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eldios

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Instead of just telling me how wrong I am, why don't you tell me your private understanding of Jeremiah 33:17 and Daniel 2:44 that makes sense???

It never makes any sense to take one sentence out of an entire symbolic story about the day of the Lord that is written about in Jeremiah 33. This story is in reference to the day when everything on earth will be destroyed by the fire of God which hasn't happened yet.

Daniel 2 is a symbolic story about the beast and what will happen to all the visible images that human beings built with their human hands such as all the false gods that religious people build, their church buildings, golden altars and crowns of jewels, etc. Christianity was used by God to teach the rest of the world beyond the Roman Empire how to build false gods with their human hands according to the beast. All these false gods will be destroyed on the day of the Lord. The Lord will come in fire ( hot molten lava ) and melt all the visible images that we observe on earth.
 

epostle1

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White: "For this to be true, of course, it would have to follow that DA has evidence that Dan bowed down to these statues, lit candles to them, prayed to them, and sought the intercession of these men of God. Of course, Armstrong doesn’t have that evidence, and, of course, Dan didn’t do that, which only shows once again that Armstrong has no compunctions about constructing straw-men. "
Evidence if worship of these statues is not the issue. The fact that they exist and supported by an iconoclast like White is hypocrisy. The statues themselves is evidence that he can't ignore, so he obfuscates..

I note briefly in passing as well that Armstrong’s response proves that he is unable to engage the actual texts under discussion outside of relying upon secondary sources.
it's from a face book blog. It's not supposed to be a textual discussion. Dave Armstrong
That is, all he can do is try to line up commentators on one side or the other and say, “See, my point is possible because these guys say so.” But he is not capable of responding to the substance of the comments regarding martu,rwn, qeatai, etc., for this is beyond his area of study.
White is the slipperiest polemicist on the 'net. He has a reputation for excessive use of rabbit trails and, non sequiturs and every fallacy ever thought of..
Now, there is nothing wrong with someone being ignorant of the original languages, exegesis, etc., however, there is everything wrong in being ignorant of these things and yet making repeated pronouncements about the conclusions of the study of these fields.
Notice how White changes the subject. He condemns statues of Jesus and Mary but supports statues of the reformers. His hypocrisy is exposed. What repeated pronouncements? He's squirming.

Bishop “Dr.” [?] James White: Anti-Catholic Extraordinaire (Index Page)
 

epostle1

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It's a rock, it didn't witness anything. Inanimate objects can't hear, can't see, can't talk. Calling that rock a witness and setting it up to be revered as something holy or sacred is idolatry.
It's not my fault you can't understand metaphors. You have no evidence of anyone revering the obelisk, just airhead accusations.
 

epostle1

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Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics, by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics, and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.

The nineteenth century witnessed a flowering of this "pagan influence fallacy." Publications such as The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (the classic English text charging the Catholic Church with paganism) paved the way for generations of antagonism towards the Church...

The pagan influence fallacy has not gone away in the twentieth century, but newer archaeology and more mature scholarship have diminished its influence. Yet there are still many committing it.

The pagan influence fallacy is committed when one charges that a particular religion, belief, or practice is of pagan origin or has been influenced by paganism and is therefore false, wrong, tainted, or to be repudiated. In this minimal form, the pagan influence fallacy is a subcase of the genetic fallacy, which improperly judges a thing based on its history or origins rather than on its own merits (e.g., "No one should use this medicine because it was invented by a drunkard and adulterer"). (this is what Job does) There are 38 obelisks in the United States.

Very frequently, the pagan influence fallacy is committed in connection with other fallacies, most notably the post hoc ergo proper hoc ("After this, therefore because of this") fallacy—e.g., "Some ancient pagans did or believed something millennia ago, therefore any parallel Christian practices and beliefs must be derived from that source." Frequently, a variant on this fallacy is committed in which, as soon as a parallel with something pagan is noted, it is assumed that the pagan counterpart is the more ancient. This variant might be called the similis hoc ergo propter hoc ("Similar to this, therefore because of this") fallacy.

When the pagan influence fallacy is encountered, it should be pointed out that it is, in fact, a fallacy.

After receiving documentation supporting the claim of a pagan parallel, one should ask a number of questions:

1. Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not. The claim of a parallel may be erroneous, especially when the documentation provided is based on an old or undisclosed source. ...

