Change On The Last Trump

[Davy]

NO unbeliever will be resurrected!!

Yes the wicked dead will be resurrected on the day of Christ's coming also, like Jesus said in John 5:28-29. Their resurrection type He called the "resurrection of damnation".

Isaiah 25 shows that all peoples, all nations, that are still alive will be changed, and not just Christ's elect changed to the "spiritual body" on that day of His return.

 

[Davy]

Yes, Dave is becoming more and more a preacher of propaganda.

How can any honest student of the Bible come to the conclusion that the wicked unrighteous will be changed, and/or resurrected, when the Bible plainly states they will all be destroyed upon Christ's return?

You have to be very young in the faith, and/or very naive, to believe these nonsensical claims that so many wolves are pushing throughout all of Christendom today.

Absolute nonsense.

That certainly shows Biblical ignorance, in light of the John 5:28-29 Scripture proof of the wicked dead raised on the day of His future coming...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

 

[GEN2REV]

You are hanging on a faulty premise from the very start, because Jesus said this happens on the day of His return...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That makes absolutely no difference to the topic of debate at all. Comparing Daniel 12:2 to John 5:28, John says all while Daniel says many.

In any case where you have two very similar passages with what appears to be a contradiction, you must look to other Scripture for clarification.

If you're honest, you would agree with that.

Is it many or all that will rise when Christ shouts? 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Jesus answers this question very clearly when He explains to us that only His sheep can hear His voice.

"... ye believe not because you are not of My sheep ... My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow Me: and I give unto them eternal life (nobody else BUT His sheep) and they shall never perish (everybody else will perish)..."
John 10:26-28

And all others cannot hear His voice at all.

"Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My Word. Ye are of your father the devil, ... And because I tell you the Truth, ye believe Me not. ... He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
John 8:43-44
John 8:45
John 8:47

And there we have it. Just before John 5:28 (the verse you are using for your proof text), we have Jesus reiterating this principle in John 5:24-25.

"...He that heareth My word (and ONLY he that heareth), ... hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; ... ."
John 5:24-25

Thus, we have a very definite division between those who can, and those who can NOT, hear Jesus' words, nor His shout. All of those folks will not, and cannot, rise at the resurrection.

And finally, Daniel 12:2 is correct in its wording.
Many (not all) shall awake. Of those who awake, those who hear the call, some will rise to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Notice: both of those categories have everlasting life; but only one of them is welcomed into God's arms.

Very eye-opening.

 

[GEN2REV]

Yes the wicked dead will be resurrected on the day of Christ's coming also, like Jesus said in John 5:28-29. Their resurrection type He called the "resurrection of damnation".

Isaiah 25 shows that all peoples, all nations, that are still alive will be changed, and not just Christ's elect changed to the "spiritual body" on that day of His return.

We are sorry to inform you that this post has been debunked in post #83.

Please revise your doctrine accordingly and refrain from any further posting of this heretical propaganda.

 

[n2thelight]

God told Adam in Gen. 3:19 that he came from the ground and that he would return to being dirt when he died. Turn to Gen. 2:7 and you can clearly see the Bible say "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground"! It does not say God took an immortal soul and made man!

The fact that Paul taught in 1 Cor. 15 that a person has to be given immortality means we do not inherently possess it. The fact that this chapter also shows Paul saying that all in Adam will die and be made alive through a resurrection shows that you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Human beings do not possess immortality, which is why the Bible teaches that it has to be given to us. We are dust, and apart from God, that's all we'll ever amount to being.

Yes God did tell Adam that he would return to dust (flesh) is dust . The soul comes from God placed in the dirt(flesh) for mans purpose.

Now to 1 Cor . 15 ,Paul says we have two bodies , which one do you think came first ?

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?

We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

Let's zoom a few verses ahead

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father.

1corin15

 

[n2thelight]

The dirt will NEVER EVER form a body again ,why is that so hard to understand ?

 

[Timtofly]

We are sorry to inform you that this post has been debunked in post #83.

Please revise your doctrine accordingly and refrain from any further posting of this heretical propaganda.

So God is incapable of being heard? You base your argument on the fact that God is not loud enough for some to hear?

