Conflating Jesus' Second Coming with the Scorched Earth is not possible

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,108
1,355
113
62
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's certainly possible for someone to try and make the Lord's return the same as at the scorching of the earth, since anyone can think, read, and promote whatever they want about the Bible. But it's just not possible to do so with Scriptural integrity.

Any objective reader of the Bible cannot possibly do so, since it would become a tangled confusion of plainly contradicting details. That is why people must resort to spiritualizing, symbolizing, or making parables of any prophetic Scripture necessary to do so.

The objective reading is simple:

1. Them of the nations, not all, will gather at Armageddon to fight with the Lord, vs All of God and Magog will be gathered around the beloved city of the saints, and not at Armageddon.

2. The Lord Himself and His armies of saints will be coming down from the air, to fight at Armageddon, vs Fire from God out of heaven will destroy Gog and Magog.

3. The fowls of the air will be gathered from all the earth to eat of the flesh of the dead armies, vs The fire from heaven will scorch Gog and Magog alive.

4. The Jerusalem under the rule of the beast, is spiritually as Sodom and Egypt at the Lord's return, vs the beloved city of the saints is spiritually that of Christ and God.

5. Abraham will be given the land promised to him by God, that he personally walked on. Job also will see His redeemer standing on the earth as prophesied, vs The scorched earth will have no land for Jesus Himself nor anyone to stand upon. much less to give to anyone as a blessing.

6. There will be them of the nations, remaining after the slaying of armies, that the Lord will rule with His saints, vs. The scorched earth will have no one to rule at all.

7. The judgment of the natural sheep and goats on earth, vs the great white throne judgment of all the rest of the resurrected dead, after the earth is scorched and fled away.

The problem with many Christians, is we sometimes want to read Scripture from our own personal faith, rather than read the Bible objectively, and at least understand what the Author is saying first, and then take Him at His word.

No objective reader can possibly mistake the Bible speaking of the return of the Lord to this earth, and this earth being scorched with fire out of heaven.

Doing away with objective reading of the Bible, is also the result of spiritualizing and symbolizing away the objective reading of the words written therein.

Once we begin to symbolize, or make parables of the plain words of Scripture, in order to conform the words to our own faith, then the Bible does indeed become what many scholarly unbelievers have said of it: It is just another interesting and wise book of man about common myths, legends, parables, fables, etc... It becomes simply another book of many wise sayings, principles, and antidotes, much like the Gilgamesh Saga, Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, Aesop's fables, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Plato's Republic, etc...
 
Last edited:

Ronald D Milam

Active Member
Jan 12, 2022
632
90
28
58
Clanton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's certainly possible for someone to try and make the Lord's return the same as at the scorching of the earth, since anyone can think, read, and promote whatever they want about the Bible. But it's just not possible to do so with Scriptural integrity.

Any objective reader of the Bible cannot possibly do so, since it would become a tangled confusion of plainly contradicting details. That is why people must resort to spiritualizing, symbolizing, or making parables of any prophetic Scripture necessary to do so.

The objective reading is simple:

1. Them of the nations, not all, will gather at Armageddon to fight with the Lord, vs All of God and Magog will be gathered around the beloved city of the saints, and not at Armageddon.

2. The Lord Himself and His armies of saints will be coming down from the air, to fight at Armageddon, vs Fire from God out of heaven will destroy Gog and Magog.

3. The fowls of the air will be gathered from all the earth to eat of the flesh of the dead armies, vs The fire from heaven will scorch Gog and Magog alive.

4. The Jerusalem under the rule of the beast, is spiritually as Sodom and Egypt at the Lord's return, vs the beloved city of the saints is spiritually that of Christ and God.
The problem with most wannabe Prophecy guys is they do not understand prophecy well enough to teach it because its not their calling, but when a guy like me called to a ministry of Prophetic Understanding tries to teach them via actual scriptures, like you tried to (you missed the mark a wee bit, but overall, nice and tidy) via scriptures, they shake their head and cover their ears, and revert back to men's traditions they were taught long ago, which leaves God out of the loop, His Holy Spirit can't penetrate those "Men's Traditions". I know because for some odd years I had a tinge of that until my Prayer, after my heart attack 7 or so yeas ago.

