Change On The Last Trump

[GEN2REV]

Good, because interpreting scripture should not be like rocket science. It's intended for all of us to understand it, not just a select few.

Ah, so you're a Calvinist? That explains a lot in terms of your arrogance and holier than thou attitude.

The bottom line here is that you are (apparently) calling some people Christians who don't even belong to Christ. How does that make any sense?

Calvinists are OSAS.

That doesn't even almost follow the path of our conversation.

You are playing very dumb.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Calvinists are OSAS.

Are you?

That doesn't even almost follow the path of our conversation.

Yes, it does. You seemed to have a problem with me talking about someone formerly being a Christian but not being a Christian anymore. So, what is your problem with that? You're the one that's coming across as if someone can be a Christian without even being saved and belonging to Christ.

You are playing very dumb.

You're not even playing dumb if you think any unsaved person is a Christian. If I'm misunderstanding some of what you're saying then you are just not being clear in some of the things you're saying, which is on you. Take a class on how to communicate your thoughts clearly or something and then get back to me.

 

[GEN2REV]

Are you?

Yes, it does. You seemed to have a problem with me talking about someone formerly being a Christian but not being a Christian anymore. So, what is your problem with that? You're the one that's coming across as if someone can be a Christian without even being saved and belonging to Christ.

You're not even playing dumb if you think any unsaved person is a Christian. If I'm misunderstanding some of what you're saying then you are just not being clear in some of the things you're saying, which is on you. Take a class on how to communicate your thoughts clearly or something and then get back to me.

If you ever wanna have a reasoned, logical, point-by-point conversation/debate, let me know.

I'm jaded of all of the nonsense that goes on here from your kind.

I like to discuss Scripture, not chase insincere posers around in a circle who won't stick to an intelligent line of evolving discussion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you ever wanna have a reasoned, logical, point-by-point conversation/debate, let me know.

That's what I was trying to do, but your arrogance keeps you from being able to do that.

I'm jaded of all of the nonsense that goes on here from your kind.

What is my kind exactly? Your kind is clearly the kind that is completely full of themselves and has to resort to hurling insults around instead of making coherent arguments using scripture.

I like to discuss Scripture, not chase insincere posers around in a circle who won't stick to an intelligent line of evolving discussion.

No, you like to hurl insults around whenever someone disagrees with you about something instead of actually having a rational discussion about it. It's incredibly hypocritical for you to criticize someone else for not sticking to the discussion of Scripture.

 

[Davy]

Back to the topic...

Anyone have any HONEST Bible question about the 'change' on the "last trump" that Apostle Paul taught?

A further note of what Paul taught there in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 about that "last trump" change at the twinkling of an eye, he showed that happens when the resurrection happens...

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

When is that event of the dead being raised supposed to happen per God's Word? Well what did Lord Jesus say?...

John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will Which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

No confusion there folks, Jesus showed the resurrection will happen on the "last day". What "last day"? The last day of THIS PRESENT WORLD of course. So is that day before, or after... the great tribulation? After, of course.

Those who keep pushing the pre-trib rapture or mid-trib rapture lies don't care about your soul brethren. Nor do they care about their own souls. They are simply fixated on the idea of escape that the men they listen to and heed teaches them. They don't listen to Lord Jesus in His Word, and for that reason they stand in danger of Jesus closing the door upon them when He comes.

Jesus made the order of events of His future coming to gather His faithful Church simple in His written Word, so there's no excuse to not listen to Him in His Word about it.

 

[GEN2REV]

Anyone have any HONEST Bible question about the 'change' on the "last trump" that Apostle Paul taught?

No, not really, I guess.

The Bible makes it plain. Believers, alive or dead, will be raised and changed.

Unbelievers will not rise or change.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, not really, I guess.

The Bible makes it plain. Believers, alive or dead, will be raised and changed.

Unbelievers will not rise or change.

Yet, scriptures like Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15 very clearly indicate that unbelievers will be resurrected.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yet, scriptures like Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15 very clearly indicate that unbelievers will be resurrected.

