Can a tare become saved?

[Scott Downey]

The problem is you are associating the tares with all the unsaved. All the unsaved include people who are Nazis, KKK, terrorist, serial killers, and so on. We are told to allow the tares to grow together <4885> to grow together, to increase together until the harvest.

I can understand if you have an issue with just standing by and watching these kinds of evil organizations grow but then that’s what it means when tares are interpreted as the unsaved in general. What we should be doing is not allowing evil to grow, we should resist the devil.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

2 Corinthians 10:4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

Got a slight conundrum with that though.

We ae opposed to evil coming into the church, that is where the contending for the faith occurs, not out in the world. The world needs to be converted, are we called to rebuke the world like that?
John the Baptist did speak out against Herod a client king of Rome in reference to the law of God.
We condemn the world by our faith in Christ.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

We resist the devil is true, but read it in context, for what particular end.

James 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Luke 6:29
To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either.

v6, should we start a resistance group, take up guns, and shoot our way into a new government?

James 5
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches [a]are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of [b]Sabaoth. 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and [c]luxury; you have [d]fattened your hearts [e]as in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

Be Patient and Persevering​

7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord [f]is at hand.

*********************************

All the above is of our personal walk offing out of our faith.
I am no pacifist though; the military has its place in God's decrees.
And I would have no problem as a soldier shooting someone in a war. But I have a luxury of being a citizen in a country like the USA
Now If I were in Germany back then, knowing what I believe, I would never join the NAZI party. I would have wanted to flee away from Germany to the USA.

You know it all depends a lot on the surrounding circumstances and for the sake of your conscience what to do.

 

[grafted branch]

Got a slight conundrum with that though.

We ae opposed to evil coming into the church, that is where the contending for the faith occurs, not out in the world. The world needs to be converted, are we called to rebuke the world like that?
John the Baptist did speak out against Herod a client king of Rome in reference to the law of God.
We condemn the world by our faith in Christ.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

We resist the devil is true, but read it in context, for what particular end.

James 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Luke 6:29
To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either.

v6, should we start a resistance group, take up guns, and shoot our way into a new government?

James 5
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches [a]are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of [b]Sabaoth. 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and [c]luxury; you have [d]fattened your hearts [e]as in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

Be Patient and Persevering​

7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord [f]is at hand.

*********************************

All the above is of our personal walk offing out of our faith.
I am no pacifist though; the military has its place in God's decrees.
And I would have no problem as a soldier shooting someone in a war. But I have a luxury of being a citizen in a country like the USA
Now If I were in Germany back then, knowing what I believe, I would never join the NAZI party. I would have wanted to flee away from Germany to the USA.

You know it all depends a lot on the surrounding circumstances and for the sake of your conscience what to do.

Yes, the tares were sown in His field, and in the church is where contending for faith occurs. The field is said to be the world in Matthew 13:38. The field is<2076> the world. The word “is” is defined as is, it is, there is and has the meaning of are, belong, call, come, consist. To me it looks that phrase is conveying that the field is in the world versus the field is in heaven, it’s giving us the location because the parable is about the kingdom of heaven.
I don’t personally protest or join picket lines because our weapon is a sword (the Word). Some of the very people who are arguing that we should just let the tares (unsaved in general) grow with us are using their swords against any view they disagree with. On a forum such as this one, that’s what we do and I believe it is beneficial. However it seems hypocritical to use a sword to make the point we shouldn’t use a sword on tares.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, the tares were sown in His field, and in the church is where contending for faith occurs. The field is said to be the world in Matthew 13:38. The field is<2076> the world. The word “is” is defined as is, it is, there is and has the meaning of are, belong, call, come, consist. To me it looks that phrase is conveying that the field is in the world versus the field is in heaven, it’s giving us the location because the parable is about the kingdom of heaven.
I don’t personally protest or join picket lines because our weapon is a sword (the Word). Some of the very people who are arguing that we should just let the tares (unsaved in general) grow with us are using their swords against any view they disagree with. On a forum such as this one, that’s what we do and I believe it is beneficial. However it seems hypocritical to use a sword to make the point we shouldn’t use a sword on tares.

Yes, the field is in the world, and the Son of Man sows the good seed, which turned out to be us. Well, we believed in Christ.

The good seed sprouts and grows in the field, the world.
We are both still in the world, but since we are the good seed, we actually are not of the world, we are of the Son of Man.

*****************************************
John 8:22-24 New King James Version

22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

*********************************************
John 15:18-20 New King James Version

18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
*********************************************

The believing, God chose us, even as just the good seeds, before we came to believe in Christ.
The unbelieving are of the world, of Satan
The believing are not of the world, they are of God, of the Son of Man.