I was like "Lord, we are in the end times, when you promised to pour out your spirit and promised Daniel knowledge would increase, and these deep spiritual things would be revealed, so why is it we still have 100s of understandings of who Babylon is, who the 144,000 are, where the Beast comes from, who the False Prophet is?" etc. etc. and I got this: "Ron, you guys already know it all" and I knew instantaneously what that meant, God was like, I can't not teach those who already have the answers, then it hit me, that was the Pharisees problems, that is why Jesus chose "BABES" to be his disciples, so I trusted nothing I had learned IN FULL, on Prophecy, and questioned everything, especially things that seemed contradictory, and by doing this, God has shown me all things end times. I simply ASKED, God, what does this really mean Lord? and like a dog on a bone I refused to stop seeking an answer until I got it, kind of like Jacob wrestling with God. So, in essence they are putting forth mostly, things they learned from other men, which came forth before God started revealing his deep truths in the last few years, like maybe 5-10 years.

Firstly, many do not understand the Day of the Lord is not ONE DAY, and a lot think it is just 3.5 years or 1260 days, I was in the 1260 day camp for a while, but not overtly so. Then I understood the DOTL is a day he starts taking back the earths title deed from Satan, who confused mankind (Babel) into giving him their Dominion over earth, which God had given unto Adam. Thus Gods wrath only starts this process, then Jesus' Second Coming assumes AUTHORITY, but the DOTL is still not over, it will last for another 1000 years as Jesus JUXTAPOSES his rule of Peace, Love, Joy and Hope against Satan's 6000 years of Hate, Greed, Murder, Lies, Lust and Hopelessness. That is why Satan is placed in the bottomless pit, he must be given a trial of sorts, in essence, all the Wicked are raised and judged after the 1000 year reign, only the False Prophet and Satan are tried just after Jesus' Second Coming and cast into hell.

However, the Gog & Magog War in Rev. 20 is not the same Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38 and 39. That comes just before or just after the Pre Trib Rapture and it readies the Anti-Christs path to power, remember, God places the hook in Gog's (probably Putin) mouth. Russia, Iran and Turkey (with a few token African nations) comes after Israel, driving them into the European Anti-Christs arms, not as their "Messiah" that is absurd, but as their PROTECTOR, like the USA is to Hawaii as they see it, Israel will join the E.U. this is "THE COVENANT" (Agreement) they sign. Most do not know, Israel and THE MANY (Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Libya, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria) currently have 7 year signed agreements with the E.U. under what is called the European Neighborhood Policy and the E.U.s goal is to seek closer alignment with these nations whilst lining up some for potential "Member States" I joke not, look it up, the "European Neighborhood Policy" can be seen on Wikipedia, when you see the Map of the E.U. and the "Potential Member States" then look to Dan. 11:40-43 where the Anti-Christ King of the North conquers the King of the South this matches completely, and that map looks just like the Roman Empire circa 117 A.D. As we see, once the Anti-Christ conquers these MANY COUNTRIES as Dan. 11:40-41 calls them, the Old Roman Empire will have a son !! Look at how each looks on a map !!

EU_European_Neighbourhood_Policy_states.svg (4).png

Roman Empire circa 117

Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD (6).png
So, THE MANY, as seen in Dan. 8:25 (and by peace [he] shall destroy many: ) and in Dan. 9:27 (And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: ) and in Dan. 11, lets just put the whole passage below in order to show how it all goes down step by step:

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north (The Anti-Christ) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries(not just Israel), and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: (Not just Israel) but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.( Edom, Moab and Ammon just so happen to be where the Petra/Bozrah area is located at, so he can not conquer them at all.)

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.(Basically as per those names back then, that was all of North Africa).

This is how Prophecy must be deciphered, so on your overall point I agree, Gog and Magog however in Rev. 20 is not THE Gog and Magog war, that prepares the way of the Anti-Christ, John used Old Testament verbiage for much of his Revelation book, look and Daniel chapter 5, the Mene, Mene, Tekel chapter, now look at Rev. 17, John used Daniel 5 to tell how ALL FALSE RELIGION gets judged, and it is just a repeat of Daniel 5, where they played fast and loose with God's holy plates and cups. Thus they were judged that very day. That is how John uses the Gog and Magog story from Ezekiel 38 and 39, but the odd thing is it still has not happened the first time yet.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: robert derrick

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,108
1,355
113
62
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Paul is showing how the Lord Jesus has all power, but is not yet ruling over all on earth, yet.

