Controversial... Hence debate forum.

[Aunty Jane]

The problem with that scenario is it makes Jesus a liar, because He said He wasn’t a spirit - and said a spirit has no t flesh and bones as you see I have - and had the apostles touch Him, and then ate a meal to prove it.

You just can't see what is plainly written....Jesus was resurrected as a spirit as the scripture says...read it again...Paul said...
"So also it is written: “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit."

Peter said that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit" (1 Peter 3:18)....wouldn't Peter and Paul know better than you, since Jesus appeared to both of them after his resurrection?

And since spirits can’t die, they aren’t ever resurrected.

He wasn't a spirit when he died.....he was a human.....but he was raised as a spirit...as the scripture says.....give it up....you really are flogging a dead horse mate.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This reply to another post covers the watchtower claims.

(Also it’s clear Elijah was taken bodily to heaven without dying, establishing biblical precedent).

And scripture says that without the shedding of blood is no remission of sin:

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Jesus shed His blood for the remission of our sins, and rose in a body without blood, saying His body was flesh and BONES, instead of flesh and blood - Luke 24:39 - thus if what Jesus sacrificed for us has to remain gone, He didn’t take back His blood, but still rose in a physical body.

This negates the watchtower claim that His body had to disappear without resurrection because He gave His BODY for remission of sins - because its His blood that did it

Well you just hang onto that if it makes you happy...OK?

 

[Brakelite]

I assume that when someone believes in the trinity that they all accept the same ideas. The trinity does not come with "versions" because all versions are a distortion of everything Jesus taught. It makes no difference to me what version you accept. They are all in error according to my view because there is no teaching in the Bible that says Jesus is "ho theos" (Yahweh).


Most of Christendom would say that, but their beliefs and practices can all be traced back to Babylon, not finding their origins in the word of God at all but in a corrupted church, hundreds of years after Christ's death.


Yes I know, that is what the Bible says.....but nowhere does it say that Jesus is in any way equal to his superior Father.


Because believing Jesus to be God (with a capital "G") is the problem. Jesus can be "divine" without being "deity". In the definition of the Greek word "theos" Jesus can be "a god" but not "the God". (ho theos) He never once said he was a deity.


Because Jesus went to great lengths to answer the devil about whom we are to worship.
Luke 4:7-8....the devil, in offering "all the kingdoms of this world" to Jesus in exchange for one act of "worship" said....
"If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.” 8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Worship belongs only to Yahweh (Jehovah).
Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 10:20 where the first Commandment (Exodus 20:3) is confirmed and the tetragrammaton is clearly seen, and where it states that Yahweh is to be worshipped and Jesus said "Him alone". To worship one who is not God (capital "G") is blasphemous.
"pro·sky·neʹo" in Greek is only rendered "worship" when it pertains to God. It is rendered "obeisance" with reference to humans.


"Obviously"? Who said? The one whom the Father used to create all things is himself a creation as it states in Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14...this son is the "firstborn" meaning that there are others who are of his ilk. God has many "sons" but all of them were created by his "firstborn". The term "begotten" is used in scripture to describe those who are ordinary humans. "Only begotten" (monogenes) is the term used for an "only child". (Luke 7:12) Monogenes does not mean uncreated.

Yep, rationalizing. You said it yourself. Like Father like Son. But you and your church wants to make him out to be an angel. KJV Hebrews 1:8
8 But unto the Son he said, "your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom."

 

[Triumph1300]

Actually I googled it..

And through Google you find the truth? lol

 

[Triumph1300]

Well you just hang onto that if it makes you happy...OK?

I guess that includes "google".

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Yep, rationalizing. You said it yourself. Like Father like Son. But you and your church wants to make him out to be an angel. KJV Hebrews 1:8
8 But unto the Son he [The Father?] said, "your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom."

Amen! And, Also Amazing Is how The Father Has "A God," eh?:

Rev_1:6 And hath made us kings and priests Unto God [The SON?]
and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

and, unless one is Close-minded, about 500 Other Plain And Clear Scriptures?:

"Complete" Case For JESUS Is Almighty God! Amen?

IF ALL of these can be "rationalized" away, then I suppose "that view" would be
the Correct one, eh? But then, HOW will "such" be accounted for At Judgement?

GRACE and Peace!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Join the dots yourself as to why he asked for food and ate it in front of them.

The eating and drinking was for the same reason that other spirit beings in materialised form ate and drank in the times before Jesus came....this was to demonstrate that they were not breaking the Mosaic law by communicating with invisible spirits.

