Catholics

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,946
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Catholic Historical Review
page 192 under --- TRANSLATION OF THE MILAN DECREE
First Paragraph
I , Constantine Augustus, and I, Licinius Augustus, at a propitious juncture meeting in Milan, and taking under consideration the whole range of public interest and safety, have come to the conclusion that among all matters conducive to the public weal those ought to be settled in the very first place, by which the reverence due to [the] Deity is safeguarded {to wit} that we give to the Christians as well as to all {others} free permission to follow the Religion which each one chooses, in order that [whatever]
Deity there is on the heavenly Throne may be propitiated and show itself favorable to ourselves and to all that are under Our Power!!!
As I read this I am lead to believe, that there was more than one Religion practiced in Rome at this time, Second that which ever Deity that was more Power-full would bless the Empire of Rome. Rome was a polytheistic Empire.
I never said that Constantine was POPE, there were many Roman Emperors that laid claim to the Title Pontiff Maximums because they were accredited the title of high priest to the other Beliefs, being Emperor or King they had full Authority over these other Religions.
www.biblicalcatholic.com for the above statement.
as far as melding as the edict of Milan states, there was already a vast mixture of different Religions within the Empire, Constantine had just included the Christians, and award them their holdings back! Everyone except the Jews!!!!
I am not Anti- Catholic, I am Anti-Idolatry which I believe my Master would agree with.
Thou shall not add to or diminish from the words of God!!!
If you add to, then it is no longer the words of God, it becomes the words of Man
if you diminish from the words of God, Again it is no longer the words of God, but the words of Men
I believe that I have used info from Catholic Sites, as to not be offensive, but only to be within accredited sites.
If I am wrong I am sure that you will be ready to correct me1
Hmmmm . . . .
You never answered ANY of the questions I asked based on your previous post.
Namely:
1. That the Catholic Church was established by Rome and not Jesus and the Apostles
2. Constantine
was the first Catholic Pontiff.
3. Constantine "melded" paganism with Christianity.

NOWHERE, in the excerpt from the Edict of Milan is there ANY evidence to support these 3 claims of yours. Religious freedom did not "meld" anybody's beliefs.

I have stated repeatedly that an "anti-Catholic" is a person who resorts to LIES to make his arguments against the Church. This is precisely what you have done - unless you can answer those questions.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,946
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No...the original splinter was in following a man instead of the spirit of God: the rock, instead of the Rock.
And you lose this argument because you cannot point to the beginning of the Catholic Church.
That's where you ALL lose. If you're going to make a claim about the Catholic Church being a "splinter" - then you have to give me dates and documented proof.

You see - I can DO that with your Protestant sects - but YOU can't do that with regards to the Catholic Church . . .

If you worship Cornerstone Church, it was founded by John C. Hagee in May of 1975 in San Antonio, Texas. Since then, several other churches have adopted this name.

If you are a believer at the Vineyard Christian Fellowship, your denomination was started by Ken Gullickson and Keith Green in Santa Monica, California in 1974.

If you are a member of Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith began your congregation in Costa Mesa, California in 1965.

If you are a follower of the Church of Scientology, your group owes is origin to L. Ron Hubbard in Washington, D.C. in 1952.

If you are a worshipper at the Iglesia in Cristo, Felix Manalao instituted your sect in the in 1914.

If you are a disciple of the Assemblies of God or other splinter Pentecostal groups, “Church of the Nazarene”, “Holiness Church”, “Pilgrim Holiness Church”, your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men during the 20th century.

If you are a Christian Scientist, your organization was brought into existence by Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy in 1879.

If you are a Jehovah's Witness, your church was established by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in 1879.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Seventh Day Adventist, Mrs. Ellen Gould White inaugurated your group in the in 1860.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), your religion was organized in New York by Joseph Smith in 1830.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Methodist, your form of Protestantism is credited to John Wesley in London in 1738.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you are a Baptist, you look to John Smyth as originator of your institution in Amsterdam in 1609.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you are a member of the Orthodox Church (Russian, Eastern or Greek), your church went into schism in 1054.

If you are a Catholic, your Church was founded in Jerusalem by Jesus Christ (Acts 2, 1 Tim. 3:15) with Peter as its first Pope (Mt. 16:18-19, Lk. 22:31-32, Jn. 21:15-17) in the year 33 A.D.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,946
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh, the nerve of them pesky protestants! I bet they all LIE in bold. Chill brother and lets find some common ground so you can convert me. Catholics do that too, right? After reading some of Aspens posts I'm almost there. If he's catholic then maybe I am too and I didn't know it.
Then explain what you mean by "labels".

In post #1975, you gave a generic definition of the word - but not in the context that you used it.
Please explain . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,946
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So BoL, you claim that I am a dissident Catholic.....where is your proof? Have I taught heresy? Am I denying core Catholic doctrine? Or you simply upset (and, yes your writing on this thread reads as upset, angry and offended, despite your denials) that I am not crusading with you?