All the good seed, being of the Son of Man, as in of God, will in this life grow in the knowledge of God and be with Christ.
All the bad seed, being of the devil, will in this life grow in the knowledge of the world and evil things, and not be with Christ

The parable is very much describing each one's own eternal destinies.
Everything very simply started, but people do like to make it complicated. Large, long books and publish extensive commentaries.

 

[PinSeeker]

...if the tares represent all the unsaved then someone like Hitler should’ve been allowed to grow together with the wheat.... WWII was fought and I would think a Christian would agree that Hitler should’ve been stopped. Do you think WWII was a mistake and we should’ve just let Hitler continue on?

What are you even talking about here, GB? LOL! Leaving the separating of the tares from the wheat to the Lord has nothing to do with us stopping societal violence and atrocities ~ and preserving life ~ when possible. Goodness gracious.

Right, we should be able to see that it’s Biblical to excommunicate a person and we should also be able to see that a tare has to be allowed to grow together with the wheat until the harvest and not removed at anytime soon than the harvest.

Allowing the wheat and the tares to grow together is not even in the same universe subject-wise as discontinuing (at least for a time) Christian fellowship with someone who is, as I said, disturbing in some way the love and unity in Christ in a particular church.

Logically...

<chuckles>

...a tare can’t be all the unsaved in general.

This comment is not just meant for you, GB, but really for all here: When we think of the wheat and the tares, we should understand that in the same terms as what Paul says in Romans 9:21-24, that God is the potter and we all are the clay, and of all humanity has made one for honorable use and another for dishonorable use. As for us, we are to live as peaceably with one another as possible (although that may not be possible for many reasons from time to time) and leave any judgment to Him.

If you can't or won't equate the wheat and the tares with those on Jesus's right and left in the final Judgment (Matthew 25:31-46), then okay, but so they are.

Grace and peace to you.

...I let chatgpt rewrite them for me...

Uh oh. <smile> You know, the great thing about the internet (and AI, I guess) is that you can find anything. But, the terrible thing about the internet is that... you can find anything. LOL!

The context of Matthew 13:47–50 is the kingdom of heaven...

Right...

This harmonizes with the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22...

Right...

These parables aren't teaching that the wicked are in the kingdom in its final form and then removed. Rather, they show that the kingdom’s call draws in many, and a separation comes at the end—between those truly belonging and those who do not.

Right. Okay, maybe AI can be a good thing... <smile>

Anyway, yes, and all this harmonizes also with Jesus's very graphic picture of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46.

Hey, look at that... everything Jesus said fits together perfectly. Who'da thunk it? <smile>

But I'm sure this... "discussion"... <smile> ... will continue on... and on and on and on and on... LOL! Lord Jesus come quickly! <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The problem is you are associating the tares with all the unsaved.

That isn't a problem at all. I am allowing scripture to interpret scripture. Jesus said the tares are the children of the wicked one (devil). Other sccripture indicates that all unrepentant sinners are children of the devil. Therefore, the tares represent all the unsaved. Why are you willing to interpret the parable in such a way that contradicts 1 John 3:8-10? I'm not.

All the unsaved include people who are Nazis, KKK, terrorist, serial killers, and so on. We are told to allow the tares to grow together <4885> to grow together, to increase together until the harvest.

All that means is that they are in the field (the world) at the same time as believers. The world includes prisons where many of those type of people are kept. That has always been the case and will be the case until the end of the age. Jesus will deal with all of the unsaved at the end of the age when He returns. Justice will be served.

I can understand if you have an issue with just standing by and watching these kinds of evil organizations grow but then that’s what it means when tares are interpreted as the unsaved in general. What we should be doing is not allowing evil to grow, we should resist the devil.

Surely, I am not saying we should not resist the devil, but the time for justice is not now but when Jesus returns. Just be patient. In the meantime we can certainly fight against evil, but we can't just eliminate it altogether. Jesus will do that when He returns.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

2 Corinthians 10:4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

In no way, shape or form am I saying not to do this, so you are arguing with a strawman. Again.

 

[grafted branch]

Why are you willing to interpret the parable in such a way that contradicts 1 John 3:8-10? I'm not.

Ok let’s take a closer look at 1 John 3:8-10

1 John 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Verse 8 declares all have sinned and the Son of God was revealed that He might destroy the works of the devil (that we might be made righteous).

Verse 9 no saved person commits a sin unto death (see 1John 5:15-16) because Jesus paid for that sin.

