Conflating Jesus' Second Coming with the Scorched Earth is not possible

[ewq1938]

But the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster will be by fire from the sun; sent by the Lord, Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1, a seemingly natural disaster.

Doesn't even cite the 6th seal, which DOES NOT mention anything about the sun harming anyone. The sun actually goes dark which is the opposite as claimed. Talk about pure eisegesis!

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Keraz]

Doesn't even cite the 6th seal, which DOES NOT mention anything about the sun harming anyone. The sun actually goes dark which is the opposite as claimed.

Suffering from lack of knowledge!
A Coronal Mass Ejection, which the Lord will use; there is no other viable explanation, sends out a very bright flash, then as the ejected mass approaches the earth, it will obscure the sun, Also the initial flash of microwaves, Deuteronomy 32:22, will heat the earth underground and cause volcanic eruptions, smoke and ash clouds.

 

[ewq1938]

Suffering from lack of knowledge!

"Doesn't even cite the 6th seal, which DOES NOT mention anything about the sun harming anyone. The sun actually goes dark which is the opposite as claimed."

I laugh at your weak accusation.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Pride in what we think we know is the hardest egg to crack, especially when combined with so-called 'inspiration' about Scripture, and worst of all about prophecy of Scripture, because what Christian doesn't want power to interpret all Scripture rightly?

I agree to a degree, what I found however is most or many Christian never understand their callings fully. God called some to be hands, some feet, some legs etc. but everyone wants to be a hand etc. Some people are called specifically just to try and reach other people by a witness unto their own lives, some by preaching to the masses, some by interpreting prophecy etc. Everyone wants to be a prophecy expert, but that doesn't mean some are not called unto that field and given these understandings, Satan just loves to confuse by putting forth 1000s of false ideas, given to them by him, or other men. TBH, most people should listen to those called to teach, or give ear to the holy spirit, but sadly many just can't seem to hear that small still voice.

Exactly. The greatest, and sometimes hardest lesson to learn for Christians, especially us who have been around awhile, is to never cease coming to Scripture and read the Bible, with any kind of attitude, that wwe are more than just little children still coming to the Master.

It's called objectively without any preconceived notions nor agendas.

Yes indeed, we have to come daily saying, SHOW ME Lord, and He will. For instance, when the Lord told me that His "Church already knows it all", I started thinking about what He wanted us to do, and that was to simply ask Him, what does this mean Lord and to then WAIT UPON the Lord for an answer. I also understood that with God there is no contradictions, just bad interpretations by men, so I decided to never just accept contradictions any more and move on saying, well, it seems wrongheaded or contradictory to the facts, but everyone says this is what it means, so why sweat it, I will just accept it and move on. I quit doing that, and God started answering those seeming contradictions, Boom, BOOM, BOOM, very quickly. Some examples:

Dan. 7:11 says the Beasts body is destroyed, he's killed, then cast into hellfire, but Rev. 19:20 says the F.P. and Beast are cast alive straight into hell. Now I can't move on until I get an answer, that is my new M.O., and orders from the Lord. So, Dan. 7:11 is pretty definitive, could John have been mistaken or did it mean something different. Well, 1 Cor. 15 says we sleep/rest until the Rapture when the Dead are raised and Dan. 12:1-2 says the same thing about the Israeli dead. We were created in God's image meaning we are immortal beings, so in truth, we never die, we only rest until judgment, well, the F.P. and Beast will not be given that luxury sleep that even the wicked get, who all sleep until the Second Resurrection of Death, they were cast straight into hell, ALIVE meaning they never got to rest in the grave !! Nothing else fits, and God can not lie.

I finally got who the Rev. 7:9-17 Saints are by deduction also. I understood who they can not be first, even though like many others. I was deceived for years into thinking that they could only come out of the Great Tribulation, when the Scriptures kind of contradicted that, so I had ACCEPTED that contradiction as fact and just said, oh well, that is the way it goes. Here is why it never fit for for me, Jesus in the 5th Seal (the seals are Prophesies by Jesus of what will soon come, not real events) shows what the martyrs hearts will be thinking after they are killed, he gives them white robes and tells them they MUST WAIT for a little season, until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have, then and only then can they get their vengeance on those people who are ON EARTH, who killed them. 1.) They have to wait until the Anti-Christs 42 month reign is up before they get their vengeance and 2.) They get vengeance on people who are ALIVE ON EARTH, not on people long ago dead. So, that never fit the Rev. 7:9-17 Saints, the Martyrs at the 5th seal are told to WAIT, they are not resurrected before Jesus Second Coming !!

Now, Rev. 20:4 CONFIRMS this, we see that these people are only RAISED & JUDGED after the Second Coming, and only these Gentile Martyrs serve on earth with Jesus for his 1000 year reign, so these people CAN NOT be those that were seen resurrected in Rev. 7:9-17. So, then, how and why were they said to come out of Great Tribulation? Well, before I just accepted things, starting about 7 years ago I was like Lord, this is contradictory, and you are not a liar, so where did we miss the boat here Lord ? And, over a few week the Lord gave me the answer, in John 16:33 Jesus tells us in this world we will always have tribulation. The Romans killed 100's of 1000's of our brothers from the first century to the fourth century, Muslims have killed millions over 1400 years, Missionaries have died all over the world, our blood, according to Rev. 12:11 is what gave the Church the power to overcome Satan, we preached the Gospel even when death was threatened...11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

So, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT have come from the 70th weeks Greatest Ever Troubles, it is not possible according to the scriptures, but us (mankind who is fallible), pigeonholing God's vocabulary is very, very possible. We have MANDATED that these can only come from the 70th week Great Tribulation as we call it, even though Jesus called it the Greatest Ever Troubles, not the Great Troubles !! QUESTION? Can we have Great Troubles with out them being the Greatest Ever Troubles? YES INDEED !! Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are the Pre Trib Raptured Church who indeed came out of Great Tribulation, where millions of our brother have died for the Gospel's sake and for Jesus' name !! But those who die during the 70th week are different, they had to WAIT a little season (1260 days or 3.5 years) and we see when they are raised, in Rev. 20:4 AFTER Jesus returns with the Church in Rev. 19 !!