I fully agree, the wicked will be resurrected to the second death in the resurrection of damnation, just as you quoted as seen below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[GEN2REV]

Yet, scriptures like Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15 very clearly indicate that unbelievers will be resurrected.

No, they don't clearly indicate that at all and I've proven that in great detail in other threads. I won't waste my time here on it again, but the words in all those verses DO NOT make that clear - as well as the verses prior to the John verses, as well as in other places in John that prove that only Jesus' sheep can hear His voice.

It is an absolute certainty that those verses do not prove what you are claiming they do. Period.

I fully agree, the wicked will be resurrected to the second death in the resurrection of damnation, just as you quoted as seen below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It just doesn't prove what you claim it does, Truth.

There is ample evidence in Scripture that a human being must have specific things take place in their life for them to have resurrection life - which proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that NOT everybody will be raised, at ANY time.

One glaring contradiction is the Daniel 12:2 verse does NOT say 'all', but says 'many.'

No Bible genius in the world can make the case that the word many does NOT imply an incomplete amount.

Many cannot in any way shape or form be translated as all; and the weight of Scripture as a whole proves that there will 100% certainly be those who are not raised from the dead.

It's just a Fact. Easily proven with Scripture.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, they don't clearly indicate that at all and I've proven that in great detail in other threads. I won't waste my time here on it again, but the words in all those verses DO NOT make that clear - as well as the verses prior to the John verses, as well as in other places in John that prove that only Jesus' sheep can hear His voice.

It is an absolute certainty that those verses do not prove what you are claiming they do. Period.

It just doesn't prove what you claim it does, Truth.

There is ample evidence in Scripture that a human being must have specific things take place in their life for them to have resurrection life - which proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that NOT everybody will be raised, at ANY time.

One glaring contradiction is the Daniel 12:2 verse does NOT say 'all', but says 'many.'

No Bible genius in the world can make the case that the word many does NOT imply an incomplete amount.

Many cannot in any way shape or form be translated as all; and the weight of Scripture as a whole proves that there will 100% certainly be those who are not raised from the dead.

It's just a Fact. Easily proven with Scripture.

Paul clearly taught of the resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust, just as John 5:28-29 teaches, time to throw the towel in Gen, will you triple down or save face, it's not to late?

Acts 24:14-15KJV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, they don't clearly indicate that at all and I've proven that in great detail in other threads. I won't waste my time here on it again, but the words in all those verses DO NOT make that clear - as well as the verses prior to the John verses, as well as in other places in John that prove that only Jesus' sheep can hear His voice.

Those verses all describe people who are clearly not believers as being resurrected. Deny it if you want, but it IS very clear in all of those verses.

It is an absolute certainty that those verses do not prove what you are claiming they do. Period.

I disagree. Those verses are very clearly talking about bodily resurrection and it is certain that believers would not be described as being resurrected unto shame and everlasting contempt or unto condemnation.

There is ample evidence in Scripture that a human being must have specific things take place in their life for them to have resurrection life - which proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that NOT everybody will be raised, at ANY time.

One glaring contradiction is the Daniel 12:2 verse does NOT say 'all', but says 'many.'

No Bible genius in the world can make the case that the word many does NOT imply an incomplete amount.

Many cannot in any way shape or form be translated as all; and the weight of Scripture as a whole proves that there will 100% certainly be those who are not raised from the dead.

It's just a Fact. Easily proven with Scripture.

I told you already before that the word "many" can describe the amount of something and doesn't necessarily mean not all. You apparently just ignored that. I gave the example of when Jesus said "many are called, but few are chosen". Was He saying that only some people are called to salvation and few are chosen or was He describing all people being called as "many"? You know He was talking about all people being called, so this proves that "many" does not necessarily mean "not all".

Let me give you a few examples from the Old Testament since the verse you're talking about, Daniel 12:2, is in the Old Testament. The word "many" in that verse is translated from the Hebrew word "raḇ" (Strong's H7227).

That word is used in the following verses:

Genesis 21:34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many (raḇ) days.

Is this verse only speaking of some of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land or all of the days he sojourned there? Clearly, it's referring to all of the days he sojourned there, the number of which was "many".