Seems a great take away from the words heard by all throughout reality and eternity: "It is finished." There was a response to that:

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying"

I am thinking every one did indeed hear. Many just rejected the truth. And yes, when Jesus calls one from death, they will respond, because they have no choice in the matter. Where they end up is the only choice they ever could and did make.

 

[GEN2REV]

So God is incapable of being heard? You base your argument on the fact that God is not loud enough for some to hear?

Seems a great take away from the words heard by all throughout reality and eternity: "It is finished." There was a response to that:

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying"

I am thinking every one did indeed hear. Many just rejected the truth. And yes, when Jesus calls one from death, they will respond, because they have no choice in the matter. Where they end up is the only choice they ever could and did make.

Yes, Genius.

I'm claiming that God is not loud enough for some to hear.

 

[Davy]

That makes absolutely no difference to the topic of debate at all. Comparing Daniel 12:2 to John 5:28, John says all while Daniel says many.

You might try looking up that word "many" in the Hebrew. It has various meanings...

Ex 12:38
38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
KJV

2 Chron 13:8
8 And now ye think to withstand the kingdom of the LORD in the hand of the sons of David; and ye be a great multitude, and there are with you golden calves, which Jeroboam made you for gods.
KJV

And you're trying to hang a whole doctrine on that Hebrew for "many"? Especially when what Jesus said in John 5:28-29 was very plain? What's wrong with you?

 

[Davy]

We are sorry to inform you that this post has been debunked in post #83.

Please revise your doctrine accordingly and refrain from any further posting of this heretical propaganda.

And we are NOT sorry to inform you that your sole private interpretation of "many" in Daniel 12:2 has thoroughly been DEBUNKED!

 

[Davy]

So God is incapable of being heard? You base your argument on the fact that God is not loud enough for some to hear?

Seems a great take away from the words heard by all throughout reality and eternity: "It is finished." There was a response to that:

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying"

I am thinking every one did indeed hear. Many just rejected the truth. And yes, when Jesus calls one from death, they will respond, because they have no choice in the matter. Where they end up is the only choice they ever could and did make.

Nah, it's not that either. He is simply on a 'binge' with a junk doctrine with interpreting "many" in Daniel 12:2 how he wants. And you know how binge drinkers can be.

 

[GEN2REV]

You might try looking up that word "many" in the Hebrew. It has various meanings...

Ex 12:38
38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
KJV

2 Chron 13:8
8 And now ye think to withstand the kingdom of the LORD in the hand of the sons of David; and ye be a great multitude, and there are with you golden calves, which Jeroboam made you for gods.
KJV

And you're trying to hang a whole doctrine on that Hebrew for "many"? Especially when what Jesus said in John 5:28-29 was very plain? What's wrong with you?

And we are NOT sorry to inform you that your sole private interpretation of "many" in Daniel 12:2 has thoroughly been DEBUNKED!

Nah, it's not that either. He is simply on a 'binge' with a junk doctrine with interpreting "many" in Daniel 12:2 how he wants. And you know how binge drinkers can be.

So your new argument is that 'many' really means 'all' in its original language.

Well, ... nokay then.

Very profound counter there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Some of your questions are drifting back and forth between two concepts, but I will try and address them the best I can; for any further interest, peruse the thread Only Believers are Resurrected?
First of all, the word multitudes there has been changed; it is a modern translation you got that from. The KJV simply says many ... which, by definition, means not all.

The word "multitude" is a better translation because it doesn't lead people to draw false conclusions like you do when reading the KJV translation of the verse. But, no, many does not mean "not all". Where are you getting that from? It can be used to refer to many, but not all, of something, but not necessarily.

When Jesus said "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14), was He saying that only some people are called, but not all people? No. He was talking about all people being called, the number of whom are "many". That is how Daniel 12:2 should be understood as well. It's not as if there will be two different times when the dead are resurrected. There's no reason to think that Daniel 12:2 is a different event than John 5:28-29.

Therefore, if you look at the true meaning of that verse then, we have 'A portion of those who are dead will awake: a portion of that portion will wake to everlasting life, the rest to shame and everlasting contempt.'

Ok, so that begs some questions, doesn't it?

It begs the question of why you are assuming that "many" has to mean not all. That is simply not true.

1. If some will not awaken, why is that? Because not all are raised.
2. Who are they that don't awaken? They are unbelievers.

You are trying to tell me that some believers will be resurrected "to shame and everlasting contempt"? No way! I'm truly amazed that you would believe something like that.

