Catholic issues

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
12,992
4,798
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When Jesus said "Take and eat", He was still alive. How could that meal he fed be His literal body?

Look. We don’t need people like you throwing around facts and logic. The RCC has their little man-made doctrine. And if you don’t surrender your mind and everything else they’ll threaten you with eternal damnation.

They claim to be our only mediator to our only mediator. Accepting it is a matter of faith.

God did not found his church on his own unlimited power to make his will manifest. No. No. No. God founded his church on a poor, illiterate, 1st century fisherman from the wilderness frontier of the Roman Empire. Then waited 11 centuries the organization who claims his lineage.

It’s logical but our carnal minds are too puny to grasp how
Definition
Logic
Language Usage


Does not apply to RCC.
 

Cassandra

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2021
2,506
2,870
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Symbols do not kill. Would Christ risk His ministry over symbols?
Communion is for us to remember His death. He need not repeatedly die. He died once.--it was enough. He showed the disciples how to commemorate His death before He died. He is now a different body as well.
Symbols don't have to kill. But they can commemorate a death.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,082
5,276
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Communion is for us to remember His death. He need not repeatedly die. He died once.--it was enough. He showed the disciples how to commemorate His death before He died. He is now a different body as well.
Symbols don't have to kill. But they can commemorate a death.

That is not what this is about.
You need to go back read my post.
 

Philip James

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
4,275
3,091
113
Brandon
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Communion is for us to remember His death. He need not repeatedly die. He died once.

Hello Cassandra,

Indeed, we offer the Lamb who ONCE was slain and now lives forever (Rev 5:6)

From the very beginning (~The Didache~) the Church recognized the offering of the Eucharist as the fulfillment of Malachi 1:11,
and truly today it can be plainly seen that:


For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.


Peace be with you!
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Beautiful words amigo.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Vs 18 Christ has “ALL” authority!

Vs 19 Christ endows His apostles with His authority!
Christ sends His apostles to teach “all”!
Christ commands the apostles to baptize those who accept!

Vs 20 Christ commands the apostles to teach the baptized to observe all He has commanded the apostles!

God establishes His authority in men and we must obey them!

God always establishes peace and order in obedience to hierarchical authority of men!

“I DO NOT LISTEN TO MEN”!
“Tradition of men”!

Anti-biblical!
Totally impossible!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
 

Cassandra

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2021
2,506
2,870
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't think that verse in Malachi means the thing you think it means.

And beyond that, again, He was still alive when He told the disciples to "take and eat". Symbolic. He wasn't missing parts.

Heb 10:11-12 "11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,"
Don't you believe the sacrifice is not enough and that is why it is repeated, over and over hundreds of thousands of times daily?A commemoration is different from the actual death. The Bible says He died once. You have Him in earthly flesh, He is in a non earthly state. How can you partake if He is in a different body? Don't you call Him a victim?


I have a friend who cannot partake of the Mass because she has a gluten allergy. If it is truly Christ's body, would this even be a worry? What’s a practicing Catholic with celiac disease to do? | BeyondCeliac.org
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Communion is for us to remember His death. He need not repeatedly die. He died once.--it was enough. He showed the disciples how to commemorate His death before He died. He is now a different body as well.
Symbols don't have to kill. But they can commemorate a death.

who said he died or died more than once?

mal 1:11 pure offering or clean oblation or an unbloody sacrifice

his sacrifice is offered for all
His merits
Jn 1:16-17
Jn 1:29
The Passover was a perpetual sacrifice
 

Cassandra

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2021
2,506
2,870
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
the Passover happened once, and is commemorated. Is the Host resurrected flesh or mortal flesh? The first one, if Jesus is present in the eucharist, was mortal, for it was given to the disciples while He was living. Now it has to be different.

I have no problem with communion. What I don't understand is the necessity of making Jesus flesh and bone in a wafer, instead of commemorating His death by symbolism.

