Change On The Last Trump

[amigo de christo]

Of course. That's the whole point. I'm refuting someone else's claim that only believers will be resurrected. Obviously, no believers will be resurrected unto damnation.

Yes indeed , JESUS speaks of it . The ressurection of the just and the unjust . Yes indeed .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There's nothing to triple down about. I think you keep arguing for the same verses over and over so if we disagree about what those verses say, there's really nowhere left to go with it.

You and I agree on too much to make a big deal out of this one point/concept.

Since we are both Amils you and I actually agree on a lot, also, but for some reason you act like I'm your mortal enemy just because we disagree on this particular topic. Go figure.

 

[amigo de christo]

Let no man , woman or child enter into convenant with a HARLOT . Thus beware men for many have come to deceive .
We must stay planted in our bibles . Learning that JESUS and all the sound doctrine .

 

[GEN2REV]

Seems to me that you're using this as a convenient excuse to end the discussion

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

 

[Truth7t7]

Give me a break. Are you that uptight that you have to end a discussion just because I used the word dude? You then used the word yourself, so you apparently aren't as upset at the use of that word as you're pretending to be. Is that worse than what you did, which was to misrepresent what I believe? Seems to me that you're using this as a convenient excuse to end the discussion instead of acknowledging that you're wrong.

Ok guys, stop the bickering

Luke 17:3-4KJV
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok guys, stop the bickering

Luke 17:3-4KJV
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

I don't want to bicker, but when I see someone denying something so obvious, such as the scriptures which show that dead unbelievers will be resurrected, then I tend to get a bit testy about it because I believe the person should know better. But, with that said, I'm going to honor your request and stop the bickering.

 

[Davy]

Since we are both Amils you and I actually agree on a lot, also, but for some reason you act like I'm your mortal enemy just because we disagree on this particular topic. Go figure.

Since you claim to be Amil, then you should know why he disagrees. And I am NOT Amil, yet I know why.

Man's false Amillennialist theory DEPENDS upon the idea of ALL wicked destroyed in the "lake of fire" on the DAY of Jesus' future 2nd coming.

So if one believes in a resurrection of the "unjust" like Apostle Paul said, then it means that part of the Amil belief is not true. It simply destroys the Amil position, is what it does.

But no problem, because the Revelation 22:14-15 verses shows the tree of life existing on earth inside the gates of the holy city while the wicked are dwelling outside... the gates of the holy city. Zechariah 14 in the latter part also reveals the unsaved and wicked still existing after Christ's future return, as does Revelation 3:9.

 

[GEN2REV]

Since you claim to be Amil, then you should know why he disagrees. And I am NOT Amil, yet I know why.

Man's false Amillennialist theory DEPENDS upon the idea of ALL wicked destroyed in the "lake of fire" on the DAY of Jesus' future 2nd coming.

So if one believes in a resurrection of the "unjust" like Apostle Paul said, then it means that part of the Amil belief is not true. It simply destroys the Amil position, is what it does.

Thank you, Davy. It also disproves OSAS if all that are raised are Christians and some are judged down as Matthew 7:21-23 reveals.

And remind me which verse you're referring to from Paul, please. I can only think of the John & Matthew (Jesus') verses referring to the unjust being raised.

But no problem, because the Revelation 22:14-15 verses shows the tree of life existing on earth inside the gates of the holy city while the wicked are dwelling outside... the gates of the holy city. Zechariah 14 in the latter part also reveals the unsaved and wicked still existing after Christ's future return, as does Revelation 3:9.

Actually those verses are referring to Jesus as the Tree of Life existing now, in and through all Spirit-indwelled believers, during His kingdom that runs 'til His physical return. The kingdom is now and all those who are described as wicked are outside of that kingdom. None of those verses declare that they take place after Christ's return and even if they might appear to imply that, well, .... they're in Revelation.

So, ..... yeah. No.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since you claim to be Amil, then you should know why he disagrees. And I am NOT Amil, yet I know why.

Man's false Amillennialist theory DEPENDS upon the idea of ALL wicked destroyed in the "lake of fire" on the DAY of Jesus' future 2nd coming.

So if one believes in a resurrection of the "unjust" like Apostle Paul said, then it means that part of the Amil belief is not true. It simply destroys the Amil position, is what it does.

What in the world are you talking about? That is not true whatsoever. How are you coming to that conclusion? Anyone can make claims like you're doing, but you need to back it up. And you're not doing that at all.

But no problem, because the Revelation 22:14-15 verses shows the tree of life existing on earth inside the gates of the holy city while the wicked are dwelling outside... the gates of the holy city. Zechariah 14 in the latter part also reveals the unsaved and wicked still existing after Christ's future return, as does Revelation 3:9.

No, the wicked will be in the lake of fire. You are clueless.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thank you, Davy. It also disproves OSAS if all that are raised are Christians and some are judged down as Matthew 7:21-23 reveals.

Why are you thanking him after he just ranted about Amillennialism? You are an Amillennialist, right?

 

[GEN2REV]

Why are you thanking him after he just ranted about Amillennialism? You are an Amillennialist, right?

