowledging that only God sees the heart fully.

Those who want grace, offer grace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think we all know Satan is not saved.

What does this have to do with what I said?

I was talking about this verse...

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

This is talking about the disciples who were given to Jesus by the Father. Satan was not given to Jesus. This is clearly talking about Judas Iscariot. He was one of the disciples who was given to Jesus and he was lost.

 

[grafted branch]

This is true theoretically. But remember, Jesus is postulating a case where the wheat and the tares are situated together, and it is difficult to distinguish between them. Spiritually speaking, God allows good and evil to coexist for a time, allowing time for growth and repentance.

The parable of the wheat and the tares powerfully reminds us that judgment belongs to God, not humans. Since we all fall short in various ways (Romans 3:23), distinguishing between true righteousness and deception can be incredibly difficult. Premature conclusions can be dangerous since good and evil can sometimes appear intertwined. The challenge is to live righteously while showing grace, acknowledging that only God sees the heart fully.

Those who want grace, offer grace.

I agree, it’s not really an all or none situation. Let’s take a drunkard for example. They are on the 1 Corinthians 5 list to be excommunicated but if a person is putting forth effort to stay away from alcohol and has shame and remorse over their chemical addiction then the church should also make every accommodation they can to help that individual.

On the other hand if a drunkard is unrepentant and belligerent that individual should be excommunicated from church activities and dealt with as if they are an unbeliever even if they claim to be a brother or sister in Christ.

We would like all to become saved but sometimes it’s a fine line between when a self proclaimed Christian is doing more damage in the church than good when they fall into one of the situations on the 1 Corinthians 5 list.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm trying to help you here.

I don't need your help.

Emotional arguments are logical fallacies, not reasoned arguments.

You confuse passion with random thoughtless arguments. No matter how calmly you present your arguments, they are still false.

Appeals to emotion are generally not preferred in rational discussions or debates because they can cloud judgment and lead to biased reasoning rather than objective analysis. While emotions are powerful and can be persuasive, relying too heavily on emotional appeal can distort facts, oversimplify complex issues, or manipulate audiences.

Ok, Dr. CadyandZoe. Spare me your holier than thou lectures and just address my arguments.

Before we jump to another passage, let's be clear on John's intended meaning in Revelation 20. Here, John depicts an angel coming down from heaven, throwing Satan into the abyss. In the New Testament, the Abyss is often depicted as a deep, bottomless pit or a place of confinement for evil spirits. The Greek word "abussos" means "bottomless" or "immeasurable depth," and it appears in several passages, particularly in the context of spiritual warfare and divine judgment.

In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is bound and cast into the Abyss for a thousand years, "so that he might not deceive the nations any longer." This suggests that his ability to influence the world is entirely cut off while confined.

This is where you go off the rails. You are not looking at the text carefully.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Why do you think this is a literal description of Satan's binding? It's not. It's not talking about Satan being literally cast into a literal Abyss with a literal great chain with a literal Abyss then being literally locked with a literal key. How could a literal Abyss be locked with a literal key? How could a spirit being like Satan be literally chained up?

No, this is symbolically describing a dragon being chained up and locked up in the Abyss. That symbolically represents the spiritual binding of the evil spirit being who is called the devil or Satan.

So, rather than thinking it's talking about an evil spirit being somehow being literally locked up in a literal prison and chained up and unable to do anything at all, we need to determine what it means for Satan to be bound from deceiving the nations (Greek: ethnos).

Premils don't give much thought to what it means for Satan to "deceive the nations". They give it very little thought and assume it has to do with Satan's ability to deceive in general. So, they think him being bound means he is unable to deceive at all and is completely incapacitated. But, is that really what it's saying? I don't believe so.

What was Satan able to do in OT times? He held the power of death and was able to use that to keep people in bondage to the fear of death.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Because of what Jesus accomplished with His death, He was then raised by God the Father from the dead and the gospel of Christ went out into the world through the power of the Holy Spirit. Satan no longer held the power of death and Jesus then held the keys of hell and of death (Revelation 1:18), and that resulted in Satan no longer being able to deceive the nations in the sense of deceiving them into having no hope of eternal life or anything beyond death.

In OT times, the Gentiles mostly were "without hope and without God in the world".

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Why was this the case? Because Satan held the power of death and was able to keep them in slavery to the fear of death because of having no hope of anything beyond death.

But, then what happened?