I can go on and on, but this is how God wants us to open up His deep truths, if we do not seek the full truth, we get Satan's half truths. But those who do not understand the timing of the Rapture can not accept this, it proves the Pre Trib Rapture in another way. Psstt, Rev. 12:17 is the Remnant Gentile Church, it CAN NOT be Jews, go look at it, it can only be the Remnant Gentile Church, again proving the Pre Trib Rapture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The disingenuousness is self-evident.

You don't agree any Scripture having to do with His millennial reign on earth is literal, much less some of it.

Congratulations on completely missing the point. I was talking about scripture in general, not just scripture about Christ's reign.

And so whole Scriptures of God are made nothing but symbolic myth.

Symbolic text does not equal myth. The truth is sometimes written in symbolism. Is that a problem for you?

That is what I refuse to ever agree with. Both the practice and the result.

Jesus reigns right now. That is a fact. Scripture teaches that very clearly. When He returns at the end of the age, He will deliver the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:22-24, Matt 13:40-43). So, the kingdom that will be manifested in its fullness when Christ returns is one that will be on the new earth and sin and death will be no more at that point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Objectivity is reading everything exactly as written, and not putting our own thoughts into it, which only makes something into what it is not: our own mind and teaching.

Yes, I agree. That's what I do. What it is not is assuming that any given text is either literal or figurative. Every verse and passage needs to be interpreted according to its own context without doctrinal bias being taken into it.
I do.

This is an example of subjective judgement: judging others according to how we want them to be known, in order to remove any credibility from them.

But why not do so with men's words? Since the same people do the same with Scripture, when they judge it to be symbol only, and take away the literal truth of it.

I take what is plainly literal as literal, and what is plainly symbol as symbolic, and so am able to apply the Scripture both spiritually and physically.

But, how do you determine what is literal and what is symbolic? I believe your decision on such things is heavily influenced by doctrinal bias.

With Jesus' resurrection, there is both His spiritual rule over His own people on earth today, and His rod of iron rule with His people over the nations tomorrow, are true.

Rod of iron rule? You mean the one where He destroys His enemies, as described in Psalm 2:7-9 and Revelation 19:15-18?

The church's day with the Lord to rule over the remaining sheep of the earth, will be after His resurrection of the saints into the air with Him, beginning with the slaughter at Armageddon, and the executions of the goats on earth.

Rule over the remaining sheep of the earth? Where do you get that from? Scripture teaches that all believers, dead and alive, will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord when He comes (1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17). All unbelievers, on the other hand, will be killed at that time (Matt 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12). So, I'd like to know where these mortal survivors of His return that you believe in could possibly come from.

This is so blindly subjective and personal, that you can't even allow yourself to read what other people say, without making silly conclusions.

The error is making literal Scripture, that someone doesn't want to take literally, into symbol only.

Symbology is not the problem, but subjectively trying to twist Scripture to fit our own conclusion, is. And one way is to symbolize what is not symbol only.

You are clearly the one twisting scripture here.

Of course. You don't believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead?

Once again, you missed the point. Do you do that on purpose or are you just ignorant? The point is that Jesus said that a singular time or event is coming when ALL of the dead will be raised. You, on the other hand, believe that two completely separate times/events are coming when the dead will be raised. Why do you not accept what Jesus said in John 5:28-29?

Of course. You don't believe in the great white throne Judgement of all the rest of the dead?

Why do you keep asking ridiculous questions? Of course I believe that will happen, but scripture makes it clear that BOTH believers and unbelievers will be resurrected and appear before the throne at the same time. You can see that in John 5:28-29. And Matthew 25:31-46 shows all people being judged at the same time rather than believers being judged and then unbelievers being judged 1,000+ years later as you believe.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is a blessed first resurrection of the dead in Christ Jesus, and a last resurrection of the rest of the dead unto judgment.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

How does this line up with what Jesus said in John 5:28-29? Do you care if your understanding of Revelation 20:4-6 lines up with the rest of scripture or not? Scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection itself was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) and we all spiritually have part in His resurrection. John said the souls he saw lived and reigned with Christ. He did not say that they were bodily resurrected first. He saw them reigning with Christ in heaven.

And now we have Scripture taken out of context, in order to conform it to one's own mind.

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you.

Only them that bring purposed trouble to the saints, will be destroyed outright at His coming again, which obviously includes those of the nations gathered to make war with the Lamb and His saints.

This Pharisaical spiteful judgment against all unbelievers is false.

Not all unbelievers bring trouble to the saints of God, and many in Scripture have been honored by God for doing so.

After the slaughter of the trouble-making armies by the brightness of His coming, He then as lightening descends upon the Mount at Jerusalem.

He will then execute those goats, who are simply doing no good at all on the earth.

And so the spiritual judgement and parable of the fig tree, is accomplished by Him personally on earth. Them who know to do good and do it not, are cut off from the Lord, since they only take up space, that could be used by better neighbors than themselves:

Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

And so, we see how righty dividing the word of truth, results in true doctrine of Christ, that can be applied to our lives. This includes of course, acknowledging symbol that is symbol, and teaching the spiritual understanding of it.