3. If some of those who do awaken are ashamed and have everlasting contempt, why and how would that be? It can only be that some of those are accepted and some are not.
4. Who can those be? It can only be Christians who are separated by Jesus there; the sheep from the goats - the worthy/righteous from the unworthy/unrighteous.

A Christian is someone who belongs to Christ. No Christian will be among the goats who are cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). You should know better than this.

The answer is very simple. Those who do not awaken at all are those who never believed.

If someone never believed then they are NOT a Christian. You need to fix your definition of a Christian.

Belief gets you a ticket to resurrection. But it's what you do with your life after you have received the gift of belief Ephesians 2:8 that gets you a ticket to heaven ... or not.

What do you mean by this? What exactly do you think we need to do after we get "a ticket to resurrection" in order to get a ticket to heaven?

Therefore, some Christians (believers; followers of Jesus Christ as the original definition is/was) will awaken to shame and everlasting contempt because they did not truly follow Jesus in their heart and obey the Commandments. How do we know this? Matthew 7:21-23 & John 14:21-23

Those are not Christians then. You have a bad definition of the word Christian. Only someone who is truly in Christ and belongs to Him is a Christian.

How do we receive the Holy Spirit? We must obey the Commandments of God and then Jesus and the Father will make their home in our hearts. The Bible uses the word 'know' as a reference to physical sex, when one enters into someone. It uses it in the two stories of men wanting to know other men as well as men with women; but it has a spiritual meaning as well. It refers to when the Holy Spirit enters our hearts.

And what does Jesus say when He turns the believers away in Matthew 7:23? He says "depart from Me, I never knew you." If the Holy Spirit never enters into you due to reluctance in your heart to fully commit to God, you will not be welcomed into heaven.

Yes, those are Christians that are turned away in Matthew 7:21-23.Here we have one of multiple examples of the word all not meaning all. Many will claim a word in the Bible not meaning what it says to bolster their argument, but I can prove it.

First of all, we see in verses just prior to 28 that not all can hear Jesus' voice, but only His sheep.

"My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me."
John 10:27

And how do Jesus' sheep follow Him?
1 John 2:6
They walk as He walked.
And how did Jesus walk?
John 15:10
He obeyed all the Commandments of the Father.

So there we see that not all even CAN be raised. It is only those with resurrection life within them. And how do we get that? We must be given it from the Son. And does the Son give that to every single human being that is born? Absolutely not.

Nobody can come to Christ UNLESS the Father sends them to Him.
John 6:44
The Son gives resurrection life (quickening) only to those He chooses; absolutely not to everybody.
John 5:21

And here we see another example of all not really meaning all like we think it does.
Matthew 25:32

All nations here does not mean every single nation upon the face of the earth. It is better translated as all races, all ethnicities. How do we know? Because we are told that sinners are dealt with in the Judgment; the Judgment of the Day of the Lord - the Wrath of God and the Lamb. If they are dealt with at that time, what sense does it make that they be resurrected?

They will be like chaff in the wind and will be destroyed in the Judgment.
Psalms 1:4-5

Judgment Day is their judgment. They never stand before God to be judged for all their thoughts, words and deeds. God will not waste His time with them; but He will take the time to do that with those who He called and gave gifts of faith and spiritual blessings, etc. He will most certainly judge all those who call themselves by His Name - all Christians.Yes, the just and unjust Christians.No, actually they don't.Yes, that verse does present a person in hell consciously interacting.First of all, Revelation is a book of symbols, visions and non-literal, non-chronological information. And, for the record, I have seen you use that as a rebuttal here yourself. So, you might want to explain yourself there if you're acting like you support one position then switching camps when it suits you.

This was very difficult to follow. To the point where I don't even know how to respond to this. As far as the last things you said here, what are you talking about when you're claiming that I'm "switching camps when it suits you"? I do no such thing.

 

[GEN2REV]

The word "multitude" is a better translation because it doesn't lead people to draw false conclusions like you do when reading the KJV translation of the verse. But, no, many does not mean "not all". Where are you getting that from? It can be used to refer to many, but not all, of something, but not necessarily.

When Jesus said "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14), was He saying that only some people are called, but not all people? No. He was talking about all people being called, the number of whom are "many". That is how Daniel 12:2 should be understood as well. It's not as if there will be two different times when the dead are resurrected. There's no reason to think that Daniel 12:2 is a different event than John 5:28-29.