Joining the dots can lead you in many directions if you don’t know what dots to join.

When Moses was permitted to enter the Most Holy Compartment of the Tabernacle where he communicated with God verbally, only Moses saw the Shekinah light and heard God’s words of instruction for his nation. There was no need for physical manifestation apart from the light and the voice. Only Moses knew how God spoke to him, and he shared some of it with us via the biblical record.

The fact that rebel spirits who followed satan into rebellion can influence people today (as they did in Noah’s day) with clairvoyance and spirit mediums, is proof that they do not know or obey God’s commands concerning the practice of spiritism in its many forms. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

Those spirits who materialised in pre-Christian times were faithful messengers of God. The rebel spirits who materialised in Noah’s day created great physical and spiritual damage to earth’s inhabitants, so after God removed them with the flood, He took away the rebels’ ability to materialise, as there is no mention of them doing so ever again. Only faithful angels were permitted to do that. But the influence of wicked, unseen spirits, under the command of the devil was still in evidence and remain to this day......we can see where they are taking the human race.....to the final showdown.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yep, rationalizing. You said it yourself. Like Father like Son. But you and your church wants to make him out to be an angel. KJV Hebrews 1:8
8 But unto the Son he said, "your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom."

Perhaps it pays to read the whole thread Backlit.....I already covered this....

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.
So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing.” (NET)

So what is this telling us...?

Paul is quoting OT scripture. Psalm 45:6-7 is addressed to a human king.
The NET renders that verse...."Your throne, O God, is permanent.
"The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice.
7 You loved justice and hate evil.
For this reason God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of joy, elevating you above your companions."

This is talking about God's throne, shared with his son; (Revelation 3:21) it's about God's everlasting rulership by his anointed one....."God your God" is talking about God's anointed Messiah.
God cannot be his own God. (Revelation 3:12)

That verse isn’t saying what your biased KJV is inferring.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And through Google you find the truth? lol

LOL...what’s really funny is that this is all you can offer....Google has its good points, but really I only wanted an idea of the stats. That is what it gave me. Do you have some more accurate stats, perhaps?

Can you not offer something more meaningful to the discussion?

I guess that includes "google".

Very deep and insightful.....thank you for your input.

 

[Michael S. Blanchard]

Muslims will go to Heaven, Christians will go to Heaven. Non Christians and Non Muslims will go to Heaven. Jesus will judge all at His Second Coming. We all should worry about our own salvation and treat others as we would expect to be treated, but also we should be humble, and turn the other cheek when evil attacks us, knowing that our salvation after death will be realized. Even if we have to lose our heads for God. It's a real possibility.

 

[quietthinker]

The eating and drinking was for the same reason that other spirit beings in materialised form ate and drank in the times before Jesus came....this was to demonstrate that they were not breaking the Mosaic law by communicating with invisible spirits.

Joining the dots can lead you in many directions if you don’t know what dots to join.

When Moses was permitted to enter the Most Holy Compartment of the Tabernacle where he communicated with God verbally, only Moses saw the Shekinah light and heard God’s words of instruction for his nation. There was no need for physical manifestation apart from the light and the voice. Only Moses knew how God spoke to him, and he shared some of it with us via the biblical record.

The fact that rebel spirits who followed satan into rebellion can influence people today (as they did in Noah’s day) with clairvoyance and spirit mediums, is proof that they do not know or obey God’s commands concerning the practice of spiritism in its many forms. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

Those spirits who materialised in pre-Christian times were faithful messengers of God. The rebel spirits who materialised in Noah’s day created great physical and spiritual damage to earth’s inhabitants, so after God removed them with the flood, He took away the rebels’ ability to materialise, as there is no mention of them doing so ever again. Only faithful angels were permitted to do that. But the influence of wicked, unseen spirits, under the command of the devil was still in evidence and remain to this day......we can see where they are taking the human race.....to the final showdown.

wow, you have conjured quiet a story AJ.....and what you say, 'Joining the dots can lead you in many directions if you don’t know what dots to join' is pertinent. The imagination it seems knows no bounds.

 

[Enoch111]

That verse isn’t saying what your biased KJV is inferring.

This is hilarious, coming from one who probably uses the corrupted New World Translation! And your understanding of Hebrews 1:8,9 is also totally false. The focus is not on the throne of God but on God the Son (Jesus) whose throne is eternal, and who loves righteousness and hates iniquity. That iniquity includes denying that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh.