By symbolizing away anything we don't want to believe, we make ourselves bereft of any ability to teach doctrine of Christ unto edification and practical benefit to anyone on earth, much less the body of Christ.

And when others disagree with such false subjectiveness, all the false teacher ends up doing is drawing silly little conclusions out of what no one has said, so that even a little child can easily see through it.

Your bias is really shining through here. Scripture does NOT indicate that Jesus will only be destroying trouble making unbelievers when He returns. Paul indicated that He will destroy ALL of those who do not know God and don't obey the gospel when He returns. John, in Revelation 19:17-18, expands the scope of those Jesus will destroy at His return to "all people, free and slave, great and small" with the context being in relation to His enemies. No one who doesn't belong to Christ when He returns will be spared. That is what scripture clearly teaches. Only doctrinal bias can prevent someone from seeing that.

Jesus Himself said this:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

First, Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away and then He indicated that no one knows the day or hour that will happen. Then He talked about how the days leading up to His second coming will be like the days of Noah. And then He indicated that just as the flood killed all unbelievers in Noah's day "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man" as well. All unbelievers will be killed. That is what is indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-12 as well. You cannot possibly be objective and conclude that there will be any mortal survivors of Christ's return when you take all these scriptures into account.

 

[robert derrick]

I also understood that with God there is no contradictions, just bad interpretations, so I decided to never just accept contradictions any more and move on saying, well, it seems wrongheaded or contradictory to the facts, but everyone says this is what it means, so why sweat it, I will just accept it and move on. I quit doing that, and God started answering those seeming contradictions, Boom, BOOM, BOOM, very quickly. Some examples:

Exactly write. Some of the best tests of faith in Christ, is our trust in His Scriptures, that they never contradict each other.

Well, 1 Cor. 15 says we sleep/rest until the Rapture when the Dead are raised and Dan. 12:1-2 says the same thing about the Jews. We were created in God's image meaning we are immortal beings, so in truth, we never die, we only rest until judgment, well, the F.P. and Beast will not be given that luxury sleep that even the wicked get, who all sleep until the Second Resurrection of Death, they were cast straight into hell, ALIVE meaning they never got to rest in the grave !! Nothing else fits, and God can not lie.

I agree. Angels and men are created eternal spiritual beings. Angels have spiritual bodies only, but man has spiritual souls and natural bodies.

And so Scripture speaking of alive or dead men is confusing to the carnal mind. The angels are spirit only, and so when they sin, they are dead spirits forever, but men can sin and be dead spiritually, while yet alive physically.

Therefore, Scripture speaking of the dead men living again, applies spiritually and naturally. The souls of men redeemed from being dead in trespasses and sins, which can only be in this life, to become born again and spiritually alive. The angels have no such grace given.

Then when Scriptures speak of men being resurrected alive again, as in the rest of the dead after the first resurrection, it's their dead bodies that are alive again, at the final judgement.

Only those souls spiritually alive will be written in the book of life, while those souls spiritually dead will be cast into the lake of fire.

You are correct in that Dan 7 and Rev 20 means, that the beast and false prophet are the only men cast bodily alive into the lake of fire, without dying and living again bodily to be judged with the rest of the dead.

They will be as Korah's rebels, that went straight down the pit into hell.

And since Dan 7 proves what happens to those bodies, is death and destruction, then we see the mortal bodies of men perish, while the souls continue on in knowledge and understanding with torment forever.

When Scripture speaks of the devil being cast into that lake, it says nothing of him being alive at all.

While in flames of hell, the wicked dead of men still have mortal bodies in graves, that can be resurrected, but not after being cast into the lake of fire.

What this means, is that once a soul created by God is given a body coming into the world, that body will either be resurrected spiritually unto eternal life, or be destroyed in the lake of fire. We only have one body to please God with on this earth.

Our bodies are given once to die, and then after that the judgment.

The angels that sinned and are cast into hell, never have chance of being resurrected bodily and so live again, but follow the devil into the lake of fire with him.

 

[robert derrick]

I finally got who the Rev. 7:9-17 Saints are by deduction also. I understood who they can not be first, even though like all others I was deceived for years into thinking that they could only come out of the Great Tribulation, when the Scriptures kind of contradicted that,

The last days of great tribulation to purify the saints has been going on since the Lord's resurrection. The great tribulation against the saints began with Cain and righteous Abel. The OT saints were tried with tribulation, and so are we, which will be until the last day of the last beast and antichrist on earth.

And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the LORD, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation.

When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice.

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Those saints in Rev 7 can include any saint in Christ Jesus yesterday, today, and tomorrow, that is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. The manner of being sealed therefore is instructive, which is when the winds are held still, as in the times of stillness with the Lord:

Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah

Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

The names of the 12 tribes are not all the same as those engraved on the high priest's breastplate of old, and so they cannot be those of the natural tribes of Israel. Otherwise, scripture contradicts itself. As you say, God cannot lie nor be mistaken. They are not just 'Jewish' Christians, because there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ Jesus. We are the Israel of God, grafted into His green olive tree of Jacob and David.

There are two kinds of tribulation on earth, that from the wrath of the devil and man against God and His people, vs that of God Himself against their persecutors.

There is purifying tribulation from the devil for the saints, and punishing tribulation from God for the wicked, that make trouble and war with the saints:

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile.

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you...Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.


The great tribulation against the saints began with Cain and Abel, and continues today, and will only stop with the resurrection of the saints at the Lord's return.

Then God will deliver His quick and swift great tribulation upon the earth, before coming down to destroy the armies at Armageddon. It will be a quick prepping barrage, before invading to recover His own territory: it will be God's D-Day with His armies following.

As you suggested in another place, there will be thousand years of the Lord on earth, in contrast to the six thousand of the devil on earth. Likewise there will be a final day of short work of God's tribulation upon the earth, after thousands of years of the devil's tribulation on the saints.

