Can you be pro-choice and still be a Christian?
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Well let me just lightly explain my journey as a Christian and what I experience today both spiritually and mentally.
When I first received the Spirit of Christ I was on fire for the Lord and this flame has flickered on and of over time. All in all it has been a strong flame, even today.
One thing I do know from my experiences and others I've met and taken them to be genuine believers are these, areas we have in common:
1. Once you have the Spirit within you, you are at constant war with your old body and mind, of the baggage you have collected over the years before coming to Christ.
2. The worst (spiritual - sinful) things within you usually go out of you first and sometimes very quickly. Although one vise or sinful habit lingered on for a few decades with me. It was a real battle and 'we' eventually prevailed.
3. Today I do not have life-long vices or chronic ones...a few outstanding acute ones of minor significance that do linger on
4. Now if I had this abortion secular world view from the start of my walk in Christ I do know it would be gone in a few years - knowing the sanctifying Spirit within me over these many decades. And this abortion spirit is a Biggy like promiscuous life-long sex or even murder....as a career habit. They cannot survive and cohabit with the Spirit from God within me for decades. I'm a witness to this....
that's about it..AS
thanks for listening..APAK
That's a good testimony. Mine is much darker but i understand that "fire" kinda like Paul did.
I agree with 1, my experience with 2 is that everyone has some chronic sins they wrestle with- some never fully conquer in the flesh, 3- like Paul, i have a ton still
4- I have had many sent to me that were 'rejected" from "mainstream Christianity" because they had serious and/or personal chronic issues or other monkeys they couldn't shake. (you can tell the difference because the "true Christians" really try hard and suffer when they fail- the frauds just try to justify it and go on)
Sometimes those sheep needed to be nudged back, others they needed to be bitten on the nape and drug back. Kinda like a prodigal son or carrying a casualty. Its never right to abandon a weaker brother or sister who has a chronic problem.
Now, is that in any way supporting abortion that does not meet very strict and limited criteria for justification? No- there is no justification for murder
Is that in any way saying that holing such a belief is anything other than a sin? No- there is no justification for sin
Is a true believer holding such a view a sin of the spirit (mind)? it certainly is and sins of the flesh will be punished in the flesh and sins of the spirit will be punished in the spirit. We don't need to worry- they didn't slip one past God and when the time is right they will get the appropriate attitude adjustment.
They may not yet understand. They may have had a personal crisis that has tainted perspective and have to work through it. They may just be too weak to let go. Jesus forgives a lot of sin that meet that criteria- holding a belief on abortion is no different.
If we could fix everything within ourselves and be perfect, We wouldn't need his forgiveness of our sins.
Our job is to stand firm and explain to them why the belief is wrong unless the situation warrants other action.
For me anyway, well said and from the heart..I agree in contents and style AS
Thanks for sharing...Blessing to you and family
APAK
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
2ndRateMind
Active Member
I 100% agree with you that this is a thorny ethical issue. Sometimes, though, we have to acknowledge that one's antagonists have a point, maybe several points, on their side of the argument. Though sometimes those points seem to belong to different arguments completely. Take the current issue you want to discuss. We have the pro-choice brigade, and the pro-life brigade, named for the points the protagonists want to emphasise. I think more heat than light is generated from the friction between these points of view. I finally decided where I stood on the matter when I ignored the labels and thought about the matter like this: The measure of a civilisation lies not in how it treats the richest, strongest and most powerful, but in how it treats it's least powerful and most vulnerable.
Take the right to life away from a helpless foetus, and then see how long it takes to remove it not just from the unborn, but also from the orphan, the disabled, the weak, the poor, the sick, the hungry etc. Of course, this need not be done by violence, but simply by withdrawing the support those less fortunate than ourselves may need to live out a meaningful, fulfilled, and reasonably happy life. What Jesus would do, and whether or not my chances of eternal life might be affected, did not actually enter into my considerations at all, but I hope He would not be unhappy with my choice of side, and if He is, well, that constitutes a problem for Him, and not for me.
In the end, though, I would hope that this matter of conscience could be resolved voluntarily and favourably by each and every mother to be, with appropriate counselling if necessary, and not by any recourse to the law.
Best wishes, 2RM.
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2ndRateMind
Active Member
Thank you for your prayers. I can't say I'm on my way to any conventional form of Christianity, or a mainstream denomination, but yesterday a strange thing happened. A man stopped me on my way, asked me if I had somewhere to stay last night and gave me two £10.00 notes. And he told me to look after myself. I was too surprised even to say thank you, but in case he ever reads this forum, let me say it here, and apologise for my lack of manners.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Best wishes, 2RM.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that the ramifications of your choice regarding pro choice/pro life are Jesus's problem and not your own?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
2ndRateMind
Active Member
Yup. That's about right. I know where I stand on the matter, and if Jesus wants to stand on the other side, well, that doesn't really affect my decision. I am free to follow my conscience, He is free to follow His, and that has some degree of relevance, to my way of thinking.
Best wishes, 2RM.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Interesting contradiction
Here you say
But on your Plato thread, you say
What about submitting our will to Jesus and repenting and following His word? That's what Christians do isn't it?
As a "deeply Christian" person, how do you reconcile those 2 statements you made?
Like I said over there, your own words say what they say and show you as you are and your true intentions.
Here you say
But on your Plato thread, you say
What about submitting our will to Jesus and repenting and following His word? That's what Christians do isn't it?
As a "deeply Christian" person, how do you reconcile those 2 statements you made?
Like I said over there, your own words say what they say and show you as you are and your true intentions.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
being christian is simply trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for ones sins. One can have enormous amounts of wrong thinking in their head and be Christian. Hopefully as one grows in the knowledge of the Word they will listen to the Holy Spirit and change their world views as all of us who follow Jesus do until we die.