2. Is the parallel dependent or independent? Even if there is a pagan parallel, that does not mean that there is a causal relationship involved. Two groups may develop similar beliefs, practices, and artifacts totally independently of each other. The idea that similar forms are always the result of diffusion from a common source has long been rejected by archaeology and anthropology, and for very good reason: Humans are similar to each other and live in similar (i.e., terrestrial) environments, leading them to have similar cultural artifacts and views.

For example, Fundamentalists have made much of the fact that Catholic art includes Madonna and Child images and that non-Christian art, all over the world, also frequently includes mother and child images. There is nothing sinister in this. The fact is that, in every culture, there are mothers who hold their children! Sometimes this gets represented in art, including religious art, and it especially is used when a work of art is being done to show the motherhood of an individual. Mother-with child-images do not need to be explained by a theory of diffusion from a common, pagan religious source (such as Hislop’s suggestion that such images stem from representations of Semiramis holding Tammuz). One need look no further than the fact that mothers holding children is a universal feature of human experience and a convenient way for artists to represent motherhood.

3. Is the parallel antecedent or consequent? Even if there is a pagan parallel that is causally related to a non-pagan counterpart, this does not establish which gave rise to the other...

4. Is the parallel treated positively, neutrally, or negatively? Even if there is a pagan parallel to a non-pagan counterpart, that does not mean that the item or concept was enthusiastically or uncritically accepted by non-pagans. One must ask how they regarded it. Did they regard it as something positive, neutral, or negative?

Similarly, the early Christians who adopted the cross as a symbol did not do so because it was a pagan religious symbol (the pagan cultures which use it as a symbol, notably in East Asia and the Americas, had no influence on the early Christians). The cross was used as a Christian symbol because Christ died on a cross—his execution being regarded as a bad thing in itself, in fact, an infinite injustice—but one from which he brought life for the world. Christians did not adopt it because it was a pagan symbol they liked and wanted to copy.
("pope" Hislop says all crosses are satanic, and continues to influence Bible cults)

Ultimately, all attempts to prove Catholicism "pagan" fail.
Catholic doctrines are neither borrowed from the mystery religions nor introduced from pagans after the conversion of Constantine. To make a charge of paganism stick, one must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world. One must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item. The obelisk in St. Peter's Square clearly fails the "pagan" test, and it was never more than a soap box for the ego of a Roman politician. Bigots can't be educated.

In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices. The charge of paganism just doesn’t work.
Is Catholicism Pagan? | Catholic Answers
 

bbyrd009

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Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics, by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics, and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.

The nineteenth century witnessed a flowering of this "pagan influence fallacy." Publications such as The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (the classic English text charging the Catholic Church with paganism) paved the way for generations of antagonism towards the Church...

The pagan influence fallacy has not gone away in the twentieth century, but newer archaeology and more mature scholarship have diminished its influence. Yet there are still many committing it.

The pagan influence fallacy is committed when one charges that a particular religion, belief, or practice is of pagan origin or has been influenced by paganism and is therefore false, wrong, tainted, or to be repudiated. In this minimal form, the pagan influence fallacy is a subcase of the genetic fallacy, which improperly judges a thing based on its history or origins rather than on its own merits (e.g., "No one should use this medicine because it was invented by a drunkard and adulterer"). (this is what Job does) There are 38 obelisks in the United States.

Very frequently, the pagan influence fallacy is committed in connection with other fallacies, most notably the post hoc ergo proper hoc ("After this, therefore because of this") fallacy—e.g., "Some ancient pagans did or believed something millennia ago, therefore any parallel Christian practices and beliefs must be derived from that source." Frequently, a variant on this fallacy is committed in which, as soon as a parallel with something pagan is noted, it is assumed that the pagan counterpart is the more ancient. This variant might be called the similis hoc ergo propter hoc ("Similar to this, therefore because of this") fallacy.

When the pagan influence fallacy is encountered, it should be pointed out that it is, in fact, a fallacy.

After receiving documentation supporting the claim of a pagan parallel, one should ask a number of questions:

1. Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not. The claim of a parallel may be erroneous, especially when the documentation provided is based on an old or undisclosed source. ...

2. Is the parallel dependent or independent? Even if there is a pagan parallel, that does not mean that there is a causal relationship involved. Two groups may develop similar beliefs, practices, and artifacts totally independently of each other. The idea that similar forms are always the result of diffusion from a common source has long been rejected by archaeology and anthropology, and for very good reason: Humans are similar to each other and live in similar (i.e., terrestrial) environments, leading them to have similar cultural artifacts and views.