God and His people will not just take back the promised land around Jerusalem as before, but will be all the earth, that the Lord promised to come and judge.

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

 

[robert derrick]

so I had ACCEPTED that contradiction as fact and just said, oh well, that is the way it goes. Here is why it never fit for for me, Jesus in the 5th Seal (the seals are Prophesies by Jesus of what will soon come, not real events)

Are you saying it is symbol only?

In Rev 6, I see real souls of OT saints taken captive into heaven by the Lord, as well as souls of NT saints, now dying in the Lord and are in His presence in heaven, at the altar of His temple in heaven.

shows what the martyrs hearts will be thinking after they are killed, he gives them white robes and tells them they MUST WAIT for a little season, until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have, ten they can get their vengeance on those people ON EARTH, who killed the.

I agree, which proves there are saints on earth, being purified by the tribulation of the devil upon them.

That tribulation is temptation to endure, deception to reject, and persecution not to deny the Lord by.

1.) They have tom wait until the Anti-Christs 42 month reign is up before they get their vengeance 2.) They get vengeance on people who are ALIVE ON EARTH, not on people long ago dead. so, that never fit the Rev. 7:9-17b Saints, they are told to WAIT, they are not resurrected before Jesus Second Coming !!

I agree. There is always simple Scripture here and there, to properly interpret other Scripture:

In John 14, Jesus says plainly that He will return for His church on earth, which is the resurrection fo the dead and alive in Christ, to meet Him in the air.

I say, that is the time all tribulation upon saints ends, and the Lord's wrath of tribulation begins for a little season. That I believe is when Satan is caste down with all them remaining on earth, and he will begin to eat his own, like the snake that he is.

This little season of wrath and plagues of tribulation from God, will be while He and His saints sup in the air. Then He comes down to destroy them at Armageddon with bright power, and then stand on the Mount at Jerusalem, and then judge the natural sheep and goats.

His rule and shepherding with rods of iron, will only begin with naturally neighborly and law-abiding people, whether Jew or Gentile.

Now Rev. 20:4 CONFIRMS this, we see that these people ae only RAISED & JUDGED after the Second Coming, and only these Gentile Martyrs serve on earth with Jesus for his 1000 year reign, so these people CAN NOT be those that were seen resurrected in Rev. 7:9-17.

Them being resurrected in Rev 7, is an assumption, because all the scripture speaks of, is them sealed on earth, and them in His presence at His altar in heaven, and being given white robes.

 

[robert derrick]

So, then, how and why were they said to come out of Great Tribulation? Well, before I just accepted things, starting about 7 years ago I was like Lord, this is contradictory, and you are not a liar, so where did us men miss the boat here Lord ? And, over a few week the Lord gave me the answer, in John 16:33 Jesus tells us in this world we will always have tribulation.

And there you go. You got it.

Christians act like great tribulation for Christians in this world is only something in the future. Why? Because they have not really experienced what the righteous saints have since Cain slew Abel?

Afterall, the greatest tribulation ever on this earth, that really matters to any man, is that going on right now. What does that man care if there is greater tribulation elsewhere?

It's like the greatest gift: It's the one needed now.

Rev. 12:11 is what gave the Church the power to overcome Satan, we preached the Gospel even when death was threatened...11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

And so we see the common tribulation upon the common salvation of all saints:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

All souls enduring unto the end, are beheaded for Jesus' sake, not bodily but spiritually: the old man of sin is beheaded, when we take up our own cross for Christ's sake, that we may have a new Head and Lord and God over our hearts and lives.

How the body dies is only important to the person at death, but not to be resurrected from the dead unto everlasting life.

So, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT have come from the 70th week Greatest Ever Troubles, it is not possible according to the scriptures,

They were not all from the end of the last great tribulation, which began with Christ's resurrection. The OT saints were there too.

Once again, Rev 7 says nothing of the bodily resurrection.

Can we have Great Troubles with out them being the Greatest Ever Troubles? YES INDEED !!

Correct, as I point out above. I have been through tribulations on earth as a Christian, including persecution with threat of harm, and may have worse to come, but all Christians will suffer tribulation from the devil and even men.

Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are tge Pre Trib Raptured Church who indeed came out of Great Tribulation,

The problem here, once again, is that the only pre-tribulation death and resurrection of the saints, is that of pre-tribulation and wrath from God on the earth.

The tribulation and wrath of the devil is promised to all saints, who are also promised not to suffer the tribulation and anguish from God.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

God's people are not appointed to His tribulation and wrath upon the wicked.

The error Christians make about 'pre-post' tribulation teaching, is by not first making difference between the tribulation to purify the saints, that now is, and the tribulation to punish the wicked, that will come at His return.

The resurrection of the saints is at the end of the devil's tribulation upon them, and at the beginning of the Lord's tribulation upon their persecutors.

He that is taken out of the way, for the Lord to begin His tribulation upon the earth, is the resurrected church.

where millions of our brother have died for the Gospel's sake and for Jesus' name !! But those who die during the 70th week are different, they had to WAIT a little season (1260 days or 3.5 years) and we see when they are raised, in Rev. 20:4 AFTER Jesus returns with the Church in Rev. 19 !!

The only difference between any resurrected saint, is them that were dead in the Lord, and them alive and remaining on earth, which will be up to the very last hour and judgment of Babylon in Rev 14:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters...And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Remember, the distinct dividing line between tribulation and wrath upon saints, and tribulation and anguish upon the wicked, is the resurrection of the church at the Lord's return: that will include them still alive and remain on the earth.