The saints see Him as He is in heavenly places now on the throne of God, but all men will also see Him as he is on earth and the throne of David.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ronald D Milam

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
2,477
926
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's certainly possible for someone to try and make the Lord's return the same as at the scorching of the earth, since anyone can think, read, and promote whatever they want about the Bible. But it's just not possible to do so with Scriptural integrity.
Yes, it is.
Any objective reader of the Bible cannot possibly do so, since it would become a tangled confusion of plainly contradicting details. That is why people must resort to spiritualizing, symbolizing, or making parables of any prophetic Scripture necessary to do so.
A typical false accusation made by a Premil. The fact is that we all see some of the text as being spiritual and some as symbolic and some as literal. We just don't always agree on which is which.
The objective reading is simple:
And by "objective" you mean "literal". That's not objective. Objective is to discern what type of text any given verse or passage is using. It's not objective to assume that everything is literal, especially in a book like Revelation
1. Them of the nations, not all, will gather at Armageddon to fight with the Lord, vs All of God and Magog will be gathered around the beloved city of the saints, and not at Armageddon.

2. The Lord Himself and His armies of saints will be coming down from the air, to fight at Armageddon, vs Fire from God out of heaven will destroy Gog and Magog.
You're not recognizing the symbolism here. It's not referring to the literal physical Armageddon or Gog and Magog any more than it's referring to the great city as the literal Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:7 or to the literal physical Babylon when it refers to mystery Babylon.

Notice what this says:

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Notice that this first talks about "kings, generals, the mighty, etc." being destroyed, but then expands out to "all people, free and slave, great and small". No one will be excluded from being destroyed when it comes to Christ's enemies at His return. Just as is taught in other scripture like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Notice what Gog and Magog represents:

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

In this passage Gog and Magog symbolically represent "the nations in the four corners of the earth" who oppose God's people around the world. Armageddon should not be understood any more literally than Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:8.
3. The fowls of the air will be gathered from all the earth to eat of the flesh of the dead armies, vs The fire from heaven will scorch Gog and Magog alive.
Revelation 19:11-21 is a symbolic representation of the destruction that will occur when Christ returns. You don't believe that Christ will be literally slaying people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth, do you?
4. The Jerusalem under the rule of the beast, is spiritually as Sodom and Egypt at the Lord's return, vs the beloved city of the saints is spiritually that of Christ and God.
Not sure what your point is here. The great city of Revelation 11:7 is clearly not the same as the beloved city of Revelation 20:9, but that doesn't prove anything one way or another regarding the timing of Christ's return.
5. Abraham will be given the land promised to him by God, that he personally walked on. Job also will see His redeemer standing on the earth as prophesied, vs The scorched earth will have no land for Jesus Himself nor anyone to stand upon. much less to give to anyone as a blessing.
Abraham would be disappointed by that, since he is instead looking forward to inheriting a heavenly country and a heavenly city whose builder is God.

Hebrews 11:
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
6. There will be them of the nations, remaining after the slaying of armies, that the Lord will rule with His saints, vs. The scorched earth will have no one to rule at all.
And who might they be exactly?

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Do these people that you think the Lord will rule over in the future know God and obey the gospel? If not, then you should believe Paul when he says that they will be destroyed when Christ returns, not ruled over.
7. The judgment of the natural sheep and goats on earth, vs the great white throne judgment of all the rest of the resurrected dead, after the earth is scorched and fled away.
What does this mean? Are the following passage that both speak about inheriting the kingdom of God not referring to the same event? If you don't think so, then please explain why not.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Are the following verses not referring to the same event? If you don't think so, then please explain why not.

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
2,477
926
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No objective reader can possibly mistake the Bible speaking of the return of the Lord to this earth, and this earth being scorched with fire out of heaven.
That is a lie. I am objective and that is exactly the conclusion I come to. You are equating being objective with assuming everything is meant to be taken literally, but that is not a case of being objective at all.