Yes. I was being sarcastic.

I think he understood. Maybe not.

Did you notice I wasn't agreeing with him in the rest of the post?

To be perfectly honest, there are now 4 people involved in this same micro conversation we are having within the macro discussion of the thread and, I admit, I'm getting a little lost. My original post was to Truth7T7 which you replied to, which Davy replied to, which I replied to, which you replied to, etc., etc.

Believing that unbelievers will be resurrected along with all the saints supports Pre-Mil theory, but Truth7T7 is Amil. So my original point to him was that his being Amil, while adamantly defending a pivotal facet of Pre-Mil, doesn't really add up.

That's all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes. I was being sarcastic.

I think he understood. Maybe not.

Okay, I didn't catch that.

Did you notice I wasn't agreeing with him in the rest of the post?

Yes, I did, which is why I was confused because I didn't catch that you were being sarcastic before that. Anyway...

To be perfectly honest, there are now 4 people involved in this same micro conversation we are having within the macro discussion of the thread and, I admit, I'm getting a little lost. My original post was to Truth7T7 which you replied to, which Davy replied to, which I replied to, which you replied to, etc., etc.

Believing that unbelievers will be resurrected along with all the saints supports Pre-Mil theory, but Truth7T7 is Amil. So my original point to him was that his being Amil, while adamantly defending a pivotal facet of Pre-Mil, doesn't really add up.

That's all.

I disagree that it supports Premil, but I also don't have any interest in continuing that particular discussion, so I'm not going to say any more about that.

 

[GEN2REV]

Okay, I didn't catch that.

Yes, I did, which is why I was confused because I didn't catch that you were being sarcastic before that. Anyway...

I disagree that it supports Premil, but I also don't have any interest in continuing that particular discussion, so I'm not going to say any more about that.

See, I am confused.

Let me restate that.

Believing that unbelievers will be resurrected at all supports Pre-Mil because it allows for Matthew 7:21-23 to possibly be unbelievers, instead of being saints - as I believe it is.

It also allows for there to be a 2nd resurrection at a later time than Jesus' return for all the unbelievers.

Amil does not support the idea of any Millennium after Jesus' return, nor all the goodies that come with it like the 2nd resurrection, etc.

I believe that unbelievers are not resurrected at all, for many Biblical reasons, which would mean that Matthew 7:21-23 is talking about saints being judged down by Jesus, as well as John 5:28 referring only to saints being raised - some to life and some to shame, but not all mankind being resurrected there. This also would disprove OSAS because these would be Christians losing their salvation.

I hope that makes some sense. I'm having a hard time keeping track of all the various aspects of all of this tonight for some reason.

If interested, go to Only Believers are Resurrected? and we'll discuss more there.

 

[Davy]

What in the world are you talking about? That is not true whatsoever. How are you coming to that conclusion? Anyone can make claims like you're doing, but you need to back it up. And you're not doing that at all.

No, the wicked will be in the lake of fire. You are clueless.

Amillennialism is NOT true, I don't agree with it.

What IS... written is what I said, that Christ's "thousand years" reign with His elect is FIRST... prior... to the "lake of fire" destruction. And that is HOW Revelation 20 is written!

So quit playing stupid and look at the Revelation 22:14-15 verses I pointed to of how the wicked are STILL outside the gates of the holy city when the tree of life is manifested. Know what Lord Jesus called that place OUTSIDE the gates of the holy city?

The "outer darkness"! And He said there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth!

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

The Old Testament Book of Ezekiel goes into even more detail about that future Millennium time of Christ's reign over the unsaved with His elect that begins right after His future return.

 

[n2thelight]

No, not really, I guess.

The Bible makes it plain. Believers, alive or dead, will be raised and changed.

Unbelievers will not rise or change.

Scripture says ALL shall be changed ,the difference that you don't understand is although changed some ie those not in Christ at His return will have mortal souls ,unlike those who will have no fear of the 2nd death

 

[n2thelight]

It would help if you understand the purpose of the millennium .

 

[GEN2REV]

Know what Lord Jesus called that place OUTSIDE the gates of the holy city? The "outer darkness"! And He said there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth!

You are mixing doctrines together.

The Bible doesn't teach those two as being the same thing.

 

[GEN2REV]

Scripture says ALL shall be changed ,the difference that you don't understand is although changed some ie those not in Christ at His return will have mortal souls ,unlike those who will have no fear of the 2nd death

The Bible makes clear that the average human does not have eternal/resurrection life within them unless they receive certain things from God (Jesus). That is the default setting for all mankind when they are born.

Unless they are given faith Ephesians 2:8, drawn/called to Christ by the Father John 6:44, given eternal/resurrection life by Jesus John 6:63, John 6:68, they will not be raised/resurrected, they will not be changed and they also will not burn in hell merely for not knowing God. Upon their physical death, they will be no more.

They are the chaff among the Wheat, they are not all Tares.

 

[GEN2REV]

It would help if you understand the purpose of the millennium .

If that was directed at me, I understand all the various 'excuses' for the Millennium theory.

None of which are Biblical.