There will be saints alive on earth at the last hour of the last beast's reign. And that dividing line be in a moment and twinkling of the eye.

And those left on earth will see it with their eyes: all the witnesses of Christ made immortal will be seen standing on the earth, even as the two in Jerusalem.

And all eyes will see them ascend into the air to meet with the Lord in clouds, even as His disciples saw Him ascend.

All the world will know the resurrection and ascension of the Lord's church just occurred before their very eyes, wheresoever the bodies were resurrected and transformed over all the earth.

The only thing Scripture speaks of as in a moment, is the resurrection into immortal bodies itself, not of the ascension to meet Jesus.

 

[robert derrick]

Rev. 12:17 is the Remnant Church, it CAN NOT be Jews, go look at it, it can only be the Remnant Gentile Church, again proving the Pre Trib Rapture

True. There is no Jew nor Gentile in the eyes of the Lord at this time on earth. Jesus will not be returning for the unbelieving Jews, that demanded their Messiah come as from heaven the first time.

He will be coming for all His saints, and any Jews at Armageddon will be shown no quarter with them. God is not a respecter of persons after the flesh.

He will also execute any goatly Jew or Gentile.

I believe however the prophecies of natural Israel during His reign on earth must be fulfilled, which will only be those naturally good Jewish sheep.

Their restoration of land will begin with Abraham receiving the land he was personally promised, that he walked on this earth.

I will any responses from you, that you wish. I trust your judgment, and if you can soundly correct something for me, I'll be glad to see it.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes, I agree. That's what I do. What it is not is assuming that any given text is either literal or figurative. Every verse and passage needs to be interpreted according to its own context without doctrinal bias being taken into it.

True. The discipline of knowing symbol, allegory, parable is provided by Scripture itself, and not by our own doctrine.

But, how do you determine what is literal and what is symbolic? I believe your decision on such things is heavily influenced by doctrinal bias.

1. Allegory is obvious that any child can see it. The sheep and goats are not sheep and goats, but good and evil people.

2. All parables spoken by the Lord, have that fact written in context of the Scriptures, where the parable is spoken.

3. Symbols of things used in an event, do not make the event symbolic. The sword proceeding out of the Lord's mouth, does not make the Lord's return with His armies symbolic.

I believe you over use symbol for your doctrine, and you believe I under use them for my doctrine.

I have given my discipline of Scripture for determination of symbols. What's yours'?

Rod of iron rule? You mean the one where He destroys His enemies, as described in Psalm 2:7-9 and Revelation 19:15-18?

That's not ruling. That's slaughtering. The rod of iron rule is for them not gathered at Armageddon, nor judged as goats.

It is double-edged: shepherding for the innocent, and condemnation for the guilty. It simply means true godly righteous judgment without respect of persons, condemning not the innocent, nor delaying the sentenced execution for the guilty.

They all begin as natural sheep, but they all don't remain that way, nor their children, though all rule leads that way.

Rule over the remaining sheep of the earth? Where do you get that from? Scripture teaches that all believers, dead and alive, will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord when He comes (1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17). All unbelievers, on the other hand, will be killed at that time (Matt 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12). So, I'd like to know where these mortal survivors of His return that you believe in could possibly come from.

We disagree. And we've argued it enough already. If you want to understand my responses, then you can back and review again. I already know yours', and have shown why I don't agree.

Why do you not accept what Jesus said in John 5:28-29?

I do. I just reject your teaching of scripture as false.

How does this line up with what Jesus said in John 5:28-29?

That is the same last resurrection of the bodies of the rest of the dead, that Daniel prophesied, which is after the first resurrection of the bodies of the saints.

Your bias is really shining through here. Scripture does NOT indicate that Jesus will only be destroying trouble making unbelievers when He returns.

You reject the Scripture as written, to teach your own doctrine of universal destruction on the earth at the Lord's return.

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you.

Not all believers desire to trouble Christians, nor do so.

Paul indicated that He will destroy ALL of those who do not know God and don't obey the gospel when He returns.

All them that trouble the saints, that do not believe the gospel. Not all them not believing the gospel.

Jesus Himself said this:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father.

Since we don't know the day nor the hour of His second coming, then we also don't know the day nor hour of the end of His reign.

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

1. The loosening of Satan on earth the last time, and Gog and Magog from all corners of the earth, says nothing about the Lord coming, but only fire from God coming down from heaven.

That fire of God is not Jesus Christ scorching the earth.

2. Immediately after speaking of His coming as the flood of Noah, there will be one taken and the other left.

Your doctrine once again is out of context.

First, Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away

At the end of His reign.

Then He talked about how the days leading up to His second coming will be like the days of Noah. And then He indicated that just as the flood killed all unbelievers in Noah's day

I say it is all about the unexpectedness of it, and the swiftness of it, which is confirmed as a thief in the night.

This is proven by one being taken away, and one being left on earth, after His coming as a flood.

Context is everything. Only true teaching takes every Scripture in context of all Scripture.

False teaching excludes Scripture that doesn't fit their doctrine.

 

[robert derrick]

Congratulations on completely missing the point. I was talking about scripture in general, not just scripture about Christ's reign.

Then what text about His millennial reign on this earth, have you not symbolized, so that it doesn't literally happen on earth?

Saying it is only the new earth, and not this earth is symbolizing all prophecy of it.

Symbolic text does not equal myth. The truth is sometimes written in symbolism. Is that a problem for you?

Making something literal into symbol only, is myth-making, where it is all symbol, and no reality.

Jesus reigns right now. That is a fact. Scripture teaches that very clearly. When He returns at the end of the age, He will deliver the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:22-24, Matt 13:40-43). So, the kingdom that will be manifested in its fullness when Christ returns is one that will be on the new earth and sin and death will be no more at that point.