And if it were known by the disciples that this is what He was doing, why was it not addressed until the 11th century and then not authorized until the council of Trent? That's a long time to declare something that should've been common knowledge.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
the Passover happened once, and is commemorated. Is the Host resurrected flesh or mortal flesh? The first one, if Jesus is present in the eucharist, was mortal, for it was given to the disciples while He was living. Now it has to be different.

I have no problem with communion. What I don't understand is the necessity of making Jesus flesh and bone in a wafer, instead of commemorating His death by symbolism.

And if it were known by the disciples that this is what He was doing, why was it not addressed until the 11th century and then not authorized until the council of Trent? That's a long time to declare something that should've been common knowledge.

but the apostolic tradition is from the beginning

we need to receive Christ and remain in communion with him and each other

we need to daily receive the life

John 6

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,082
5,276
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What I don't understand is the necessity of making Jesus flesh and bone in a wafer,

Henry Ford....Chicken McNuggets....Ticketron on your Smart-Phone

And it is just easier if the priest is the only one that gets the wine.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Henry Ford....Chicken McNuggets....Ticketron on your Smart-Phone

And it is just easier if the priest is the only one that gets the wine.

there is no bread or wine after the miracle of transubstantiation
The substance of bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grailhunter

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,082
5,276
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
there is no bread or wine after the miracle of transubstantiation
The substance of bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ

Humor
But it is not the point
More the reason for going from unleavened bread and wine to the wafer. In large congregations unleavened bread and wine would be time consuming and messy. No time left for the sermon and worship services.
 

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
22,800
39,084
113
52
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think i would faint for joy and pass out cold , if thee faith ever once made a post that talked about Christ and not his own catholic church .
I notice that most folks are hung up on their church , their denonmination , Yet never just teach about JESUS and the words in the bible .
 

Philip James

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
4,275
3,091
113
Brandon
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I don't think that verse in Malachi means the thing you think it means.

Hi Cassandra,

Not what I think, rather what our brothers and sisters have thought and taught for 2000 years..

From the Didache that I linked written around 75 AD:

On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;
But let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled.

For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord
, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen."

You will find this too in the liturgies of all the ancient apostolic churches.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum!
 
  • Like
Reactions: theefaith

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Cassandra,

Not what I think, rather what our brothers and sisters have thought and taught for 2000 years..

From the Didache that I linked written around 75 AD:

On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;
But let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled.

For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord
, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen."

You will find this too in the liturgies of all the ancient apostolic churches.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum!

Malachi 1:11
Wycliffe Bible

11 For from the rising of the sun till to the going down, my name is great among heathen men; and in each place a clean offering is sacrificed, and offered to my name; for my name is great among heathen men, saith the Lord of hosts. (For from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, my name is great among the heathen; and in each place a clean, or a pure, offering is sacrificed, and offered in my name; for my name is great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.)

Malachi 1:11
Darby Translation

11 For from the rising of the sun even unto its setting my name shall be great among the nations; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure oblation: for my name shall be great among the nations, saith Jehovah of hosts.

Clean oblation or pure offering or unbloody sacrifice
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A hallmark of a poor argument is to substitute succinct analysis with copious paragraphs of ramblings.

do you have to obey

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Vs 18 Christ has “ALL” authority!

Vs 19 Christ endows His apostles with His authority!
Christ sends His apostles to teach “all”!
Christ commands the apostles to baptize those who accept!

Vs 20 Christ commands the apostles to teach the baptized to observe all He has commanded the apostles!

God establishes His authority in men and we must obey them!

God always establishes peace and order in obedience to hierarchical authority of men!

“I DO NOT LISTEN TO MEN”!
“Tradition of men”!

Anti-biblical!
Totally impossible!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Flock of sheep!

Calm waters / green pastures
No changes
Faithful
obedience
Submissive
Christians saints
Rightous Children of God
Humble
Meek
Patience
The communion of saints!


Flock of goats!

The flock that rocks
Rocky places
Constant change
Unfaithful protesting
Disobedience
Rebellion
Heretics full of errors
Children of unrighteousness
Pride
Presumptuous
Arrogance

The camp of heretics!