Can you be pro-choice and still be a Christian?

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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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Yes, I do evade some questions.

That's a given

The questions I evade are barely disguised insults, loaded questions, and irrelevances.

No, thats just a short list of excuses you hide behind. I have no problem re-posting half dozen or so recent ones you can specifically point out those claims you are trying pretend are true and run from them yet again. Say the word and it will happen.

Since your world view is so objective, I would have thought you would have realised that by now.

I see clearly and realize both the actual truth and the one (s) you are trying to pass off as the truth. Which would you like to discuss first?
 

2ndRateMind

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Well, you could start by explaining your arrogant assumption that you know as much as God. On what grounds do you make this claim? And if you could answer that in a well mannered way, that would earn you a bonus: your choice of the next question I answer.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

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Well, you could start by explaining your arrogant assumption that you know as much as God. On what grounds do you make this claim?

Thank you very much for the opportunity to once again factually rebuke you. That is very gracious indeed.

I have never made any such claim and i respectfully challenge you to establish the basis of such an unfounded statement and provide strict proof and posts to support the validity of such a thing and put them here.

Thanking you in advance I am

Regards

And if you could answer that in a well mannered way, that would earn you a bonus: your choice of the next question I answer.

That was well mannered and proper. I have many questions stored in quotes so let me know when you will actually answer a direct question with a direct answer as you agreed
 

Curtis

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Paul in Philippians 2 says that 'it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'. The flesh cannot glory in His presence.

Nowhere does it say God forces us to do any works.
 

Curtis

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It was a hypothetical. But perhaps I should explain that my definition of a deep Christian is one who follows Jesus' two great commandments: that we are to love God, and to love each other. In this case, that love transcends both secular pro-life and pro-choice positions. And like all matters of ethical principle, you can gauge the degree of love by the degree of sacrifice involved. If I manage to save one life by what I write, though it costs me heaven, I will consider that a fair exchange.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Transcends pro choice how?

Abortion on demand is heinous murder of an unborn human, and is showing no concern, mercy, or love for her unborn baby by the mother.
 

2ndRateMind

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No need to look too far back then.

I see clearly and realize both the actual truth and the one (s) you are trying to pass off as the truth ...

Since the actual truth must be complete and comprehensive, as well as cogent, consistent and coherent, that clearly implies you know as much as God.

Best wishes 2RM.
 
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2ndRateMind

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Transcends pro choice how?

Abortion on demand is heinous murder of an unborn human, and is showing no concern, mercy, or love for her unborn baby by the mother.

I agree that abortion shows no love for the unborn baby to be, and it is finding that love that transcends pro-choice. I would just caution against casting judgment, since theory may not reflect the circumstances, and judgment is likely to alienate the very people, the mothers to be, we want to persuade.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 

Ziggy

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Every time this topic comes up I think of the woman who had an issue of blood for 12 years.
And she spent a lot of money on physicians but they only made things worse.
And right after that the ruler of the Synagogue comes to Jesus asking him to help his 12 year old daughter.
And Jesus rose her from the dead.
The woman it says, told Jesus all the truth about what happened.
And Jesus told his disciples not to mention what happened.

Now, one could speculate that this woman became pregnant.......
and perhaps tried to hide it so the ruler of the synagogue and she would not be found out.
I don't know if the father and the mother is the same woman whom Jesus healed.. it doesn't say.

I just don't think the 12 years in both instances are a coincidence.
I know I'm reading a lot into this because it doesn't go into any real details, and leaves it to the readers interpretation of what this "plague" was.
And because it was a "plague" means it was kind of like a curse.

So let's say the woman tried to end her pregnancy because they thought they would both be stoned to death.
The child survived. And the father , the ruler of the synagogue took her home.
I like to think there are some circumstances where all sins that we willingly confess will be forgiven.
Even abortion.
I'm not talking about "birth control" . I'm talking about a mistake.
Being fearful of being caught.