I teach both His spiritual resurrection and reign with Him today, and that with Him on earth tomorrow.

You think there can't be both spiritually today and earthly tomorrow.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

True. There is no Jew nor Gentile in the eyes of the Lord at this time on earth. Jesus will not be returning for the unbelieving Jews, that demanded their Messiah come as from heaven the first time.

Do me a favor, I like discussing things with you, but I also want to do it as we are on the same page on things. Reread Gal. chapter 3 "IN THIS NEW LIGHT" or in this kind of thinking which you may not have tried before and see if it changes how you see what Paul meant by there is neither Jew nor Gentile. People who say all Jews and Gentiles are now one, IMHO, miss what Paul is saying, because he says the exact same thing about Males & Females BUT.........we know there are still males and females, catch my drift? So, if there are still males and females, the juxtaposition can't mean there are now no Jews or Gentiles. Now I will tell you what Paul meant, REREAD IT, and I think you will see what he really meant.

So, Paul says who has bewItched or deceived you oh foolish Galatians, that starting out in the spirit (FAITH) you have now started serving the flesh (THE LAW). Then Paul shows over and over in the passage how the LAW is of the flesh and that we can only come unto Christ by Faith, he even gives examples of Faithful Abraham, and says the Law was only given 430 years AFTER the Promise to Abraham because of sin and that the Law was only a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, but after Faith is come we no longer need the Law !! So, over and over this chapter is really about living BY FAITH, instead of keeping THE LAW.

So, when we first start reading this chapter we can see, Paul is angry at them, calls them foolish, says someone bewitched or deceived them. So, here is what we can surmise happened, "Jewish Christian Converts" came in and tried to tell the Galatians that they still had to keep THE LAW in order to make it to heaven, so the Galatians, instead of living by FAITH ALONE, were now keeping the Sabbath no doubt like the Jews, maybe even sacrificing animals, "they were led to THINK they had to act like Jews in order to make it to heaven, via keeping the Laws of Moses". Thus reread it now knowing that........These Galatians had left the FAITH and were serving THE LAW !! So, Paul over and over admonished them, the LAW only came after The Promise and by saying that after Jesus came the LAW is now no good, etc. etc.

So, now when you read this let it really sink in what Paul is saying, he is basically telling the Gentiles, HEY, you are good enough via FAITH ALONE, to make it into heaven, you do not have to act like you are Jewish in order to make it into heaven by keeping THE LAW. Then he says this, which people have misconstrued, he says "Hey Galatians, there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile), Male nor Female, Slave nor Freeman, you are all ONE in Christ Jesus !! BUT............THINK NOW...........He is not saying that all people are now Males anymore than he is saying all men are Jews, he is simply saying God ONLY SEES our Faith, not if we are Jews or Greeks, Males or Females or even if we are Slaves or Freemen, God could care less, as long as we have FAITH, we are of FAITHFUL Abraham. Be we Jew, Female, Male or Greek, only those OF FAITH are of God because nothing we can ever do is good enough to get us into Heaven.

So, STOP TRYING TO BE Jewish, that is what he is telling the Galatians. Its that simple, and the Male vs. Female angle shows why the Jew vs. Greek angle can not mean we are all one in Jesus now in that there are no Jews nor Gentiles, of course there are, just like there are still Male & Females !! But both Males & Females can only please God by FAITH ALONE and both Jews and Gentiles only please God by FAITH ALONE, so do not try to keep the Laws of Moses, to do so (of course) is to belittle Jesus' Sacrifice, as Paul says elsewhere.

There are still Jews on earth, there are still Italians, there are Greeks, there are Russians, there are Turks, there are now New Yorkers, (LOL). Paul never implied there was now no Jews or Greeks, he was simply saying God only sees those of us who live by Faith Alone, He does not see Jews nor Gentiles, so STOP trying to be Jews !!

Now, REREAD the chapter with that in mind. Israel will be on the clock again, after the Rapture, they must repent during the 70th week, Dan. 9:24-27 says so.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Are you saying it is symbol only?

In Rev 6, I see real souls of OT saints taken captive into heaven by the Lord, as well as souls of NT saints, now dying in the Lord and are in His presence in heaven, at the altar of His temple in heaven.

No, God sees our every thought, He doesn't really need to tell of a "conversation with Jesus" in order to tell us what their hearts desire is. We see, their hearts desire was vengeance on those living on earth who had killed them (during the 70th week troubles). BUT..........................Those troubles only arise via the Rev. 8 Wrath of God or the Asteroid Impact, this starts God's Wrath. Jesus thus FORTELLS of these coming events in Seal #6. And this is when the A.C. is finally allowed to go forth conquering, so Jesus also FORETELLS of this in Seals 1-5. Jesus is therefore telling us about what will soon happen under the Anti-Christs 42 month rule, when he goes forth, starting in Rev. 8 when God's Wrath falls, he 1.) Conquers for 42 months which 2.) Takes away Peace/brings War for 42 months which will then 3.) Bring Famine for 42 months via his 4.) Tyrannical rule of 42 months which brings Sickness/Death for 42 months. He also Martyrs the Gentile Saints who come to Christ for 42 months via Seal #5, he can not get at the new Jewish converts who are hidden/protected by God Himself in the Petra/Bozrah area for 1260 days.