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Jesus took the power of death away from Satan and that allowed those who were far away from God and enslaved by the fear of death near to God and His kingdom by the blood of Christ. That has resulted in "a great multitude" from all nations being saved (Revelation 7:9) after there previously were few saved in those nations. That couldn't happen without Satan being bound from deceiving the nations into having no hope because of the fear of death. This does not mean he can't deceive at all, but his binding meant that he couldn't try to deceive anymore without any opposition like he has had to do during NT times while battling against the opposition of the gospel of Christ going out into the world and bringing light into the world that was formerly in nearly complete darkness.

Matthew 12:26 does not suggest that Satan is incapacitated. In this passage, Jesus addresses the accusation that he casts out demons by the power of Beelzebub (Satan). Logically, if Jesus were working for Beelzebub, he would not be casting out demons, as that would contradict Beelzebub's intent. However, since Jesus is successfully casting out demons, it indicates that he is working against Beelzebub’s purposes.

So, do you then agree that the binding of the strong man (Matt 12:28-29) is not a literal binding that prevents him from doing anything at all, but rather prevents him from doing certain things?

Satan is on earth, where Jesus and his followers are engaged in a spiritual battle. (Ephesians 6:12, 1 Peter 5:8, James 4:7) His influence is now limited to the earth. This aligns with passages where Jesus and his followers actively confront evil, whether through casting out demons, resisting temptation, or spreading God's truth. These verses suggest an ongoing struggle, where believers are called to stand firm against deception, temptation, and opposition. Rather than a direct physical battle, it's often framed as a fight of faith, truth, and righteousness against spiritual forces.

Were believers able to consistently stand firm against deception, temptation, and opposition in OT times? For the most part they could not, right? They did not have the Holy Spirit permanently indwelling them in those days to help them consistently stand firm every day. They did not have the power of the gospel of Christ to use against spiritual attacks like we've had in NT times. The power we now have because of what Jesus has done was not available in OT times for the most part. Only occasionally back then, but it was not there for the Gentiles.

In Revelation 12:7-9, 12, Satan is limited to Earth. In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is cast into the Abyss. Revelation 20 presents a different image, where Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years so that he cannot deceive the nations. Unlike his presence on earth, where he wages war, his confinement in the Abyss represents the suppression of his influence.

I disagree. Satan being cast out of heaven represented part of the suppression of his influence because he was no longer able to accuse anyone before God at that point due to the fact that the blood of Jesus covered their sins.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There seems to be a significant misunderstanding in the conversation. Paul contends that Jesus triumphs over the fear of death, rather than overcoming death itself, which is the point you seem to be implying.

I implied no such thing. Not even close.

Many biblical passages suggest that one of the devil’s tactics is to keep people enslaved to the fear of death. Hebrews 2:14-15 states that Jesus came to "destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death." This implies that fear of death can be a tool of oppression, keeping people in bondage rather than allowing them to live in faith and freedom.

Yes, exactly. And I am saying that Satan's binding relates to that. Part of what caused his binding is Jesus taking the power of death away from Satan by way of His own death so that Satan could no longer keep people in slavery to the f

The devil’s influence is sometimes linked to deception, temptation, and fear—things that can keep people from embracing the hope of eternal life. If the devil's work involves keeping people in fear of death, then his influence would still be present in the world, especially where fear, deception, and temptation exist. Even though Jesus overcame death, people can still struggle with doubt, fear, and spiritual battles, which suggests the devil is still active in some capacity.

In some capacity, yes. So, you acknowledge that his power is restrained to some extent. I believe that represents his binding. It has nothing to do with him being completely incapacitated.

Prison is a place where a mob boss, for example, can still exert influence over his territory. However, John's portrayal of Satan being cast into a bottomless pit challenges the idea that Satan can maintain any influence. Since Satan is genuinely confined in the Abyss, it logically follows that his influence is completely extinguished.

Nope. Notice that it says the dragon is bound with "a great chain", not a small chain. That implies a restraint on the dragon's mobility. A restraint on Satan's influence, not a complete restriction of it.

If they were active, they wouldn't need to be let go.

Look at the text more carefully. While bound they are not kept from doing anything at all, but rather from tormenting those without the seal of God.

The beast "is not" because at the time John was writing, it didn't exist.

Wrong. Notice it says five of its heads, representing kingdoms, had fallen, and one "is". How could the beast not exist if one of its heads existed? That makes no sense. So, John saying the beast "is not" has to mean something besides it not existing.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is false. Hitler was Catholic. Anyone who studied WW2 and his campaign,The Final Solution,know this to be true. Hitler in his actual writings said he was doing the work of Jesus.