Seems like bearing false witness territory, to me. Especially since you do not know me or my faith in practice.
WRONG.
In post #1603, I laid out a few examples of your dissident beliefs and basic ignorance of the Catholic faith:

Post # 1082:
YOU posted: As far as Vatican I is concerned - it is very likely that I would have never joined the Catholic Church before 1965 because I believe the church placed too much power in the hands of the clergy.

Post #588
YOU posted: "I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church - I joined as an adult, after several years of study. I attend Mass and I am also attending a Quaker Church."

Post #600
Marymog asked:
Can you name another "denomination" that can trace their history back that far?
Your response: “Coptic, Orthodoxy”
You were NEVER able to substantiate this false claim.

Post #555
In defense of the anti-Catholic lies I was arguing against - YOU posted: "BoL - is the Roman Catholic Church perfect?"

Post #533
"Even Adam and Eve were given permission to be wrong"
This is patently false. They were commanded NOT to sin.

Post #1374
You posted the false anti-Catholic lie:
Jews Are Saved Even Without Believing in Christ, Vatican Claims

Post #1378
YOU
posted: “Wait! The Pope didn't say that ex cathedra! Wait! That didn't come from the Pope at all! Wait that statement didn't come from the Vatican either! Wait, wait, wait.....it only came from BoL.......nevermind”
Neither the Pope – NOR the Vatican made the false claim you posted.

Post #1234
YOU
posted the following in defense of all of the anti-Catholic lies that I was exposing:
"Unitatis redintegratio"
I corrected you by showing you that this was NOT a defense of anti-Catholic lies..

Post #1261
YOU
posted the following lie:
“Umm ok, let me connect the dots for you - the Pope wrote Unitatis redintegratio.”
Unitatis Redintegratio is a Conciliar document – not a Papal encyclical.

Your lies are well-documented . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,946
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Post#1994
Fair enough.

Actually - the Catholic Church is not a "denomination" - but the original Tree from which Protestantism splintered.
Lutherans and Calvinists and Wesleyans and Millerites are precisely the types of factions what Paul was warning against (1 Cor. 1:10-17).
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And you lose this argument because you cannot point to the beginning of the Catholic Church.
That's where you ALL lose. If you're going to make a claim about the Catholic Church being a "splinter" - then you have to give me dates and documented proof.

You see - I can DO that with your Protestant sects - but YOU can't do that with regards to the Catholic Church . . .

If you worship Cornerstone Church, it was founded by John C. Hagee in May of 1975 in San Antonio, Texas. Since then, several other churches have adopted this name.

If you are a believer at the Vineyard Christian Fellowship, your denomination was started by Ken Gullickson and Keith Green in Santa Monica, California in 1974.

If you are a member of Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith began your congregation in Costa Mesa, California in 1965.

If you are a follower of the Church of Scientology, your group owes is origin to L. Ron Hubbard in Washington, D.C. in 1952.

If you are a worshipper at the Iglesia in Cristo, Felix Manalao instituted your sect in the in 1914.

If you are a disciple of the Assemblies of God or other splinter Pentecostal groups, “Church of the Nazarene”, “Holiness Church”, “Pilgrim Holiness Church”, your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men during the 20th century.

If you are a Christian Scientist, your organization was brought into existence by Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy in 1879.

If you are a Jehovah's Witness, your church was established by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in 1879.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Seventh Day Adventist, Mrs. Ellen Gould White inaugurated your group in the in 1860.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), your religion was organized in New York by Joseph Smith in 1830.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Methodist, your form of Protestantism is credited to John Wesley in London in 1738.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you are a Baptist, you look to John Smyth as originator of your institution in Amsterdam in 1609.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you are a member of the Orthodox Church (Russian, Eastern or Greek), your church went into schism in 1054.

If you are a Catholic, your Church was founded in Jerusalem by Jesus Christ (Acts 2, 1 Tim. 3:15) with Peter as its first Pope (Mt. 16:18-19, Lk. 22:31-32, Jn. 21:15-17) in the year 33 A.D.
I give you nothing, nor do I need to. Nor do you have anything.

You speak of the affairs of men, I speak of the spirit of God. You speak of the "rock', I speak of the "Rock."

Come, or go. That is the choice you have been given.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pia

Pisteuo

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
333
595
93
47
Ozarks
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Fair enough.

Actually - the Catholic Church is not a "denomination" - but the original Tree from which Protestantism splintered.
Lutherans and Calvinists and Wesleyans and Millerites are precisely the types of factions what Paul was warning against (1 Cor. 1:10-17).