Genesis 30:43 And the man increased exceedingly, and had much (raḇ) cattle, and maidservants, and menservants, and camels, and asses.

It's not relevant to the discussion, but "the man" here is referring to Jacob. Is this talking about some of Jacob's cattle, maidservants, etc. or all of Jacob's cattle, maidservants, etc.? It's clear that it's referring to all of them and the number of them was described as "much".

Psalm 40:5 Many (rab), O LORD my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.

Is this talking only about some of God's wonderful works or all of them? Clearly, it's referring to all of them and the number of them is "many".

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many (rab) days.

Is this verse, that obviously comes from the same book as Daniel 12:2, only referring to some of the days that would go by until the vision/prophecy Daniel was given would be fulfilled or is it referring to all of the days until it would be fulfilled? It's clearly referring to all of the days until it would be fulfilled, the number of which would be "many".

I can give many more examples like these but I think I have sufficiently proven that your claim that the word "many" in Daniel 12:2 has to mean "not all" is clearly false.

 

[GEN2REV]

Paul clearly taught of the resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust, just as John 5:28-29 teaches, time to throw the towel in Gen, will you triple down or save face, it's not to late?

There's nothing to triple down about. I think you keep arguing for the same verses over and over so if we disagree about what those verses say, there's really nowhere left to go with it.

You and I agree on too much to make a big deal out of this one point/concept. I see Scripture indicating that the only people who possibly can be resurrected are those who have been given resurrection/eternal life by Jesus Christ and the Bible says that He chooses whom He gives that to - so I don't see how that makes the case that every single living person who has ever existed, or ever will, is going to be resurrected.

Oh well. We disagree.

I do find it interesting though that your insistence does actually help support Pre-Mil & OSAS - when those are doctrines you claim to disagree with, if I'm not mistaken.

Acts 24:14-15KJV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

This verse/wording just doesn't show anything definitive to me that proves it's speaking of all mankind. It just says 'the dead'. It can't be talking about the spiritually dead because then it wouldn't be including Christians.

I believe it is referring to the dead in Christ only; believers who have received what John 5:21 refers to as Jesus giving to those He chooses to. As well as what John 6 speaks of believers receiving when they ingest the Words of Jesus. John 6:63, John 6:68

I also believe Matthew 7:21-23 supports it, but that just begins circles of verses that go round and round and end up back where we started.

I have looked into it a good while now, diligently, and still am convinced of my position on it; not at all because I want to be right, but simply because that's what I see clearly in Scripture.

You don't agree.

That's ok.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yet, scriptures like Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15 very clearly indicate that unbelievers will be resurrected.

UNTO DAMNATION . lets not forget that .

 

[GEN2REV]

it is certain that believers would not be described as being resurrected unto shame and everlasting contempt or unto condemnation.

I've shown in other threads that Matthew 7:21-23 can only be speaking of believers, of those IN CHRIST.

Jesus declares that atheists, or "false converts", whatever label is applied, cannot cast out demons. It is not spiritually possible.

These are not atheists standing before Christ begging Him to acknowledge all that they've done in His Name. These are Christians who were saved, who believed, but who lived in sin because they were deceived by lies due to their lack of development of a love for the Truth.

They were on their way to heaven, but they blew it.

If what you are saying were true, Jesus would not teach us about the wide road and the narrow road.

FEW there be that find the narrow road, He says. FEW.

Does FEW sound like all professed, well-intentioned, Christians today? If so, you are really misinformed.

 

[Truth7t7]

There's nothing to triple down about. I think you keep arguing for the same verses over and over so if we disagree about what those verses say, there's really nowhere left to go with it.

You and I agree on too much to make a big deal out of this one point/concept. I see Scripture indicating that the only people who possibly can be resurrected are those who have been given resurrection/eternal life by Jesus Christ and the Bible says that He chooses whom He gives that to - so I don't see how that makes the case that every single living person who has ever existed, or ever will, is going to be resurrected.

Oh well. We disagree.