For example, Fundamentalists have made much of the fact that Catholic art includes Madonna and Child images and that non-Christian art, all over the world, also frequently includes mother and child images. There is nothing sinister in this. The fact is that, in every culture, there are mothers who hold their children! Sometimes this gets represented in art, including religious art, and it especially is used when a work of art is being done to show the motherhood of an individual. Mother-with child-images do not need to be explained by a theory of diffusion from a common, pagan religious source (such as Hislop’s suggestion that such images stem from representations of Semiramis holding Tammuz). One need look no further than the fact that mothers holding children is a universal feature of human experience and a convenient way for artists to represent motherhood.

3. Is the parallel antecedent or consequent? Even if there is a pagan parallel that is causally related to a non-pagan counterpart, this does not establish which gave rise to the other...

4. Is the parallel treated positively, neutrally, or negatively? Even if there is a pagan parallel to a non-pagan counterpart, that does not mean that the item or concept was enthusiastically or uncritically accepted by non-pagans. One must ask how they regarded it. Did they regard it as something positive, neutral, or negative?

Similarly, the early Christians who adopted the cross as a symbol did not do so because it was a pagan religious symbol (the pagan cultures which use it as a symbol, notably in East Asia and the Americas, had no influence on the early Christians). The cross was used as a Christian symbol because Christ died on a cross—his execution being regarded as a bad thing in itself, in fact, an infinite injustice—but one from which he brought life for the world. Christians did not adopt it because it was a pagan symbol they liked and wanted to copy.
("pope" Hislop says all crosses are satanic, and continues to influence Bible cults)

Ultimately, all attempts to prove Catholicism "pagan" fail.
Catholic doctrines are neither borrowed from the mystery religions nor introduced from pagans after the conversion of Constantine. To make a charge of paganism stick, one must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world. One must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item. The obelisk in St. Peter's Square clearly fails the "pagan" test, and it was never more than a soap box for the ego of a Roman politician. Bigots can't be educated.

In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices. The charge of paganism just doesn’t work.
Is Catholicism Pagan? | Catholic Answers
oh pls kepha, i love Catholics, but imo just ignoring that salvation was for sale in the RCC at one point, etc, is hardly the way to go. Nor is pretending that their present troubles are not real. The charge of paganism works fabulously, where it applies, which is in a bunch of places, if not every Catholic heart.
 
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Mungo

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oh pls kepha, i love Catholics, but imo just ignoring that salvation was for sale in the RCC at one point, etc, is hardly the way to go.
Salvation was never for sale. As usual no evidence is provided for this charge.

Nor is pretending that their present troubles are not real. The charge of paganism works fabulously, where it applies, which is in a bunch of places, if not every Catholic heart.
And, as usual, no evidence is provided for this one either.
 

epostle1

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Name calling, how childish.
I was holding back. Provide evidence of anyone revering the obelisk, without resorting to lame unsubstantiated airhead accusations. Provide evidence the the Romans used it as a pagan idol. So you have to compound one lie with another lie because it fits your preconceived notions....like a typical anti-Catholic.
 
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epostle1

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oh pls kepha, i love Catholics, but imo just ignoring that salvation was for sale in the RCC at one point, etc, is hardly the way to go.
Salvation was never for sale at any point. That kind of lunacy is for ignorant bigots who are too proud to be corrected.
Nor is pretending that their present troubles are not real.
With 1.2 billion members their is bound to be some troubles somewhere. With your cult of one you have little to worry about.
The charge of paganism works fabulously, where it applies, which is in a bunch of places, if not every Catholic heart.
You "love Catholics" with this kind of insult? You're phony. Jumping on Job's sadistic anti-Catholic band wagon?
 

bbyrd009

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Salvation was never for sale. As usual no evidence is provided for this charge.


And, as usual, no evidence is provided for this one either.
well, we could just go right to the current litigation being settled, if you want to play lawyer and demand evidence, but really do you think it is wise to just pretend that indulgences, etc, were never sold? It kind of makes your position seem at best naive, i don't get it. Wouldn't it be better to acknowledge reality, so that you might be more readily believed where it counts? Instead it comes off like...i dunno just more indulgence or whatever.
 
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bbyrd009

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Salvation was never for sale at any point. That kind of lunacy is for ignorant bigots who are too proud to be corrected.
yes it was for sale, by the Roman Catholic Church, not 500 years ago, and it does not matter whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, but you are going to be dismissed at pretty much every other point, or at least i would think you would, if you cannot admit to such an already acknowledged issue.