Well we agree that Paul was talking about divisions in The Church. That's one church. He's speaking of The One Body. You say it's splintered into 50,000. I say it wouldn't matter if it was 50,000,000. It's still One Body. The Body of Christ. How do we know? We follow Jesus. Christ-followers. The label (lol) you use doesn't make you a Christ-follower or any holier than those seeking Him outside your denomination. (I know, Catholics claim they aren't a denomination. Weird....me neither)
 
  • Like
Reactions: pia and Helen

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,946
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I give you nothing, nor do I need to. Nor do you have anything.

You speak of the affairs of men, I speak of the spirit of God. You speak of the "rock', I speak of the "Rock."

Come, or go. That is the choice you have been given.
Your problem is that you think it either the Church or Christ.
HE doesn't see it that way because HE equates His Church with Himself (Acts 9:4-5).

The Catholic Church had it's beginning with Jesus and His Apostles.
Matt. 16:18 speaks of only ONE Rock whop would be the earthly head of Christ's Church - and that was Peter.

I submit to Christ's Church because it is the ONLY Authority He left us with.
I submit to Christ's Church because in doing so, I submit to HIM:

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

YOU reject His Church - and in doing so, reject HIM . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,946
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well we agree that Paul was talking about divisions in The Church. That's one church. He's speaking of The One Body. You say it's splintered into 50,000. I say it wouldn't matter if it was 50,000,000. It's still One Body. The Body of Christ. How do we know? We follow Jesus. Christ-followers. The label (lol) you use doesn't make you a Christ-follower or any holier than those seeking Him outside your denomination. (I know, Catholics claim they aren't a denomination. Weird....me neither)
ONE Church, huh?
Interesting . . .

At the Last Supper - Jesus prayed fervently that HIS Church remain ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).
Of the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering splintered factions - the teachings are as different as night and day . . .
Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

Tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering factions are not ONE Church.
They're tens of thousands of factions who have followed men OUT of the Church . . .
 

Pisteuo

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
333
595
93
47
Ozarks
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes.

If one is led by the Spirit, following Christ he/she belongs to The Church. They are a part of the Body of Christ. They may very well look and talk like a Catholic or a Baptist, ect., but they are still a part of the Body. And you say tens of thousands followed men out of the Church. Did they continue to live for God? If not, they are the world and not The Church. If they did, then they are still a part of the Body of Christ. You don't recognize them? You may be looking for the wrong indicators.

1) Members of the Body of Christ are joined to Christ in salvation (Ephesians 4:15-16).

2) Members of the Body of Christ follow Christ as their Head (Ephesians 1:22-23).

3) Members of the Body of Christ are the physical representation of Christ in this world. The Church is the organism through which Christ manifests His life to the world today.

4) Members of the Body of Christ are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9).

5) Members of the Body of Christ possess a diversity of gifts suited to particular functions (1 Corinthians 12:4-31). “The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ” (verse 12).

6) Members of the Body of Christ share a common bond with all other Christians, regardless of background, race, or ministry. “There should be no division in the body, but . . . its parts should have equal concern for each other” (1 Corinthians 12:25).

7) Members of the Body of Christ are secure in their salvation (John 10:28-30). For a Christian to lose his salvation, God would have to perform an “amputation” on the Body of Christ!

8) Members of the Body of Christ partake of Christ’s death and resurrection (Colossians 2:12).

9) Members of the Body of Christ share Christ’s inheritance (Romans 8:17).

10) Members of the Body of Christ receive the gift of Christ’s righteousness (Romans 5:17).[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your problem is that you think it either the Church or Christ.
HE doesn't see it that way because HE equates His Church with Himself (Acts 9:4-5).

The Catholic Church had it's beginning with Jesus and His Apostles.
Matt. 16:18 speaks of only ONE Rock whop would be the earthly head of Christ's Church - and that was Peter.

I submit to Christ's Church because it is the ONLY Authority He left us with.
I submit to Christ's Church because in doing so, I submit to HIM:

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

YOU reject His Church - and in doing so, reject HIM . . .
Indeed, the church is Christ.

But your problem is that you see yourself where you are not. It is you (and the Catholic church) who have rejected the One who sent Christ, because you did not hear the spirit when Christ spoke to Peter, and turned to the flesh instead.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption."
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,946
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes.

If one is led by the Spirit, following Christ he/she belongs to The Church. They are a part of the Body of Christ. They may very well look and talk like a Catholic or a Baptist, ect., but they are still a part of the Body. And you say tens of thousands followed men out of the Church. Did they continue to live for God? If not, they are the world and not The Church. If they did, then they are still a part of the Body of Christ. You don't recognize them? You may be looking for the wrong indicators.