I was 13 when I knew I was pregnant. I had gone to a party and got drunk. I passed out, and the next morning I woke up in an abandoned house naked. I don't remember what happened. I don't know who I was with. To this day I do not know who the father of my daughter is.
I was about 16 weeks along before I got the courage up to tell my parents I thought I was pregnant. I had just turned 14.
My mom took me to the doctor and boy was I embarrassed never having had an "exam" before.
Now this was back in 1979. They didn't have planned parenthood clinics where you could just walk in and take a number.
I also grew up in a family that that choice wasn't an acceptable choice.
I was given 2 choices. Keep the baby or give it up for adoption.
My parents helped me raise her. Without their help and support.... I don't know what the outcome would have been.
I know I was scared. My father practically disowned me. Or should I say lost all respect for me.
But we got through it by God's grace.

Kids today... parents are a lot less willing to take on another mouth to feed. And abortion is the easiest answer when your young and have your whole life ahead of you. I missed out on high school because young mother's were considered a bad influence on other girls and they didn't want that in the schools.

anywhooo..
I guess I'm saying.. you have to know the individual circumstances before you can make a good judgement call.
I agree today most kids just do what they do and if they get caught they just rather not have the responsibility.
I personally would never have one. I think if even given the option back then I would of declined.
Was and wasn't my fault. I never should have gone to that party and got drunk. But I never went with the intention of getting drunk, it just was what it was.

I understand the fear though. And if kids don't have parents like my parents, what options do they believe they have?
Today, abortion is too easy. There are alternatives. There are couples willing to adopt. There are programs for young mothers wanting to keep their babies. But it's become a money making industry and kids are encouraged to take the "easy" route.
Although I understand that "easy" isn't so easy later when the guilt sinks in... like a plague.
People have to be informed that there are other options and other people who are willing to work with them and help them make a very serious decision that will effect the rest of their lives.

If your going to be permiscuous though, and you know that things lead to other things, then it is their responsibility to take precautions.
There are plenty of them today. And kids aren't "ignorant" of what can happen at parties.. like I was.
Or if they are then parents should inform their kids when they reach puberty of all the dangers of drinking, drugs and situations you could unexpectedly find one self in.
I just wish that option wasn't as easily available and promoted as it is today.
But for kids that find themselves in the same situation I did, and take that route...
I believe like the woman whom Jesus healed when she told him all the truth,
that he would hear them and forgive them too.

It's a rough world out there.
Just sharing...
Hugs
 

Enoch111

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If someone is struggling against sin, what do you tell them?
If that person is a Christian, you tell them that they are not supposed to "struggle" with sin. They are supposed to be "dead" to sin. A dead man does not struggle.

ROMANS 6: DEAD TO SIN ALIVE TO GOD

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
 
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Addy

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These hit and run posts made by some are absolutely without thought or feeling. Good grief.... ( in my opinion ).
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

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Since the actual truth must be complete and comprehensive, as well as cogent, consistent and coherent, that clearly implies you know as much as God.

That's nonsensical even for you but when you have less than nothing to hide behind I guess anything will do.

Your entire statement is non sequitur and isn't even a good straw man. The discussion was on objectivity of world views and your agenda. ( which has been proven based on your own points and my questions you evade)

It had nothing to do with me or anyone "knowing as much as God" but to that point, God has made His Will and Knowledge ( what He wants us to know) known and available to us through His word so we actually are supposed to and responsible for "knowing the mind and will of God" which is a growth process.

Lets see your next attempt to waffle and evade.
 

2ndRateMind

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Hmmm. Let me render my argument as transparent as I can.

Premise 1) The 'Actual Truth' is complete and comprehensive.
Premise 2) God is omniscient, and knows the 'Actual Truth'.
Premise 3) No human has a complete and comprehensive command of knowledge.
Premise 4) @An Apologetic Sheepdog is a human
Conclusion1) @An Apologetic Sheepdog does not know the actual truth.
Conclusion2) @An Apologetic Sheepdog does not know as much as God, though he claims to know 'actual truth'.

The point being, despite scripture, you cannot claim to know objective, 'actual', God's truth. You inhabit, like the rest of us, a regime of uncertainty.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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Hmmm. Let me render my argument as transparent as I can.

What you have submitted is best referred to as The A Priori Argument fallacy. Its not even a very strong one at that so will take just a few seconds to obliterate.