A Sealed Message from a King (lets say three signet seals) kept the message from being read by others, if all three seals had been taken off or loosed, then the messenger would be killed. Likewise, the number 7 means Divine Completion, thus God has divinely sealed up this Scroll of 7 Trumpet Judgments Himself, no one can read them until all 7 Seals have been loosed, that is why seal #7 is over in Rev. 8. That is also why there is Silence in Heaven for 30 minutes, God's Wrath only falls when seal #7 is loosed over in Rev. 8. God repented from flooding the world, it saddened him, so we got the Rainbow Promise. So, likewise, there is no Joy in Heaven about what these 7 Trumpet Judgments will bring, God is righteous and must judge, but the angels still take no joy in what is coming upon the earth and mankind, it breaks all of heavens hearts, but judgment MUST STILL COME!!

So, as Jesus Prophesies what will soon come with the 7 Seals, he foretells also of the coming DOTL just like Joel 2:31 foretold of it, the Sun & Moon will be darkened, and Joel speaks of fire also. Well, the Rev. 8 asteroid impact will bring all of this to pass. Trump #4 is Seal # 6 coming TRUE, as well as Joel 2:31 coming true. The 144,000 are simply the Jews (3-5 million whom repent) Fleeing Judea at the 1290 AoD just before the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering at the 1260 Rev. 8 DOTL event. The Jews thus have 30 days to flee Judea before Judgment falls. Its really simple.

Take a closet door with 7 locks. When you take 6 off can you show your friends anything in the closet yet? No, the door still has one lock on it. Only when that 7th lock is removed can the door finally be opened up to show what is inside of the closet. Now, you can indeed FORETELL them what's in it as you take the first six locks off, but only when you take the 7th lock off can you show them. Likewise, only when Seal #7 is removed can the Scroll of Judgments be read from. The problem is, most do not see this at all. They see 21 Judgments, as I did for years, but there are only 7 (Divine Completion) Trumpet Judgments, the last three are the Three Woes. The 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe !! Thus in Rev. 10 we now know what John meant by when the 7 Thunders had sounded (Trumps) time will be no more [as we now know it]. Jesus will take over. That is why when John ate the small book it was both sweet and sour. There will be billions of men and women who die, of course that is sour, BUT ALAS.........Judgment brings Jesus' rule and us abiding in the Lord for evermore, and that is indeed as SWEET as Honey. Amen. Glory to God, come Lord come !!

 

[Truth7t7]

It's certainly possible for someone to try and make the Lord's return the same as at the scorching of the earth, since anyone can think, read, and promote whatever they want about the Bible. But it's just not possible to do so with Scriptural integrity.

Any objective reader of the Bible cannot possibly do so, since it would become a tangled confusion of plainly contradicting details. That is why people must resort to spiritualizing, symbolizing, or making parables of any prophetic Scripture necessary to do so.

The objective reading is simple:

1. Them of the nations, not all, will gather at Armageddon to fight with the Lord, vs All of God and Magog will be gathered around the beloved city of the saints, and not at Armageddon.

2. The Lord Himself and His armies of saints will be coming down from the air, to fight at Armageddon, vs Fire from God out of heaven will destroy Gog and Magog.

3. The fowls of the air will be gathered from all the earth to eat of the flesh of the dead armies, vs The fire from heaven will scorch Gog and Magog alive.

4. The Jerusalem under the rule of the beast, is spiritually as Sodom and Egypt at the Lord's return, vs the beloved city of the saints is spiritually that of Christ and God.

5. Abraham will be given the land promised to him by God, that he personally walked on. Job also will see His redeemer standing on the earth as prophesied, vs The scorched earth will have no land for Jesus Himself nor anyone to stand upon. much less to give to anyone as a blessing.

6. There will be them of the nations, remaining after the slaying of armies, that the Lord will rule with His saints, vs. The scorched earth will have no one to rule at all.

7. The judgment of the natural sheep and goats on earth, vs the great white throne judgment of all the rest of the resurrected dead, after the earth is scorched and fled away.

The problem with many Christians, is we sometimes want to read Scripture from our own personal faith, rather than read the Bible objectively, and at least understand what the Author is saying first, and then take Him at His word.

No objective reader can possibly mistake the Bible speaking of the return of the Lord to this earth, and this earth being scorched with fire out of heaven.

Doing away with objective reading of the Bible, is also the result of spiritualizing and symbolizing away the objective reading of the words written therein.

Once we begin to symbolize, or make parables of the plain words of Scripture, in order to conform the words to our own faith, then the Bible does indeed become what many scholarly unbelievers have said of it: It is just another interesting and wise book of man about common myths, legends, parables, fables, etc... It becomes simply another book of many wise sayings, principles, and antidotes, much like the Gilgamesh Saga, Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, Aesop's fables, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Plato's Republic, etc...

Your Living In Denial Of Biblical Truth Before Your Eyes

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[ewq1938]

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

None of this is biblical plus it ignores everything Revelation tells us.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Jesus reigns right now. That is a fact. Scripture teaches that very clearly.

If you take Rev 20:4 to mean a past event, then those who lived and reigned spiritually overcame and died to the beast.

How does Christ reign the same time as the beast?
And if he reigned at his ascension, his people fighting the beast, Satan couldn’t be sealed because he works in tandem with it. It’s very difficult to logically understand this position

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Your Living In Denial Of Biblical Truth Before Your Eyes

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You just do not get it do you? You have a fundamental lack of understanding of old biblical scriptures. For starters you think the DOTL is one day, that is so lazy, biblically speaking, that its outright amusing. All one has to do is read the bible to understand the Day of the Lord speaks about one day in which God starts taking back the title deed of this earth with His Wrath, which lasts 1260 days, then once Jesus takes over the DOTL is still in effect, Jesus rules for 1000 yeas via the Kingdom Age. Then as we Judge those men on earth who are raised at the Second Death, and Satan is freed, and once again deceives men on earth, God destroys them all with Fire as New Jerusalem descends, with the Church inside, thus it is called the Bride of Christ. That is when the "TRANSITION HAPPENS" we move to New Jerusalem as this earth and Universe is laid waste, I personally think this earth, and maybe this whole universe, is set ablaze and Satan and his followers are trapped on this earth, which I think is enveloped with fire and thus becomes the Everlasting hell that burns forever and ever.