 

[amigo de christo]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness . God was manifest in the flesh ....................
I do believe that is how timothy chapter three verse sixteen begins .
And it aligns perfectly with what JOHN wrote in His gospel about the WORD .

 

[Brakelite]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness . God was manifest in the flesh ....................
I do believe that is how timothy chapter three verse sixteen begins .
And it aligns perfectly with what JOHN wrote in His gospel about the WORD .

And the first few verses in Hebrews.

 

[Brakelite]

Perhaps it pays to read the whole thread Backlit.....I already covered this....

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.
So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing.” (NET)

So what is this telling us...?

Paul is quoting OT scripture. Psalm 45:6-7 is addressed to a human king.
The NET renders that verse...."Your throne, O God, is permanent.
"The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice.
7 You loved justice and hate evil.
For this reason God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of joy, elevating you above your companions."

This is talking about God's throne, shared with his son; (Revelation 3:21) it's about God's everlasting rulership by his anointed one....."God your God" is talking about God's anointed Messiah.
God cannot be his own God. (Revelation 3:12)

That verse isn’t saying what your biased KJV is inferring.

Covered this? You certainly did. Obscured it entirely by omitting half the verse.

And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he , (the Father) saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” Hebrews 1:7-8 Paul is now bringing the introductory words of his epistle towards a climax. The above words are citations from Psalm 104:4 and Psalms 45:6-7. The writer is applying the latter to the Father speaking to His Son. The Father is referring to His Son as God. This is the highest acclamation that could possibly be made of the Son. It is the testimony of God Himself. God never said to any of the angels, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”. He only said it to His Son. This is the point that the writer of Hebrews is making (see 1:5 and 1:13). Christ is deity. The angels are not deity. The verses following say “Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:” Hebrews 1:9-10 Here we see God referring to Himself as His Son’s God (theos). Notice too that the Father calls His Son “Lord”. This means that God has called His Son both God (theos) and Lord (kurios). The Father also refers to His Son as the Creator. All things were made through Him (John 1:1, Hebrews 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-17 etc.). In these verses in Hebrews, God (theos) is speaking to God (theos). This should remind us of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7. As the apostle drew his opening remarks to a close he asks “But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” Hebrews 1:13-14

I will ask you the same question Paul asks.
To which of the angels did God say, "sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool?"

God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God. The Son is God’s person (personality) shown. As the apostle Paul said, He is the “express image” of God’s “person (substance)”, also the “image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). Christ therefore is (the invisible) God begotten (brought forth). A person cannot be the same person as he is with. Each individual person has his or her own personal identity. This is why we know that the Father is not the Son; also that the Son is not the Father; yet in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). In Christ we behold the Father (John 14:9-11)

The apostle Paul describes Christ as “the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1:24, see also 2:1-8). Solomon says wisdom was “brought forth” (Proverbs 8:24:25). Only God can be “brought forth” of God. Anything that is not “brought forth” of God is created (a part of creation). Christ was not created. He is begotten. This is why He is Son (Hebrews 1:2). This is also why the Father is God and the Son is God yet they each have a personal identity of their own. As we noted above, Christ is the express image of God’s person (Hebrews 1:3). This is because He is God from God. He is God’s person (personality) made visible. In Christ we behold God in the person of the Son. Here though is where we need to remember the words of Jesus contained in that beautiful prayer to His Father.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” John 17:3 Christ refers to His Father as “the only true God”. He did not say though that He, as God’s Son, was not God, neither did He say that only His Father is God or only His Father should be called God. He is simply referring to His Father as the great source of all. Christ is also saying of Himself that He, as a Son, is a distinct individual from His Father.

 

[Brakelite]

BTW, I haven't forgotten what this thread was originally all about. The political hunger games of the evangelical right. Still interested in hearing people's thoughts on this and their biblical justification for it's existence.

 

[bbyrd009]

You can basically find two types of Muslim in the world.
One, the radical. He believes everything Islam, believers the only way to spread "the faith" is through politics and/or force.
The other type of Muslim is the one who fervently believes in his faith, believes that prayer and devotion to peace is the right way to interpret the Koran, lives his life with respect to others in business and personal life.
There are two types of Catholic in the world. They follow the same pattern as above. The force aspect of the political Catholic is not so apparent in the western world, however there are many who firmly believe that force ought to be applied should the circumstances be appropriate or legal. There are many Catholic groups in various parts of the world who have even qurite recently waged war on other faiths, just as Islam has.
I don't think the above is all that controversial. I think most of us are aware that those two basic paradigms do indeed exist within those faiths, with of course many individuals who would be somewhere in between. The controversial part lies here....
Are there developing within evangelicalism, that divide? Is evangelicalism being radicalized? Is evangelism in all three faith paradigms now sharing some similar characteristics and traits that reflect the increasing marginalisation of society and the trend toward compulsion on so many fronts? And finally, is that trend, especially within evangelicalism in America, fulfilling prophecy?

i liked it already

as has already been memed i guess, "when fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and waving a cross" or something similar?

