Can you be pro-choice and still be a Christian?

[Curtis]

Can you support pro-choice and abortion and still be a Christian?

I would say that its possible to be a Christian who is saved and be severely wrong on worldview issues. But I could be wrong.

There are a lot of Christians who don't have biblical values. Are all of them not saved?

If not, please explain. I realize the road is narrow but isn't salvation based on the belief in the salvation of Christ and His Lordship and not on having the correct worldview?

I believe abortion is a grave sin, one of the defining moral issues of our time. But I think its possible for someone to hold the wrong view but they simply haven't developed a biblical worldview and be ignorant of its importance.

What do you think?

Can you be a Christian and support the WW2 Holocaust?

That holocaust only murdered 14 million, the abortion holocaust is 70 million in America alone.

 

[Wynona]

The "free will" stuff again!



We were slaves to sin, now we've become slaves to righteousness.

Predestination is a fixed boundery that you don't cross.

When I came to Christ, I handed over control to Him. Whatever He wants me to do, or whatever He wants to do with me, He's Lord. All that remains is training me in cooperation. He disciples me.

I'm quite convinced myself that He does sometimes prevent me from carrying out poor choices I've made. And I really do trust Him to take care of me even against me. I'm my own worst enemy, you know! That is, my flesh is my worst enemy, I think. And even if it's getting the upper hand with me, no, Jesus is under no obligation to let it win.

Much love!

I can't agree with this. Righteousness is something we have to actively walk in, not something that the Holy Spirit causes us to do against our will.

 

[Curtis]

The "free will" stuff again!



We were slaves to sin, now we've become slaves to righteousness.

Predestination is a fixed boundery that you don't cross.

When I came to Christ, I handed over control to Him. Whatever He wants me to do, or whatever He wants to do with me, He's Lord. All that remains is training me in cooperation. He disciples me.

I'm quite convinced myself that He does sometimes prevent me from carrying out poor choices I've made. And I really do trust Him to take care of me even against me. I'm my own worst enemy, you know! That is, my flesh is my worst enemy, I think. And even if it's getting the upper hand with me, no, Jesus is under no obligation to let it win.

Much love!

Calvinism is a vile insult to God’s character and nature.

 

[Curtis]

I can't agree with this. Righteousness is something we have to actively walk in, not something that the Holy Spirit causes us to do against our will.

Did you ever read about the slaves in America that didn’t want set free from slavery, and refused to accept deliverance when it was offered?

No? Well neither did anyone else.

Being a slave does not mean having no desire or will to be free, nor does it mean total inability to escape slavery when possible.

Thus we expose another false Calvinist doctrine, that being a slave to sin means having no desire to be free, and no ability to accept the gospel and be set free from being a slave to sin.

Calvinism remains a heinous and grave insult of Gods character and nature.

 

[marks]

Calvinism is a vile insult to God’s character and nature.

Okay.

I'm not Calvinist you know.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I can't agree with this. Righteousness is something we have to actively walk in, not something that the Holy Spirit causes us to do against our will.

Romans 6:16-18 KJV
16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Haven't we ceded control to God? Isn't the right life to simply allow God to have His way with us?

But even so, what I'm saying here is that I believe God does actively stop us from sinning sometimes. He did it with Balaam and Abimelech. He did it with Saul of Tarsus. He gets in our way, and turns us aside. He dries up our fountains, He changes who we are.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I can't agree with this. Righteousness is something we have to actively walk in, not something that the Holy Spirit causes us to do against our will.

Trusting in Christ results in walking in righteousness.

Much love!

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

The "free will" stuff again!



We were slaves to sin, now we've become slaves to righteousness.

Predestination is a fixed boundery that you don't cross.

When I came to Christ, I handed over control to Him. Whatever He wants me to do, or whatever He wants to do with me, He's Lord. All that remains is training me in cooperation. He disciples me.

I'm quite convinced myself that He does sometimes prevent me from carrying out poor choices I've made. And I really do trust Him to take care of me even against me. I'm my own worst enemy, you know! That is, my flesh is my worst enemy, I think. And even if it's getting the upper hand with me, no, Jesus is under no obligation to let it win.