Doing away with objective reading of the Bible, is also the result of spiritualizing and symbolizing away the objective reading of the words written therein.
This is nonsense. Do you deny that there is symbolism in the book of Revelation? There clearly is and you know that. So, does interpreting those verses in a spiritual or symbolic way mean you are spiritualizing and symbolizing them away? You act as if spiritual and symbolic text is a bad thing.

Once we begin to symbolize, or make parables of the plain words of Scripture, in order to conform the words to our own faith, then the Bible does indeed become what many scholarly unbelievers have said of it: It is just another interesting and wise book of man about common myths, legends, parables, fables, etc... It becomes simply another book of many wise sayings, principles, and antidotes, much like the Gilgamesh Saga, Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, Aesop's fables, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Plato's Republic, etc...
Do you take the following passage literally?

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Jesus talked about a coming time or event when all of the dead will be raised, but you believe in at least two completely separate future times when the dead will be raised. Why do you not take Jesus as literally in this passage as you do in other passages?

Do you take the following passage literally?

2 Thess 1: and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

This indicates that those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel will be destroyed and punished when Christ returns. The Premil doctrine (post-trib, at least) says that some who don't know God and don't obey the gospel will survive the return of Christ. So, who are the ones taking this literally, Amils or Premils?
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
2,936
1,250
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Doing away with objective reading of the Bible, is also the result of spiritualizing and symbolizing away the objective reading of the words written therein.

Once we begin to symbolize, or make parables of the plain words of Scripture, in order to conform the words to our own faith, then the Bible does indeed become what many scholarly unbelievers have said of it: It is just another interesting and wise book of man about common myths, legends, parables, fables, etc... It becomes simply another book of many wise sayings, principles, and antidotes, much like the Gilgamesh Saga, Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, Aesop's fables, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Plato's Republic, etc...

It is Premils that are forced to spiritualize the literal detail of Scripture. Look and see!

Jesus says of His coming in Matthew 24:35-39: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Jesus said in Mark 13:24-26, 31-32: “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and gloryHeaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wiped. This contrast between “the days” and “day” is common in Scripture and is presented in order that we can distinguish between “the lasts days” of time and “the last day” of time, that ushers in the end. The actual day that Noah entered into the ark "the flood came, and took them all away." It was therefore an individual day that God closed the door of the Ark and by doing so damned all those that were left behind. The same will occur when our ark – Christ – arrives at the second coming.

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-27, 33-36: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great gloryHeaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Can you see what happens to heaven and earth when Jesus comes? Can you see what happens to believers when Jesus comes? Can you see what happened to the wicked when Jesus comes?

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. Most commentators relate this to the physical universe – the stars, planets, and galaxies. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’. This is speaking about the elements of the material creation. Some Bible students identify this with the four classic elements of earth, wind, fire and water. Others, like John MacArthur, relate this to atoms, neutrons, protons and electrons. 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. This is our current habitable globe. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. That is describing everything upon the earth.

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 tells us: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
2,477
926
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Paul is showing how the Lord Jesus has all power, but is not yet ruling over all on earth, yet.

The saints see Him as He is in heavenly places now on the throne of God, but all men will also see Him as he is on earth and the throne of David.
Where are you getting from that scripture that "the Lord Jesus has all power, but is not yet ruling over all on earth yet?". I don't see that concept being taught there at all.

Is there anything existing right now that is not under Him? No. It very clearly says in past tense: "thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet" and "he left nothing that is not put under him". So, at any given time, all current existing things are under Him.

When it says not yet all things are put under Him, that just means there are future things (including people) that are not yet under Him because they don't yet exist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb and WPM

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,108
1,355
113
62
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The main problem with over-spiritualizing or symbolizing Scripture, is that most of the time it is not necessary, since both are true.

Some do away with the dry ground of the Red Sea, while still trying to teach it's spiritual significance of deliverance.

The exact same thing is done by those who only want to teach the spiritual truth of the Lord's reigning day on our lives, which can be for weeks, months, years, and decades.