Verse 10 in this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed. The revealing is based on how sin is dealt with and took place once the Son of God was revealed. Those relying on the old covenant to pay for their sins are now revealed as being children of the devil while those relying on the new covenant are the children of God. Sin under the old covenant was sin unto death sin under the new covenant is not sin unto death.



Now, back to the parable of the tares, the tares are those who are relying on the old covenant and the wheat are those relying on the new covenant. They both were allowed to grow together after the cross until 70AD when one of the harvests happened.

 

[grafted branch]

What are you even talking about here, GB? LOL! Leaving the separating of the tares from the wheat to the Lord has nothing to do with us stopping societal violence and atrocities ~ and preserving life ~ when possible. Goodness gracious.

Right, that’s why I have to reject any interpretation that calls the tares all the unsaved in general. Can you at least see why someone who looks at this logically would reject that interpretation?

 

[Scott Downey]

Right, that’s why I have to reject any interpretation that calls the tares all the unsaved in general. Can you at least see why someone who looks at this logically would reject that interpretation?

Good, as there was a point where none of us believed, and then we did. SO were proven to be the good seed, provided we continue to believe. I am not saying people lose their salvation if they are the good seed, just that there exist some false brethren.

1 John 2

Deceptions of the Last Hour​

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You​

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to [f]deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you [g]will abide in Him.

The Children of God​

28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that [h]when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
************************************
And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
We obtain the promise only through Christ, there is no other way to the Father

 

[grafted branch]

Good, as there was a point where none of us believed, and then we did. SO were proven to be the good seed, provided we continue to believe. I am not saying people lose their salvation if they are the good seed, just that there exist some false brethren.

1 John 2

Deceptions of the Last Hour​

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You​

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to [f]deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you [g]will abide in Him.

The Children of God​

28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that [h]when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
************************************
And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
We obtain the promise only through Christ, there is no other way to the Father

Well, sure, look at 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Those events literally happened in the first century, before that verse was written.

 

[Scott Downey]

Well, sure, look at 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Those events literally happened in the first century, before that verse was written.

IT happens today, sadly. People who seem to have a strong faith fall away.

 

[PinSeeker]

Ok let’s take a closer look at 1 John 3:8-10

Uh oh... <smile>

Verse 8 declares all have sinned...

Certainly, so wheat and tares alike...

Verse 9 no saved person commits a sin unto death (see 1John 5:15-16) because Jesus paid for that sin.

Well, yes, Jesus paid the wages of sin (death) on our behalf, and thus it is ~ and will be ~ as if we have not sinned, because Jesus's righteousness has been imputed to us and covers us now and in the final Judgment at the end of the age. But for now, in this life, as the apostle John says, "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"... but "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Those relying on the old covenant to pay for their sins are now revealed as being children of the devil while those relying on the new covenant are the children of God.

It's not about "relying" on anything, GB. It is about being under one covenant or the other, regardless of relying on anything. Or, if you want to talk about relying on anything, it's really about relying on oneself or on Christ for righteousness and salvation.

Sin under the old covenant was sin unto death sin under the new covenant is not sin unto death.

The wages of sin is always death. It has always been and always will be about righteousness (or not) in Christ Jesus. About being in Christ or not.

Right, that’s why I have to reject any interpretation that calls the tares all the unsaved in general.

You're certainly your own person. <smile> But you're at least inadvertently either at best misunderstanding or at worst refuting what Jesus Himself said.

Can you at least see why someone who looks at this logically would reject that interpretation?

Well, if you take out that word 'logically' here... because what you're saying is kind of the inverse of that... then maybe, but that makes no difference. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Scott Downey]

We have an example of this taught by Paul

1 Timothy 4​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

The Great Apostasy​

1 Now the Spirit [a]expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is [b]sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
*********************************************

Christ said false christs will arise performing wonders and many will be deceived

Matthew 24:23-25

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you beforehand.

***********************************

Jude and Peter warn us as well.
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord [b]God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Old and New Apostates​

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.

*****************************************************
2 Peter 2 New King James Version-Destructive Doctrines

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction [a]does not slumber.

Doom of False Teachers
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of [c]dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

Depravity of False Teachers
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to [d]carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, [e]carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of [f]adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

17 These are wells without water, [g]clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness [h]forever.

Deceptions of False Teachers
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of [j]corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into [k]bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok let’s take a closer look at 1 John 3:8-10

1 John 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Verse 8 declares all have sinned and the Son of God was revealed that He might destroy the works of the devil (that we might be made righteous).

Verse 9 no saved person commits a sin unto death (see 1John 5:15-16) because Jesus paid for that sin.