 

[Aunty Jane]

wow, you have conjured quiet a story AJ.....and what you say, 'Joining the dots can lead you in many directions if you don’t know what dots to join' is pertinent. The imagination it seems knows no bounds.

Yes...I noticed that you have a vivid one yourself......

 

[Aunty Jane]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness . God was manifest in the flesh ....................
I do believe that is how timothy chapter three verse sixteen begins .
And it aligns perfectly with what JOHN wrote in His gospel about the WORD .

Don't tell me, let me guess.....that is the KJV version of that verse, and all the KJV proponents will jump up and praise the Lord for revealing Jesus as God.....right?

Sorry to burst your bubble but there is no "God" in that verse. This is talking about Christ not God. It is speaking about "godliness" which Jesus had in spades.....Get yourself a modern English Bible because that KJV is a travesty of error.

ASV..."And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory."

Mounce Interlinear..."And undeniably great is the mystery of godliness, who was revealed in flesh, was vindicated in spirit, appeared to angels; was preached among the nations, was believed in the world, was taken up in glory."

NASB..."Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory."

RSV..."Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."

NLT..."Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory."

 

[Aunty Jane]

Covered this? You certainly did. Obscured it entirely by omitting half the verse.

Nope, covered it all.

Controversial... Hence debate forum.

You are rehashing.....what's the point?

I will ask you the same question Paul asks.
To which of the angels did God say, "sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool?"

The answer is none.....you know why? Because the pre-human Jesus was no ordinary "angel". If you know what an angel is you will know that they have rank.....messengers, cherubs, seraphs and the Archangel Michael...the Commander in Chief of the angelic forces. Only two persons in scripture have command of the angels...Jesus and Michael, which is why we believe that they are one and the same person. Jesus has more than one name.....Jehovah doesn't. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus ever called Jehovah.

This is why we know that the Father is not the Son; also that the Son is not the Father; yet in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). In Christ we behold the Father (John 14:9-11)

You do understand how ridiculous people sound when they try to explain something that is incomprehensible? There is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible...the trinitarians made it up, along with "God the Son" and "God the Holy Ghost"....non existent deities.

Christ was not created. He is begotten. This is why He is Son (Hebrews 1:2). This is also why the Father is God and the Son is God yet they each have a personal identity of their own. As we noted above, Christ is the express image of God’s person (Hebrews 1:3). This is because He is God from God. He is God’s person (personality) made visible. In Christ we behold God in the person of the Son. Here though is where we need to remember the words of Jesus contained in that beautiful prayer to His Father.

Rehashing. Been there done that. "Begotten" is used elsewhere in the Bible and is not a word that is used exclusively for Jesus. Those who are "begotten" need a 'begetter' who existed before them and caused their existence.
Nowhere does it ever say that Jesus is "God from God"...where the heck are you getting this stuff?

The Father and Son have a relationship that is self explanatory....why bother calling themselves "Father and Son" if that is not their relationship? If Jesus was God and the holy spirit is a third person in a godhead, then why are the scriptures silent about that? Why does it have to be read into verses that do not say anything of the sort.

The KJV is your problem....not mine. The interpretation is appalling IMV. If you want to believe the rendering of that flawed translation, go ahead. That is your choice.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” John 17:3 Christ refers to His Father as “the only true God”. He did not say though that He, as God’s Son, was not God, neither did He say that only His Father is God or only His Father should be called God. He is simply referring to His Father as the great source of all. Christ is also saying of Himself that He, as a Son, is a distinct individual from His Father.

Wow.....now that is some bit of scripture twisting there ....not to mention that it does not make a lick of sense.....if there is only "one true God" and Jesus did not include himself in that definition, then why are trinitarians continually forcing scripture to say what it never did. One part of God sent an equal part of himself to die as a human on earth.....but God cannot die. Humans cannot kill God. Jesus was "sent" by his Father to die a sacrificial death, because he is not God....its really that simple.