But want to do away with His reigning day over the whole earth, which will be for a thousand years, to the day.

And it will be as but one day to the Lord and His resurrected saints.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,108
1,355
113
62
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A typical false accusation made by a Premil. The fact is that we all see some of the text as being spiritual and some as symbolic and some as literal. We just don't always agree on which is which.
The disingenuousness is self-evident.

You don't agree any Scripture having to do with His millennial reign on earth is literal, much less some of it.

And so whole Scriptures of God are made nothing but symbolic myth.

That is what I refuse to ever agree with. Both the practice and the result.
 
Last edited:

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,108
1,355
113
62
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is a lie. I am objective and that is exactly the conclusion I come to.
Objectivity is reading everything exactly as written, and not putting our own thoughts into it, which only makes something into what it is not: our own mind and teaching.

Subjectiveness is having a personal conclusion about something, and then inserting it into every reading, so that the reading must agree with our own conclusion.

This is why endless debates begin over Scriptures, whether it's about the Godhead or Millennialism.

Every single Scripture about the Godhead will be interpreted different, according to the personal belief of whether Jesus is God or not God.

So it is with Millennialism. Every Scripture will be disagreed over, based upon the personal belief of whether the Lord's reign is spiritually only, or also physical on earth.

The only question is, who reads the Scripture objectively, in order to have the true interpretation of Scripture. As well as remaining objective, so that correction can be given and received.


You are equating being objective with assuming everything is meant to be taken literally, but that is not a case of being objective at all.
This is an example of subjective judgement: judging others according to how we want them to be known, in order to remove any credibility from them.

But why not do so with men's words? Since the same people do the same with Scripture, when they judge it to be symbol only, and take away the literal truth of it.

I take what is plainly literal as literal, and what is plainly symbol as symbolic, and so am able to apply the Scripture both spiritually and physically.

With Jesus' resurrection, there is both His spiritual rule over His own people on earth today, and His rod of iron rule with His people over the nations tomorrow, are true.

My personal day with the Lord has been for decades, and it is still just as fresh, alive, and good as day one. Even better.

The church's day with the Lord to rule over the remaining sheep of the earth, will be after His resurrection of the saints into the air with Him, beginning with the slaughter at Armageddon, and the executions of the goats on earth.


This is nonsense. Do you deny that there is symbolism in the book of Revelation?

This is so blindly subjective and personal, that you can't even allow yourself to read what other people say, without making silly conclusions.

The error is making literal Scripture, that someone doesn't want to take literally, into symbol only.

Symbology is not the problem, but subjectively trying to twist Scripture to fit our own conclusion, is. And one way is to symbolize what is not symbol only.

The practice no more has anything to do with reading symbolism and teaching spiritual meaning, but becomes only our own imagination taught for doctrine of God.

It's the exact same error as those that rejected Jesus' words, in order to keep their own traditions.

Do you take the following passage literally?

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Of course. You don't believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead?
Jesus talked about a coming time or event when all of the dead will be raised, but you believe in at least two completely separate future times when the dead will be raised. Why do you not take Jesus as literally in this passage as you do in other passages?
Of course. You don't believe in the great white throne Judgement of all the rest of the dead?

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


There is a blessed first resurrection of the dead in Christ Jesus, and a last resurrection of the rest of the dead unto judgment.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.



Do you take the following passage literally?

2 Thess 1: and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

This indicates that those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel will be destroyed and punished when Christ returns. The Premil doctrine (post-trib, at least) says that some who don't know God and don't obey the gospel will survive the return of Christ. So, who are the ones taking this literally, Amils or Premils?
And now we have Scripture taken out of context, in order to conform it to one's own mind.

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you.

Only them that bring purposed trouble to the saints, will be destroyed outright at His coming again, which obviously includes those of the nations gathered to make war with the Lamb and His saints.

This Pharisaical spiteful judgment against all unbelievers is false.

Not all unbelievers bring trouble to the saints of God, and many in Scripture have been honored by God for doing so.

After the slaughter of the trouble-making armies by the brightness of His coming, He then as lightening descends upon the Mount at Jerusalem.

He will then execute those goats, who are simply doing no good at all on the earth.