Your personal convictions aside, thats simply wrong on all points

 

[Wynona]

Romans 6:16-18 KJV
16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Haven't we ceded control to God? Isn't the right life to simply allow God to have His way with us?

But even so, what I'm saying here is that I believe God does actively stop us from sinning sometimes. He did it with Balaam and Abimelech. He did it with Saul of Tarsus. He gets in our way, and turns us aside. He dries up our fountains, He changes who we are.

Much love!

So you're saying Saul's encounter on Damascus road was something that changed him against his will?

 

[marks]

Your personal convictions aside, thats simply wrong on all points

We were slaves to sin, now we've become slaves to righteousness.

Romans 6:16-18 KJV
16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


Predestination is a fixed boundery that you don't cross.

προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.


When I came to Christ, I handed over control to Him. Whatever He wants me to do, or whatever He wants to do with me, He's Lord. All that remains is training me in cooperation. He disciples me.

Isn't that what LORD means?

I'm quite convinced myself that He does sometimes prevent me from carrying out poor choices I've made.

Like Balaam, Like Abilmelech, and Pharoah (Abraham's time), Saul of Tarsus, each of these were stopped by God from continuing in courses of sin, and in different ways.

When I was 18 and trying so hard to kill myself, there were literal miracles that kept me from dying. It wasn't time yet apparently.

And I really do trust Him to take care of me even against me. I'm my own worst enemy, you know! That is, my flesh is my worst enemy, I think. And even if it's getting the upper hand with me, no, Jesus is under no obligation to let it win.

"Casting all your cares on Him, for He cares for you."

Am I the only one here who is trusting Jesus to pull me back from sin? The battle between spirit and flesh goes on, and my flesh is pretty messed up! It puts up one hell of a fuss, and is insidious. Serious. I trust Jesus in this also.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So you're saying Saul's encounter on Damascus road was something that changed him against his will?

I'm saying he had made his choice . . . he was on his way, fullfilling his own will, and Jesus stopped him, and diverted him. If Jesus had not stopped Saul, he would have continued on his sinful way. God overwhelmed him, and blinded him. Sometimes He just does what He needs to do.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So you're saying Saul's encounter on Damascus road was something that changed him against his will?

Against his will. It's interesting to think about. Saul's will was to persecute Christians.

For the Ethiopian, Philip explained the Word, shared the Gospel. The man chose to believe and was baptized. But Jesus completely overwhelmed him, and blinded him. So much for Saul's choice! Did God force him to stop? How could he when he was blind?

Much love!

 

[Wynona]

I'm saying he had made his choice . . . he was on his way, fullfilling his own will, and Jesus stopped him, and diverted him. If Jesus had not stopped Saul, he would have continued on his sinful way. God overwhelmed him, and blinded him. Sometimes He just does what He needs to do.

Much love!

Even if that was what the Holy Spirit did, is this a norm to be expected for any temptation that assualts us on a daily basis?

You said trusting in Jesus results in righteousness but how does that work apart from the active participation of the person involved?

If someone is struggling against sin, what do you tell them?

 

[marks]

Even if that was what the Holy Spirit did, is this a norm to be expected for any temptation that assualts us on a daily basis?

You don't think that God turned Saul aside from his own pursuit by overwhelmning his senses, and leaving him blind?

No, I don't see this as the standard method.

You said trusting in Jesus results in righteousness but how does that work apart from the active participation of the person involved?

We are the one who has to choose to trust.

We trust in Jesus' death, that we are completely and permanently reconciled to God, which results in us standing in His grace. We are free to walk in the Spirit, and in the Spirit, our lives show His fruit, which is righteousness.

If we don't . . . if we need it . . . God has promised to chasten us, and has promised that this chastening will in fact result in "the peaceable fruits of righteousness". Is it our choice that we are chastened? Or is that chastening God's choice, because we aren't making the right choices?

If someone is struggling against sin, what do you tell them?

Jesus has freed you from the power of sin, and the power of the flesh. It doesn't always look like it, but trust Jesus that it is true! Hold on, endure, until this time passes. And trust Jesus!

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

Romans 6:16-18 KJV
16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Haven't we ceded control to God? Isn't the right life to simply allow God to have His way with us?