It begs the question of why you are assuming that "many" has to mean not all. That is simply not true.

You are trying to tell me that some believers will be resurrected "to shame and everlasting contempt"? No way! I'm truly amazed that you would believe something like that.

A Christian is someone who belongs to Christ. No Christian will be among the goats who are cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). You should know better than this.

If someone never believed then they are NOT a Christian. You need to fix your definition of a Christian.

What do you mean by this? What exactly do you think we need to do after we get "a ticket to resurrection" in order to get a ticket to heaven?

Those are not Christians then. You have a bad definition of the word Christian. Only someone who is truly in Christ and belongs to Him is a Christian.

This was very difficult to follow. To the point where I don't even know how to respond to this. As far as the last things you said here, what are you talking about when you're claiming that I'm "switching camps when it suits you"? I do no such thing.

Your feigned sincerity isn't even humorous it's so bad.

The Bible backs up everything I stated 100% and I built my rock-solid case using Scripture for every single pillar of my argument.

Your gaggle of heretics here are all the same. You are all the same person under many names.

Anyone with sincerity will see that I use plain Scripture to make my case every time and they will learn Truth, contrary to your best efforts.

Christians are shown to be lost multiple times, multiple ways throughout the Bible.

John 15:2
John 15:6
Matthew 7:21-23
(John 5:25-26; John 10:26-27; 1 Thessalonians 4:16)
2 Peter 2:21

And on and on and on.

Those who believe otherwise are deceived and are not wise.

 

[Timtofly]

Christians are shown to be lost multiple times, multiple ways throughout the Bible.

You have one flaw in your theory.

Your explanation is just universalism.

You are literally calling all those dead at the GWT redeemed. They were, but they rejected God's Atonement. They are no longer named in the Lamb's book of life.

There is no logical reason to proclaim those named in the book of life are not actually there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your feigned sincerity isn't even humorous it's so bad.

What in the world are you talking about?

The Bible backs up everything I stated 100% and I built my rock-solid case using Scripture for every single pillar of my argument.

Don't confuse your opinions with facts.

Your gaggle of heretics here are all the same. You are all the same person under many names.

Again, what in the world are you talking about?

Anyone with sincerity will see that I use plain Scripture to make my case every time and they will learn Truth, contrary to your best efforts.

I never said you didn't use scripture to make your case. I just believe you are interpreting scripture wrongly in some cases.

Christians are shown to be lost multiple times, multiple ways throughout the Bible.

John 15:2
John 15:6
Matthew 7:21-23
(John 5:25-26; John 10:26-27; 1 Thessalonians 4:16)
2 Peter 2:21

And on and on and on.

Anyone who is lost is not a Christian regardless of whether they once were or not. Christians are people who are saved. Those who are not saved are not actually Christians. Anyone can call themselves a Christian, but that doesn't make them one.

Those who believe otherwise are deceived and are not wise.

I didn't realize before that you're the holier than thou type, but you've made that very obvious at this point. You lose all credibility with your arrogance and holier than thou attitude.

 

[GEN2REV]

Anyone who is lost is not a Christian regardless of whether they once were or not. Christians are people who are saved. Those who are not saved are not actually Christians. Anyone can call themselves a Christian, but that doesn't make them one.

Uhhhh ...... ???

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Uhhhh ...... ???

What was hard to understand about what I said? A person who is saved is a Christian and a person who is unsaved is not a Christian. Is this rocket science?

 

[GEN2REV]

What was hard to understand about what I said? A person who is saved is a Christian and a person who is unsaved is not a Christian. Is this rocket science?

Hardly.

Nothing you have to say is rocket science.

And you stated that Christians can be lost if you say this, rocket genius:

Anyone who is lost is not a Christian regardless of whether they once were or not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hardly.

Nothing you have to say is rocket science.

Good, because interpreting scripture should not be like rocket science. It's intended for all of us to understand it, not just a select few.

And you stated that Christians can be lost if you say this, rocket genius:

Ah, so you're a Calvinist? That explains a lot in terms of your arrogance and holier than thou attitude.

The bottom line here is that you are (apparently) calling some people Christians who don't even belong to Christ. How does that make any sense?