Matt. 24:29 says IMMEDITELY AFTER the Troubles of those days the Sun & Moon events will happen, or they get darker by 1/3...............THEN or 1260 days later, Jesus returns in verse 30. We see the exact same thing in Zech. 14:2 and THEN............in Zech. 14:3 we see Jesus landing on Mount. Zion 1260 days later. So, Zech. 14:1-2 is Jerusalem getting sacked, then 1260 days later Jesus shows up, Jerusalem can not get sacked until the Asteroid hits in Rev. 8, because only then does God allow the Anti-Christ to go forth conquering. You really and truly just do not understand these things at all. It doesn't take that much effort to find these truths out, but you prefer to shift everything to fit your molded understandings, which are in error.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

3. Symbols of things used in an event, do not make the event symbolic.

Of course. Who doesn't know this?

The sword proceeding out of the Lord's mouth, does not make the Lord's return with His armies symbolic.

Right, but it does mean the method by which He will destroy His enemies at that time is described symbolically. It is described literally in other passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12.

I believe you over use symbol for your doctrine, and you believe I under use them for my doctrine.

I suppose that may be true, but the fact is that I take a number of passages more literally than you do. For example, when I read a passage like 2 Thess 1:7-10 I believe it is talking about Jesus destroying literally all of those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel when He returns. But, that isn't how Premils like yourself interpret the passage.

I also take Jesus very literally in a passage like John 5:28-29 when He says a singular time or event is coming when literally all of the dead will be resurrected. You don't interpret it that way since you have some people resurrected at one time and others being resurrected at another time (and maybe others at yet another time if you're pre-trib).

I have given my discipline of Scripture for determination of symbols. What's yours'?

Yeah, I guess you did, but it doesn't make any sense. My takeaway from what you said is that it's always obvious as to what is symbolic and what isn't, but that is simply not true. My approach is that I establish the foundation of my doctrine on clear, straightforward scripture and then I interpret scripture in highly symbolic books like Revelation accordingly. I'm not going to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts other more clear scripture the way I believe Premils do.

That's not ruling. That's slaughtering. The rod of iron rule is for them not gathered at Armageddon, nor judged as goats.

Ruling with a rod of iron is not the same as ruling in the way you're thinking about. Have you ever read Psalm 2:7-9? It talks about Him BREAKING/DESTROYING His enemies with a rod of iron. In Revelation 19:15-18 the description of Him ruling with a rod of iron is accompanied by descriptions of Him destroying His enemies. Why do you not take these things into account?

It is double-edged: shepherding for the innocent, and condemnation for the guilty. It simply means true godly righteous judgment without respect of persons, condemning not the innocent, nor delaying the sentenced execution for the guilty.

They all begin as natural sheep, but they all don't remain that way, nor their children, though all rule leads that way.

Where is anything like this described in Psalm 2:7-9 or Revelation 19:15-18?

We disagree. And we've argued it enough already. If you want to understand my responses, then you can back and review again. I already know yours', and have shown why I don't agree.


I do. I just reject your teaching of scripture as false.

Well, no kidding. Yet, I don't believe you have done anything to refute my beliefs.

That is the same last resurrection of the bodies of the rest of the dead, that Daniel prophesied, which is after the first resurrection of the bodies of the saints.

So, you believe "the rest of the dead" includes believers? Clearly, the ones who Jesus said will "rise to live" in John 5:28-29 are believers.

You reject the Scripture as written, to teach your own doctrine of universal destruction on the earth at the Lord's return.

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you.

Not all believers desire to trouble Christians, nor do so.

He was not just referring to them. He referred generally to those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel. It is you who rejects the scripture as written. And you are not taking other scripture into consideration which teaches that Jesus will destroy all of His enemies when He returns, such as Matthew 24:35-39 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

All them that trouble the saints, that do not believe the gospel. Not all them not believing the gospel.

Nope. It will be all who don't believe the gospel. No exceptions. Do you see Jesus making any exceptions here:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Jesus indicated that just as all unbelievers without exception were killed by the flood in Noah's day, "that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". You are not interpreting scripture with scripture. You are interpreting 2 Thess 1:7-10 in such a way that contradicts passages like this one and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

1. The loosening of Satan on earth the last time, and Gog and Magog from all corners of the earth, says nothing about the Lord coming, but only fire from God coming down from heaven.

That fire of God is not Jesus Christ scorching the earth.

Is He going to do so twice? How do you interpret this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Peter indicated that, in keeping with the promise of Christ's second coming, the heavens and the earth will be burned up and renewed, resulting in the new heavens and new earth that we are looking forward to. So, that will happen on the day Christ returns. How could it happen again 1,000+ years later?

2. Immediately after speaking of His coming as the flood of Noah, there will be one taken and the other left.
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Your doctrine once again is out of context.

The ones left on earth are left there to be destroyed. You are taking EVERYTHING out of context.

I say it is all about the unexpectedness of it, and the swiftness of it, which is confirmed as a thief in the night.

This is proven by one being taken away, and one being left on earth, after His coming as a flood.

Context is everything. Only true teaching takes every Scripture in context of all Scripture.

The context of Matthew 24:35-39 is that Jesus will destroy all unbelievers when He comes just as all unbelievers were killed by the flood. This lines up perfectly with other scripture like 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:15-18. So, you are the one that is not taking all of scripture into account here, not me.

False teaching excludes Scripture that doesn't fit their doctrine.

I agree. And that is exactly what you do.