But even so, what I'm saying here is that I believe God does actively stop us from sinning sometimes. He did it with Balaam and Abimelech. He did it with Saul of Tarsus. He gets in our way, and turns us aside. He dries up our fountains, He changes who we are.

Much love!

The message from Paul is that believers are nevertheless constantly tempted to walk in the sins of the flesh, which requires a daily dying to self, and requires subjugation of our flesh, and he warns the brethren over and over that the consequences of sowing to the flesh instead of the spirit is death, but sowing to the spirit reaps everlasting life.

Scriptural truth requires examining all the scriptures on a topic, not just the ones we like.

I would much prefer OSAS to be true, but clearly it isn’t.

Maranatha

 

[Addy]

Oh those evil OSAS'ers... Everything seems to turn into this topic...LOL

It doesn't matter how many times someone who is SECURE in their SALVATION will SHOUT... SIN is bad... all of it... we still get lambasted with accusation upon accusation.

Security in Salvation ( OSAS )... simply means as CHILDREN... we can freely grow and bloom without the THREAT of losing our Father's love...

Have you ever seen an earthly child who does NOT feel loved by their Father?? All kinds of problems ensue from that scenario... and much sin is birthed from this scenario.

It amazes me how people seem to enjoy looking at God in the same light as these bad earthly fathers... SAVED on Monday because you were good... and ooops... sorry... you lost it on Thursday...try again for Friday. Do good and be good... LOL Don't really need a Saviour with that thinking.

Anyways... I am NOT pro-choice... I am pro-life... Does God have mercy for those women who had abortions??? Absolutely.

 

[Truman]

Oh those evil OSAS'ers... Everything seems to turn into this topic...LOL

It doesn't matter how many times someone who is SECURE in their SALVATION will SHOUT... SIN is bad... all of it... we still get lambasted with accusation upon accusation.

Security in Salvation ( OSAS )... simply means as CHILDREN... we can freely grow and bloom without the THREAT of losing our Father's love...

Have you ever seen an earthly child who does NOT feel loved by their Father?? All kinds of problems ensue from that scenario... and much sin is birthed from this scenario.

It amazes me how people seem to enjoy looking at God in the same light as these bad earthly fathers... SAVED on Monday because you were good... and ooops... sorry... you lost it on Thursday...try again for Friday. Do good and be good... LOL Don't really need a Saviour with that thinking.

Anyways... I am NOT pro-choice... I am pro-life... Does God have mercy for those women who had abortions??? Absolutely.

I am pro-free-will, since God gave it to us.

 

[Curtis]

1 John 1:8 if we, as believers, say we have no sin, we lie and deceive ourselves.

Next verse: but when we confess our sins, they are forgiven.

Maranatha

 

[2ndRateMind]

Interesting contradiction

What about submitting our will to Jesus and repenting and following His word? That's what Christians do isn't it?

As a "deeply Christian" person, how do you reconcile those 2 statements you made? ...

It was a hypothetical. But perhaps I should explain that my definition of a deep Christian is one who follows Jesus' two great commandments: that we are to love God, and to love each other. In this case, that love transcends both secular pro-life and pro-choice positions. And like all matters of ethical principle, you can gauge the degree of love by the degree of sacrifice involved. If I manage to save one life by what I write, though it costs me heaven, I will consider that a fair exchange.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

But perhaps I should explain that my definition of a deep Christian is one who follows Jesus' two great commandments: that we are to love God, and to love each other. In this case, that love transcends both secular pro-life and pro-choice positions. And like all matters of ethical principle, you can gauge the degree of love by the degree of sacrifice involved.

Translated that means you simply created your own "personal" jesus ( a False Jesus) using bits and pieces of what he said to wrap up as it supports your own personal "philosophy" while diminishing/disregarding the rest? That hardly meets the legitimate Scriptural requirements of submitting to Jesus as he requires yet you "claim" the title. That begs the question...

Do you believe and accept Jesus as the final and only authority and His will and requirements reign supreme and that you abide in His word? (If you love me you will keep my commandments- Jesus didn't allow for cherry picking). Are you a Christian by the scriptural requirements and yield yourself to that authority?

If I manage to save one life by what I write, though it costs me heaven, I will consider that a fair exchange.

What profits a man to save the flesh but lose the soul? That answered everything right there.