Verse 10 in this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed. The revealing is based on how sin is dealt with and took place once the Son of God was revealed. Those relying on the old covenant to pay for their sins are now revealed as being children of the devil while those relying on the new covenant are the children of God. Sin under the old covenant was sin unto death sin under the new covenant is not sin unto death.



Now, back to the parable of the tares, the tares are those who are relying on the old covenant and the wheat are those relying on the new covenant. They both were allowed to grow together after the cross until 70AD when one of the harvests happened.

I'm sorry, but I can't even begin to make sense of what you're saying here. To the point that I don't even know how to respond to it other than to just say I completely disagree that anything said in 1 John 3:8-10 would suggest that the children of the kingdom and children of the devil stopped being in the world together in 70 AD. Huh? You melted my brain with this post. I should sue you for that.....I'm kidding.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok let’s take a closer look at 1 John 3:8-10

Uh oh.... <smile>

LOL! Exactly. I am regretting reading what he said beyond that. Not really. I'm kidding, but it certainly made no sense to me...well, he quoted 1 John 3:8-10 and that makes sense to me, but nothing he said about it does.

 

[grafted branch]

I'm sorry, but I can't even begin to make sense of what you're saying here. To the point that I don't even know how to respond to it other than to just say I completely disagree that anything said in 1 John 3:8-10 would suggest that the children of the kingdom and children of the devil stopped being in the world together in 70 AD. Huh? You melted my brain with this post. I should sue you for that.....I'm kidding.

Well, I see those who were zealous for the law being part of the church until 70AD. After that they were no longer part of the church, and that is still true to this day. That is what I see happening in the parable of the tares.

I can’t make sense of all the views trying to apply the tares to what’s happening today, when the parable does fit with what has happened historically.I think logically and when I see flaws I can’t just accept that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What are you even talking about here, GB? LOL! Leaving the separating of the tares from the wheat to the Lord has nothing to do with us stopping societal violence and atrocities ~ and preserving life ~ when possible. Goodness gracious.

Right, that’s why I have to reject any interpretation that calls the tares all the unsaved in general. Can you at least see why someone who looks at this logically would reject that interpretation?

Who even understands your argument against that interpretation besides you?

 

[grafted branch]

Who even understands your argument against that interpretation besides you?

I would say the believers who lived in the first century that saw those events unfold.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, I see those who were zealous for the law being part of the church until 70AD. After that they were no longer part of the church, and that is still true to this day. That is what I see happening in the parable of the tares.

I cannot understand what you are saying. What happened in 70 AD that caused someone who was in the church up until then to no longer be in the church? Please explain that.

I can’t make sense of all the views trying to apply the tares to what’s happening today, when the parable does fit with what has happened historically.I think logically and when I see flaws I can’t just accept that.

I think logically, also, and I don't believe your view makes any logical sense. So, apparently, there's more to this than just human logic. We can make more than one logical argument that leads to two different interpretations of the parable, so there is more than just human logic needed to understand the parable. I'd like you to read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 and show me where Paul indicated that the key to understanding scripture is human logic rather than spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit. Good luck in finding that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I would say the believers who lived in the first century that saw those events unfold.

I will say this much. You do a good job of illustrating why I don't like preterism. Part of the reason for that is because preterists seem to act as if history ended in 70 AD. But, guess what? Children of the kingdom and children of the devil still existed in the world after that and still do today during this temporal age that precedes the eternal age to come.

 

[grafted branch]

I cannot understand what you are saying. What happened in 70 AD that caused someone who was in the church up until then to no longer be in the church? Please explain that.

Prior to 70AD there were different burdens on Jews than there were on Gentiles, in the church. That ended in 70AD. I don’t know why but it seems there are many people who think that all of a sudden everyone just abandoned the old covenant practices and immediately agreed to move into the new covenant. Do you think the apostles went fishing on the next sabbath after the cross and ate BLT’s for lunch?

I think logically, also, and I don't believe your view makes any logical sense. So, apparently, there's more to this than just human logic. We can make more than one logical argument that leads to two different interpretations of the parable, so there is more than just human logic needed to understand the parable. I'd like you to read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 and show me where Paul indicated that the key to understanding scripture is human logic rather than spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit. Good luck in finding that.

So then two people with different interpretations means one person doesn’t have the Holy Spirit? God is not the author of confusion, you can’t accept my view because it’s confusing to you and I can’t accept your view because it’s confusing to me. The Holy Spirit is guiding me by using logic to avoid believing confusing interpretations. Things that are illogical are confusing to me, it’s ok to use your sword (Word) on a person like me so my view won’t grow with the rest of the wheat but if a tare comes along, apparently you would just let them grow together with the wheat. That’s how illogical your view is to me.