While it is true that Hitler was a baptized Catholic in his youth – He was Catholic name ONLY. He was no more a practicing Catholic than Charles Manson was a “peaceful hippie”.

Not only did Hitler NOT attribute his reign of terror to Jesus – he was heavily into promoting the pagan power of Teutonic gods for his success.

 

[Davidpt]

The parable is primarily about the end of the age, so tares becoming wheat or wheat becoming tares or anything like that is not the point of the parable at all. The parable is about what happens to the wheat (children of the kingdom) and to the tares (children of the wicked one) at the end of the age.

Though, it is primarily about the end of the age, there are these parts, below. Why isn't verse 25 significant? Have you never even bothered to think about any of the following? Do you just interpret things sometimes, keeping in mind I said sometimes not all of the time, without actually thinking some of these things through first? Such as the following below?


Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.


Obviously, this has to have a beginning. Which means before the enemy did this there were no tares among the wheat in the meantime. That alone proves that it is not reasonable that the lost in general are in view here. After all, before what verse 25 records happens, no one is going to argue that the lost in general don't exist yet. Should we read verse 25 like such?

While men were still awake, thus still paying attention, there were no lost in general yet. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed the lost in general among the wheat, and went his way.

Once again, before this happens first---while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat---there obviously were no tares among the wheat in the meantime. Verse 25 has to have a beginning. The lost in general have been around since the days of Cain. There is zero connection with the lost in general and the tares meant here. Also keep in mind that the text says among the wheat, that the tares grow together with the wheat.

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


As if any of that makes sense if the lost in general is supposed to be in view here. As if those that represent the wheat didn't even realize that the lost in general existed, therefore, only thought the wheat were the only ones existing on the planet until verse 25 was fulfilled.

 

[PinSeeker]

Let's see one convincingly argue their way out of this one without being purposely deceitful, without being purposely intellectually dishonest in order to do so.

LOL! Well, okay... <smile> I hope no one is arguing what you're saying, David. I'm not anyway...

Yes, if anyone does not continue in His kindness ~ which is the same as what Jesus speaks of in John 6, 8, and 15 regarding abiding in Him ~ then yes, certainly, he or she will be cut off. However... <smile> ...he or she will continue in His kindness... abide in Him... because of the Holy Spirit's continuing work in him or her... it is by God's power that we are sustained, kept though faith, to the day of Christ.

And this does not reduce our personal responsibility to remain in the faith or to obey, or to keep His commandments, or to do good works one iota... Certainly, we are to live as becomes followers of Christ, but because we have been born again of the Spirit, we are no longer of the devil or "children of wrath like the rest of mankind, but have been made alive together with Christ ~ by grace we have been saved ~ and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages God might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus, for by grace we have been saved through faith, and this is not our own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." And it is so important to get the order of this right: "we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." This is what Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-10. So our remaining in the faith, obedience, keeping His commandments, and doing good works in Christ is the result of our having been born again of the Spirit, not the other way around.

So then regarding our lives subsequent to this having been born again, as this same Paul says to the Gentile believers in Philippi, "He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ" (Philippians 1:6). And then, just a few sentences later, he says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). And again, Peter says it this way, that God "has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).

So, as for falling away, in one sense, or perspective, a human, experiential one, yes, it is possible, even for those of us who have been saved to fall away. But in the sense or perspective of God, the fact is that:

• His purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2)
• God's Word never returns to Him empty but always accomplishes the purpose for which it was sent (Isaiah 55:10-11)
• the will of Him who sent Jesus is that He should lose nothing of all that He has given Him, but raise it up on the last day... this is the will of Jesus's Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and He will raise him up on the last day (John 6:39-40)
• Jesus's sheep, those given to Jesus by the Father, hear His voice and follow Him, He gives them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of His hand... because His Father, Who has given them to Him is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand... He and the Father are one (John 10:27-30).
• The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).

Only OSAS is Biblical but NOSAS isn't, has been 100% debunked, as in, case closed.

There was really no debunking to be done, I think. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Behold]

And this does not reduce our personal responsibility to remain in the faith or to obey, or to keep His commandments, or to do good works

All Christians should remain in the faith and """ present your body as a living sacrifice to God, as your reasonable service""", but if this is taught as....>"How to keep from losing your salvation" or "How to stay saved"...... then the person teaching this, is a Legalistic heretic, who does not understand God's Grace as a "GIFT".

"The GIFT of Salvation".