And so the spiritual judgement and parable of the fig tree, is accomplished by Him personally on earth. Them who know to do good and do it not, are cut off from the Lord, since they only take up space, that could be used by better neighbors than themselves:

Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

And so, we see how righty dividing the word of truth, results in true doctrine of Christ, that can be applied to our lives. This includes of course, acknowledging symbol that is symbol, and teaching the spiritual understanding of it.

By symbolizing away anything we don't want to believe, we make ourselves bereft of any ability to teach doctrine of Christ unto edification and practical benefit to anyone on earth, much less the body of Christ.

And when others disagree with such false subjectiveness, all the false teacher ends up doing is drawing silly little conclusions out of what no one has said, so that even a little child can easily see through it.
 
Last edited:

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,108
1,355
113
62
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sorry I took so long to respond to your good post. I got sidetracked, and then forgot what thread you posted on.

The problem with most wannabe Prophecy guys is they do not understand prophecy well enough to teach it because its not their calling, but when a guy like me called to a ministry of Prophetic Understanding tries to teach them via actual scriptures, like you tried to (you missed the mark a wee bit, but overall, nice and tidy) via scriptures, they shake their head and cover their ears, and revert back to men's traditions they were taught long ago, which leaves God out of the loop, His Holy Spirit can't penetrate those "Men's Traditions". I know because for some odd years I had a tinge of that until my Prayer, after my heart attack 7 or so yeas ago.
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.


Pride in what we think we know is the hardest egg to crack, especially when combined with so-called 'inspiration' about Scripture, and worst of all about prophecy of Scripture, because what Christian doesn't want power to interpret all Scripture rightly?


"Ron, you guys already know it all" and I knew instantaneously what that meant, God was like, I can't not teach those who already have the answers, then it hit me, that was the Pharisees problems, that is why Jesus chose "BABES" to be his disciples,so I trusted nothing I had learned IN FULL, on Prophecy, and questioned everything, especially things that seemed contradictory, and by doing this, God has shown me all things end times

Exactly. The greatest, and sometimes hardest lesson to learn for Christians, especially us who have been around awhile, is to never cease coming to Scripture and read the Bible, with any kind of attitude, that wwe are more than just little children still coming to the Master.

It's called objectively without any preconceived notions nor agendas.

Firstly, many do not understand the Day of the Lord is not ONE DAY,
I see Six One Days of the Lord prophesied in Scripture:

The first prophesied day of the Lord was in the beginning, when God commanded there to be light.

The second prophesied day of the Lord was with Noah, in the day they entered the ark, and He flooded the whole earth, in that selfsame day.

The third prophesied day of the Lord, was that day on earth, when Jesus Christ came in the flesh. That day ended at the cross.

The fourth prophesied day of the Lord, is that day on earth, when God commands the Light shine in our hearts, and Jesus Christ is come in our flesh, and enter into His rest. That day with the Lord never ends, and after however many days on earth, it is still as good and fresh and alive as day one.

The fifth prophesied day of the Lord, is that day on earth, when Jesus Christ comes to destroy those making war with Him, and to establish His rule over the earth. That day will be a thousand years.

The sixth prophesied day of the Lord, is that day on earth, where the last war will be made, and the earth itself will be burned by fire from The Lord in heaven.

And the seventh prophesied day of the Lord, is that day on the new earth, where the gates of New Jerusalem will not be shut at all.

Only two of those days of the Lord will never end: the day of His coming into our hearts, and the day of the everlasting rest of God and the people of God in a new heaven and earth.


Then I understood the DOTL is a day he starts taking back the earths title deed from Satan, who confused mankind (Babel) into giving him their Dominion over earth, which God had given unto Adam.
That would begin when Jesus Christ is come in the flesh as man, and continues now in believers, that are now of His flesh and of His bones.


Thus Gods wrath only starts this process, then Jesus' Second Coming assumes AUTHORITY, but the DOTL is still not over, it will last for another 1000 years as Jesus JUXTAPOSES his rule of Peace, Love, Joy and Hope against Satan's 6000 years of Hate, Greed, Murder, Lies, Lust and Hopelessness.
True.