I do find it interesting though that your insistence does actually help support Pre-Mil & OSAS - when those are doctrines you claim to disagree with, if I'm not mistaken.This verse/wording just doesn't show anything definitive to me that proves it's speaking of all mankind. It just says 'the dead'. It can't be talking about the spiritually dead because then it wouldn't be including Christians.

I believe it is referring to the dead in Christ only; believers who have received what John 5:21 refers to as Jesus giving to those He chooses to. As well as what John 6 speaks of believers receiving when they ingest the Words of Jesus. John 6:63, John 6:68

I also believe Matthew 7:21-23 supports it, but that just begins circles of verses that go round and round and end up back where we started.

I have looked into it a good while now, diligently, and still am convinced of my position on it; not at all because I want to be right, but simply because that's what I see clearly in Scripture.

You don't agree.

That's ok.

The scripture below is self explanatory, it leaves no room for interpretation or guesswork, two resurrections are seen, (just/saved) (unjust/unsaved) it's that simple, clear, very easy to understand

Yes We Strongly Disagree

Acts 24:14-15KJV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

 

[GEN2REV]

The scripture below is self explanatory, it leaves no room for interpretation of guesswork, two resurrections are seen, (just/saved) (unjust/unsaved) it's that simple, clear, very easy to understand

Yes We Strongly Disagree

Acts 24:14-15KJV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

"a resurrection" vs "resurrection(s)"

Hmph.

Ok.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've shown in other threads that Matthew 7:21-23 can only be speaking of believers, of those IN CHRIST.

I'm talking about true believers here, not fakes. Don't you make any distinction between the two?

Jesus declares that atheists, or "false converts", whatever label is applied, cannot cast out demons. It is not spiritually possible.

These are not atheists standing before Christ begging Him to acknowledge all that they've done in His Name. These are Christians who were saved, who believed, but who lived in sin because they were deceived by lies due to their lack of development of a love for the Truth.

They were on their way to heaven, but they blew it.

This is why I said before that it doesn't matter if they once were Christians, they weren't Christians when they died, which is what matters. So, when they are resurrected, they will not be Christians who are resurrected, they will be non-Christians being resurrected. Whether they were once Christians before or not is irrelevant.

If what you are saying were true, Jesus would not teach us about the wide road and the narrow road.

FEW there be that find the narrow road, He says. FEW.

Where did I say otherwise?

Does FEW sound like all professed, well-intentioned, Christians today? If so, you are really misinformed.

What are you talking about, dude? Your definition of the word "Christian" is terribly flawed. Someone professing to be a Christians does not make them a Christian. A lot of these so-called Christians are not actually Christians. Those who have died or die before the return of Christ will be resurrected unto shame and everlasting contempt. They will not be Christians being resurrected unto shame and everlasting contempt, they will be non-Christians resurrected unto shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[GEN2REV]

I'm talking about true believers here, not fakes. Don't you make any distinction between the two?

This is why I said before that it doesn't matter if they once were Christians, they weren't Christians when they died, which is what matters. So, when they are resurrected, they will not be Christians who are resurrected, they will be non-Christians being resurrected. Whether they were once Christians before or not is irrelevant.

Where did I say otherwise?

What are you talking about, dude? Your definition of the word "Christian" is terribly flawed. Someone professing to be a Christians does not make them a Christian. A lot of these so-called Christians are not actually Christians. Those who have died or die before the return of Christ will be resurrected unto shame and everlasting contempt. They will not be Christians being resurrected unto shame and everlasting contempt, they will be non-Christians resurrected unto shame and everlasting contempt.

Once you start throwing 'dude' around, I lose all appetite to discuss anything more with you, dude.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

UNTO DAMNATION . lets not forget that .

Of course. That's the whole point. I'm refuting someone else's claim that only believers will be resurrected. Obviously, no believers will be resurrected unto damnation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Once you start throwing 'dude' around, I lose all appetite to discuss anything more with you, dude.

Give me a break. Are you that uptight that you have to end a discussion just because I used the word dude? You then used the word yourself, so you apparently aren't as upset at the use of that word as you're pretending to be. Is that worse than what you did, which was to misrepresent what I believe? Seems to me that you're using this as a convenient excuse to end the discussion instead of acknowledging that you're wrong.