1) Members of the Body of Christ are joined to Christ in salvation (Ephesians 4:15-16).
2) Members of the Body of Christ follow Christ as their Head (Ephesians 1:22-23).
3) Members of the Body of Christ are the physical representation of Christ in this world. The Church is the organism through which Christ manifests His life to the world today.
4) Members of the Body of Christ are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9).
5) Members of the Body of Christ possess a diversity of gifts suited to particular functions (1 Corinthians 12:4-31). “The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ” (verse 12).
6) Members of the Body of Christ share a common bond with all other Christians, regardless of background, race, or ministry. “There should be no division in the body, but . . . its parts should have equal concern for each other” (1 Corinthians 12:25).
7) Members of the Body of Christ are secure in their salvation (John 10:28-30). For a Christian to lose his salvation, God would have to perform an “amputation” on the Body of Christ!
8) Members of the Body of Christ partake of Christ’s death and resurrection (Colossians 2:12).
9) Members of the Body of Christ share Christ’s inheritance (Romans 8:17).
10) Members of the Body of Christ receive the gift of Christ’s righteousness (Romans 5:17).
Sorry - but I just can't argue with God's Word.
Paul states emphatically that Christ is not divided and neither can His Church be divided (1 Cor. 1:10-17).

For example - MOST of your points about what the members of the Body of Christ are is true. #7, however is false and was NEVER taught by Christ's Church until the 16th century. This is a prime example of the division of Protestantism. It's factionism, pure and simple - and is rejected by Scripture.

This list I presented in my last post was just a very small list of the doctrinal differences among the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually splintering factions who ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to be part of the "ONE" Church of Christ.

In Matt. 18:15-18, Jesus tells His Apostles that if a brother sins against one of them - they should take 2 brothers and confront that person. If they refuse to listen - then they should go to the CHURCH as the final Authority.

Tell me - if YOU are a Baptist and the other guy is a Lutheran - WHO do you take the problem to??
 
Last edited:

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,946
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Indeed, the church is Christ.

But your problem is that you see yourself where you are not. It is you (and the Catholic church) who have rejected the One who sent Christ, because you did not hear the spirit when Christ spoke to Peter, and turned to the flesh instead.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption."
So, for 15 centuries - Christ's Church was lost?
You are now treading on dangerous ground because you are implying that He was a LIAR when He said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church.

Where was His Church for the 15 centuries PRIOR to the Protestant Revolt??
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, for 15 centuries - Christ's Church was lost?
You are now treading on dangerous ground because you are implying that He was a LIAR when He said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church.

Where was His Church for the 15 centuries PRIOR to the Protestant Revolt??
No, for 35 centuries, but you think to make it 70.

The gates of hell do not prevail, nor do you when you call the flesh good.

The church is in Christ.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,946
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, for 35 centuries, but you think to make it 70.

The gates of hell do not prevail, nor do you when you call the flesh good.

The church is in Christ.
35?? 70??
What
are you talking about??

The Protestant Revolt occurred 15 centuries after Jesus established the Church.
 

Truth

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2017
1,737
1,797
113
71
AZ, Quartzsite
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hmmmm . . . .
You never answered ANY of the questions I asked based on your previous post.
Namely:
1. That the Catholic Church was established by Rome and not Jesus and the Apostles
2. Constantine
was the first Catholic Pontiff.
3. Constantine "melded" paganism with Christianity.

NOWHERE, in the excerpt from the Edict of Milan is there ANY evidence to support these 3 claims of yours. Religious freedom did not "meld" anybody's beliefs.

I have stated repeatedly that an "anti-Catholic" is a person who resorts to LIES to make his arguments against the Church. This is precisely what you have done - unless you can answer those questions.


First I never said that Constantine was the First CATHOLIC Pontiff. I said he was the first Pontiff, which I thought that I had basically retracted with my last post, saying that there were Roman Emperors before and up to Constantine that LAID CLAIM to this Title, And in the Edict of Milan it is obvious!! at the time of Constantine that Rome was Polytheistic already, Constantine only began to show Favor to the Christian believers, and was adding them to the list of all. Jesus is the HEAD of the True Faith, there is dispute about who made Christianity the Official Religion of Rome. Constantine in 313 or Theodsius later in 380.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
35?? 70??
What
are you talking about??

The Protestant Revolt occurred 15 centuries after Jesus established the Church.
This is a time, times, and half a time, of which it is written, which things were before the foundation of the world.
 

Pisteuo

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
333
595
93
47
Ozarks
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In Matt. 18:15-18, Jesus tells His Apostles that if a brother sins against one of them - they should take 2 brothers and confront that person. If they refuse to listen - then they should go to the CHURCH as the final Authority.

Tell me - if YOU are a Baptist and the other guy is a Lutheran - WHO do you take the problem to??

I would agree with mine adversary quickly while I was in the way with him. Maybe even forgive him.
Mat 6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 
Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. 

Jesus worked that out, too. Although admittedly this is harder in practice than I make it seem here.