Premise 1) The 'Actual Truth' is complete and comprehensive.
Premise 2) God is omniscient, and knows the 'Actual Truth'.
Premise 3) No human has a complete and comprehensive command of knowledge.
Premise 4) @An Apologetic Sheepdog is a human
Conclusion1) @An Apologetic Sheepdog does not know the actual truth.
Conclusion2) @An Apologetic Sheepdog does not know as much as God, though that he claims to know 'actual truth'.

The point being, despite scripture, you cannot claim to know objective, 'actual' truth. You inhabit, like the rest of us, a regime of uncertainty.

First- if your premise 3 is correct then you cannot possibly state premise 1 & 2 as a fact to form the basis of your position. ( you lose by default because your own argument implodes on itself)

Second- as stated before your entire "argument" is a Complex Question logical fallacy shored by a defensiveness bias because none of it is in proper context to the facts in the discussion.

Third- your final conclusion is nothing more that an either/or reasoning fallacy based on your own straw man points most probably ( but not stated as a certainty) believed in part by at least Stage-3 Dunning-Kruger Effect.

That's a professional effective rebuttal- ready for those questions yet?
 

Cristo Rei

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Can you support pro-choice and abortion and still be a Christian?

I would say that its possible to be a Christian who is saved and be severely wrong on worldview issues. But I could be wrong.

There are a lot of Christians who don't have biblical values. Are all of them not saved?

If not, please explain. I realize the road is narrow but isn't salvation based on the belief in the salvation of Christ and His Lordship and not on having the correct worldview?

I believe abortion is a grave sin, one of the defining moral issues of our time. But I think its possible for someone to hold the wrong view but they simply haven't developed a biblical worldview and be ignorant of its importance.

What do you think?

Well there are Christians that are pro choice. There was one guy in particular on this forum, StanB, who was pro choice and had a very strong argument... Strictly speaking, sola scriptura, the bible doesn't actually condemn abortion... And he is right...

Im not sola scriptura so i disagree with abortion is wrong but he makes a valid point. He also refers to a passage where there is an abortion.

I wish he was here to put his point across but i think his sick
 

2ndRateMind

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What you have submitted is best referred to as The A Priori Argument fallacy. Its not even a very strong one at that so will take just a few seconds to obliterate.



First- if your premise 3 is correct then you cannot possibly state premise 1 & 2 as a fact to form the basis of your position. ( you lose by default because your own argument implodes on itself)

On the contrary, one doesn't have to know everything to get a sense of one's own ignorance. One does need to know all the pertinent facts, however, if one claims to know the 'actual' objective truth about some topic.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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Wynona

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Well there are Christians that are pro choice. There was one guy in particular on this forum, StanB, who was pro choice and had a very strong argument... Strictly speaking, sola scriptura, the bible doesn't actually condemn abortion... And he is right...

Im not sola scriptura so i disagree with abortion is wrong but he makes a valid point. He also refers to a passage where there is an abortion.

I wish he was here to put his point across but i think his sick

But you don't doubt that he is a Christian?
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

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On the contrary, one doesn't have to know everything to get a sense of one's own ignorance.

Is there a point to this waffling or is this a standard word salad smoke screen to avoid addressing the aforementioned points? That's meaningless bantering.

One does need to know all the pertinent facts, however, if one claims to know the 'actual' objective truth about some topic.

Which in this case on the points presented has been done with almost surgical strike accuracy. Even barney has picked up on it in the other thread- its that obvious.

So, which fact do you think (wish) i didn't have and haven't shown?
 

2ndRateMind

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Is there a point to this waffling or is this a standard word salad smoke screen to avoid addressing the aforementioned points? That's meaningless bantering.



Which in this case on the points presented has been done with almost surgical strike accuracy. Even barney has picked up on it in the other thread- its that obvious.

So, which fact do you think (wish) i didn't have and haven't shown?


So, we seem to have wandered off-topic. I will start a new thread where I intend to discuss the matter at hand, and try and pull the strings together.
But that may take me some time. Thank you for your patience.

Best wishes, 2RM.