One great day after 6 destructive ones.

If He returns this millennium.


That is why Satan is placed in the bottomless pit, he must be given a trial of sorts, in essence, all the Wicked are raised and judged after the 1000 year reign, only the False Prophet and Satan are tried just after Jesus' Second Coming and cast into hell.
He is made to be shut up, so that none on earth can blame him for transgressing the rule of Christ on earth.

With the final gathering for war, it proves men can live outwardly peaceful and lawful, yet still be spiritually unclean by their own making.

The devil made himself evil in his own heart, and so does man make his own temptation. The devil simply feeds the fire of lust we already allow in our hearts as he did.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
2,936
1,250
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The main problem with over-spiritualizing or symbolizing Scripture, is that most of the time it is not necessary, since both are true.

Some do away with the dry ground of the Red Sea, while still trying to teach it's spiritual significance of deliverance.

The exact same thing is done by those who only want to teach the spiritual truth of the Lord's reigning day on our lives, which can be for weeks, months, years, and decades.

But want to do away with His reigning day over the whole earth, which will be for a thousand years, to the day.

And it will be as but one day to the Lord and His resurrected saints.

Your problem is refusing to take literal explicit Scriptures literally. That produces so much extra-biblical error. You have to explain away the universal conflagration - taught clearly throughout the Word. It causes you to reject Jesus reigning now over creation and His new creation. That is ridiculous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
4,127
782
113
81
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
No objective reader can possibly mistake the Bible speaking of the return of the Lord to this earth, and this earth being scorched with fire out of heaven.
But the three proof Prophesies about the glorious Return of Jesus, do NOT say He will 'scorch the earth' at that time. Zechariah 14:4, Matthew 24:29-30. Revelation 19:11-21.
Why would He destroy the earth that He has just Returned to rule over? No: the Judgment/punishment by fire from the sun, will happen at the Sixth Seal. several years before the Return.
 
  • Like
Reactions: robert derrick

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,108
1,355
113
62
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
However, the Gog & Magog War in Rev. 20 is not the same Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38 and 39. That comes just before or just after the Pre Trib Rapture and it readies the Anti-Christs path to power, remember, God places the hook in Gog's (probably Putin) mouth.
I agree completely, though not necessarily in the use of names. You clear up nagging issues about Ezsek 38, by saying there must be at least 2 Gogs and Magog being spoken of and intermixed in prophecy. Three if we count the first ones being the lands and powers of that time.

Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

There must be another Gog coming from the north only, than that of Gog and Magog from all quarters of the earth.

After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

And as you say, they will bring a cessation of war, as in time of peace and prosperity, to all the land of Israel. As in Rev 6:2, where the great conquering hero comes in on a whited horse of caesarian triumphal entry, not to destroy and plunder.

For a time the land and city will not be wasted in the continual political hostility and war of modern history.

This fits nicely. Thanks much.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,108
1,355
113
62
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Russia, Iran and Turkey (with a few token African nations) comes after Israel, driving them into the European Anti-Christs arms, not as their "Messiah" that is absurd, but as their PROTECTOR,
I agree again. Jerusalem under the Jews' religion, that rejected Jesus as the Christ, may desire friendliness with Christians, even seriously for some, but it is now, like all cities of false religion, spiritually Sodom and Egypt, and so is still that same city where our Lord was crucified.

Only when the Lord Himself returns and sits upon the throne of David, will this Jerusalem be spiritually cleansed with His temple therein.

The last beast will come and be recieved with vain promises only. As usual.

Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

They are questioning the purpose of their coming to the land of Israel. It is not scripture saying they are coming to make war and despoil the land of Israel.

And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords.


This is not coming to the land of Israel, but to Armageddon, where the Lord will lead them from the air, to make war with Himself and His resurrected saints. It will be the same as the Lord leading them down into the dry ground of the Red Sea: He will destroy and turn them back without quarter.

The hooks in the jaws of them that hate the Lord and His people, not the unbelieving Jews, will literally be the Lord and His resurrected saints in the air.