Or i mean am i misrepresenting Indulgences or something? How much can you sweep under the rug before the rug trips you up?
 

Mungo

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well, we could just go right to the current litigation being settled, if you want to play lawyer and demand evidence,
Do you think it is unreasonable to ask for evidence of your absurd claims?

but really do you think it is wise to just pretend that indulgences, etc, were never sold? It kind of makes your position seem at best naive, i don't get it. Wouldn't it be better to acknowledge reality, so that you might be more readily believed where it counts? Instead it comes off like...i dunno just more indulgence or whatever.

You have just shown what an ignorant bigot you are.

Firstly, Indulgences are not concerned with salvation so, whether they were sold or not - and I'll come to that - your claim is false..
An indulgence is the remission before God of the temporal punishment due sins already forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned, which the follower of Christ with the proper dispositions and under certain determined conditions acquires through the intervention of the Church which, as minister of the Redemption, authoritatively dispenses and applies the treasury of the satisfaction won by Christ and the saints. (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1).

As the Catholic Encyclopaedia says
What an indulgence is not
To facilitate explanation, it may be well to state what an indulgence is not. It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power. It is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty, and much less from the obligation consequent on certain kinds of sin, e.g., restitution; on the contrary, it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God. It does not confer immunity from temptation or remove the possibility of subsequent lapses into sin. Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject.

Secondly, Indulgences were not sold.
Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences.
One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."
(Catholic Answers - Myths about Indulgences)
 

Job

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With 1.2 billion members their is bound to be some troubles somewhere.
You mean like the homosexual priests that are raping little boys and the billions of dollars the church is using to try and cover it up? Is that the kind of troubles you mean?
 

Mungo

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You mean like the homosexual priests that are raping little boys and the billions of dollars the church is using to try and cover it up? Is that the kind of troubles you mean?

Now whose being childish!

You said
You have the heart of an unruly child.

I don't debate children.
Well why don't you stop debating and take yourself off somewhere else?

Josho started the OP with "This is not a debate thread" and said ".... please try not to turn this into a debate..... If that's possible. Lets give the Catholics a fair go."

But as usual it didn't take long for the ignorant bigots, the nutters and the trolls to pile in.
 

bbyrd009

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You have just shown what an ignorant bigot you are.
look, i'm used to you forcing your definitions of words i have recently used, ok, and this word "bigot," it demonstrably does not mean what you are trying to make it mean, ok. I mean it's cute and all, but if that is all you got then that pretty much explains the rest.

I agree that with so many members, some bad behavior is inevitable, and i feel for the many priests i know who would never take advantage of their position. Unfortunately the problem is systemic, which i guess is inevitable being a worldly institution, and fwiw the Blind Eye thing is just another symptom, to add to the courtroom drama of wanting proof or "proving things" in general, when there is no proof.

This is why i don't talk to Catholics much, and i only wanted to make the point that you guys might give a little of the obviously already lost ground in order to make more important points. It's as rotten at the top of the RCC as anywhere else, and when you pretend that it is not it does not serve you.
 

Mungo

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I agree that with so many members, some bad behavior is inevitable, and i feel for the many priests i know who would never take advantage of their position. Unfortunately the problem is systemic, which i guess is inevitable being a worldly institution, and fwiw the Blind Eye thing is just another symptom, to add to the courtroom drama of wanting proof or "proving things" in general, when there is no proof.

I didn't ask you for proof. I asked for evidence. You seem to be incapable of offering even the slightest bit of evidence to back up your anti-catholic opinions and ramblings.
 

Mungo

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This is why i don't talk to Catholics much, and i only wanted to make the point that you guys might give a little of the obviously already lost ground in order to make more important points. It's as rotten at the top of the RCC as anywhere else, and when you pretend that it is not it does not serve you.

See what I mean. More rambling opinions without any evidence
 

bbyrd009

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well Mungo, it would not serve you anyway, and everyone else pretty much already understands the excesses at the top, i mean, what would be the point of me listing all of the estates of the bishops of Rome, or pointing out that Henry VIII was even outdone, Manor-wise, by an RCC bishop, who tried using it as bait to save his life, and etc?

I mean, i'm only going to get some apologetics for why RCC bishops need to live in luxury or whatever lol, pls.
I didn't ask you for proof. I asked for evidence.
lol, priceless. My bad, sorry :)
 
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