I think the answer might be more nuanced than what I originally thought.
After some time thinking about it, I believe that God knows whether someone is immature and ignorant of abortion and how God views it. Those people may support abortion and still be Christian.
However, I believe if someone knows that its a life, and knows the facts and still supports abortion, Id doubt that person is a Christian. But because of my personality and how I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, I wouldn't be 100 percent sure.
This is just my personality. I see where the people who say they aren't Christians are coming from.
I think the nature of my original question is actually kind of negative and caused some strife because it forces people in the uncomfortable position of trying to judge others salvation over a really polarizing topic.
For that, I do apologize.
I should have simply asked if someone can support immoral causes and still be saved.
I think they can be, based on the ignorance and immaturity of the person involved. As we learn and grow, however, I believe God holds us more accountable. To whom much is given, much is required.
After some time thinking about it, I believe that God knows whether someone is immature and ignorant of abortion and how God views it. Those people may support abortion and still be Christian.
However, I believe if someone knows that its a life, and knows the facts and still supports abortion, Id doubt that person is a Christian. But because of my personality and how I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, I wouldn't be 100 percent sure.
This is just my personality. I see where the people who say they aren't Christians are coming from.
I think the nature of my original question is actually kind of negative and caused some strife because it forces people in the uncomfortable position of trying to judge others salvation over a really polarizing topic.
For that, I do apologize.
I should have simply asked if someone can support immoral causes and still be saved.
I think they can be, based on the ignorance and immaturity of the person involved. As we learn and grow, however, I believe God holds us more accountable. To whom much is given, much is required.
Christian is a man-made term, that "indicates"... one of two things..
1) A man is FOLLOWING & Believing Gods Word..... THIS man IS TASTING Gods Word and the Lord God IS "WITH" that man.
THAT MAN, AT ANY TIME.."can" FALL AWAY
2) A Converted Christian (ie born again Christian)....reveals... THIS man IS Following & Believing & Heartfully Committed & EATING Gods Word and the Lord God IS "WITHIN" (WITH AND IN) that man.
THAT MAN, AT NO TIME...CAN FALL AWAY.
SO NO....even men proclaiming they are a Christian, or attending a Christian Chruch...
ARE NOT "ALL" SAVED.
I do not believe JESUS Himself, spoke of Christians.
I do believe JESUS Himself, spoke of;
Heartful Belief IN God, "and" the One God Sent, "and"
That IF and WHEN a man CONFESSES Heartful belief "IN God, "and" the One God Sent....
The Lord God Himself would:
* Forgive that man FOR HAVING HAD DISBELIEF.
The Lord God Himself would:
* KEEP that man IN BELIEF, and IN LIFE Forever, IN, BY and Through Gods WORKS.
I believe abortion is a TRESPASS AGAINST a developing mankind of thing.
I Believe SIN is Against God, and ONLY God forgives SIN.
I Believe men TRESPASS Against men and men Absolutely CAN and VIA Precepts, are Instructed to FORGIVE men their TRESPASSES.
PER, a man WHO HAS ACCEPTED the Lord Gods OFFERING.....PER Gods "WAY"...
OF: FORGIVENESS AND CONVERSION...
I Believe IS PERMANENT.
* SHOULD a man...WHO IS CONVERTED:
Stumble, make stupid choices, etc.....
* SEVERAL THINGS SHALL APPLY:
1) that man shall bare his own burden...
(EX. Divorce, lose his family, his home, income, maybe his job, etc.
2) (EX. Commit a crime, ruin his reputation, owe a fine, be incarcerated
3) (EX. Cheat, Lie, Steal...again, the consequences are his burden to bare.
4) HE SHALL "LOSE" SPIRITUAL Blessings and Rewards HE COULD HAVE HAD...."BY" DOING works that "GLORIFY GOD".
5) ALL WORKS (by the Converted or Not)....
THAT DO "NOT" Glorify GOD....
"SHALL BE BURNED".
* WHAT A CONVERTED MAN...
WILL NEVER LOSE...
IS...Gods spirit WITH and IN him.
IS...to ESCAPE Gods WRATH.
IS...the Salvation of his soul.
IS...the Quickening of his spirit.
IS...Gods Promise to Raise his body in Glory.
Glory, Glory, Glory, to our Holy, Holy, Holy
Lord God Almighty,
Taken
There's something else to this also. We can speculate over what we will do in a given situation. A woman who is terrified of the prospect of childbirth and motherhood may consider abortion, may even think it's OK, but if she is a Christian, there is the very distinct possibility that regardless of her reasoning, and bias, and denial, whatever may be happening, there is every possibility that when the time came to do the deed, the Holy Spirit would simply not allow her to.
Much love!
That would interfere with her free will and if the HS ever directly stopped a person from sinning then there could be no judgment. The Spirit can be quenched.
I think you did good personally and during the tribulation a lot of people are going to get out of their comfort zone.
You already did and the answer is still the same
The "free will" stuff again!
We were slaves to sin, now we've become slaves to righteousness.
Predestination is a fixed boundery that you don't cross.
When I came to Christ, I handed over control to Him. Whatever He wants me to do, or whatever He wants to do with me, He's Lord. All that remains is training me in cooperation. He disciples me.
I'm quite convinced myself that He does sometimes prevent me from carrying out poor choices I've made. And I really do trust Him to take care of me even against me. I'm my own worst enemy, you know! That is, my flesh is my worst enemy, I think. And even if it's getting the upper hand with me, no, Jesus is under no obligation to let it win.
Much love!
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