The same strong delusion and reprobation and blind hatred, that led Pharaoh and his army into actually going down to dry ground, with the waves of the Red Sea standing all around them, will also lead the last beast and and his armies to Armageddon to fight with the retuning Lord and all His armies from above.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


And this is exactly the disservice of great symbolizers and spiritualists mishandling Scripture does:

Rather than glory in the beauty of God's works, that are always consistent and true both spiritually and physically, they make a mockery of such things he prophecies and does on earth, to be nothing by myth-making and symbol-gesturing.

The Lord makes war always the same, to allow the wicked to be led and ensnared in their own deceives according to the scripture, so that he destroys His enemies in one fell swoop, that all may marvel at how completely foolish it is to resist Him and fight against Him: from Lucifer and his angels, to giant fools before the flood, to Pharaoh at the Red Sea, to the beast and Gog-eyed armies at Armageddon, and finally to Gog and Magog at the belove city.

Even as His enemies grow in number and anger and delusion, so does His response in water, sword, and fire.

And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates.

To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.


This is Gog and Magog at the unwalled camp of the saints, which also shows how such defensive walls will not be needed during Christ's reign on earth.

This is when Gog and Magog come not to the unbelieving Jews in the land of Israel today, but to the saints of God on earth, to spoil and desolate them and their beloved city.

But since it is after the end of His reign, they will not be there, and they won't even know it:

Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

And they will be consumed with fire while laying hold of the treasures left behind, even as the rebellious children of Israel that were destroyed with plague, even while the flesh was in their mouths and between their teeth.

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,108
1,355
113
62
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But the three proof Prophesies about the glorious Return of Jesus, do NOT say He will 'scorch the earth' at that time. Zechariah 14:4, Matthew 24:29-30. Revelation 19:11-21.
Why would He destroy the earth that He has just Returned to rule over?
That of course is the whole point. There will be them of the earth, remaining after the slaughter at Aremgeddon, to rule over.

He also fulfills His own prophecies to come to the earth to judge all the earth, not just to destroy it .

No: the Judgment/punishment by fire from the sun, will happen at the Sixth Seal. several years before the Return.
Something new here.

Can you explain? Or did you in another place already do so? And I haven't seen it yet?

The fire upon Gog and Magog, is from God in heaven, not the sun of this world.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,108
1,355
113
62
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your problem is refusing to take literal explicit Scriptures literally. That produces so much extra-biblical error. You have to explain away the universal conflagration - taught clearly throughout the Word. It causes you to reject Jesus reigning now over creation and His new creation. That is ridiculous.
When you quote me and have something to say that matters, or some new point of your own to respond to, then I'd be glad to see it.

Once again you dishonestly read into other's teachings, that are not there, in order to discredit them.

I've never read anyone denying the scorching of the earth, and fleeing with the stars from the face of God on His throne.

Only your dishonesty tries to say anyone is.
 
Last edited:

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,102
15,197
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
It's certainly possible for someone to try and make the Lord's return the same as at the scorching of the earth, since anyone can think, read, and promote whatever they want about the Bible. But it's just not possible to do so with Scriptural integrity.
Really? What about the words of Christ Himself? Do you wish to disregard His words?
So yes, there will be a scorched earth just before the Second Coming of Christ and here is the proof (Matthew 24:29,30):

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What happens when the stars fall from heaven to earth? (Rev 8:10-12)

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
2,936
1,250
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And you have become tiresomely repetitive to no point.

Until you offer some new point to address, or actually quote what I've written and specifically address how it is written wrong, then we're at an end in this matter.

Read back at the countless Scriptures and attached arguments on these boards you have ducked around. That seems to be your pattern.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
4,127
782
113
81
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Something new here.

Can you explain? Or did you in another place already do so? And I haven't seen it yet?

The fire upon Gog and Magog, is from God in heaven, not the sun of this world.
Yes, what happens to Gog and his army will be directly from the Lord. A wipeout similar to the 185,000 army killed in Hezikiah's time.

But the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster will be by fire from the sun; sent by the Lord, Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1, a seemingly natural disaster. This is so the ungodly survivors can attribute it to a natural event and continue in their rejection of God.
A Coronal Mass Ejection of an unprecedented magnitude, can and will; literally fulfil all the graphically described Prophesies about this forthcoming terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath.