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Aunty Jane

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Which version of the 'trinity' do that 98% accept?
If they do not all believe the same things then it can't be true. There are not several 'beliefs' about the nature of God that are all right....but they could all be wrong. What if the 2% are the "few" who got it right?
dunno


From my observation on this board, a small microcosm it must be admitted, there are about 3 versions of the trinity, and as many versions of something else, all equally shared and divided among the members. In fact, I think if you asked each member privately, hardly one member would agree on any version, and no-one would be able to adequately explain why they believe what they do, and even less teach anytime else what they believe so that they could understand it. That's the thing about the Godhead. It's infinitely unfathomable.
That is a poor excuse for misunderstanding what Christ and his apostles taught about the Father and his relationship with his son. There is no such thing as a "godhead" in the Bible...its a made up word to imply a trinity...like the term "Holy Ghost" is meant to portray God's spirit as some kind of entity. God is not three. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

God hasn't explained Himself in scripture. But what we do know... What He has revealed... We can take to the bank.
On the contrary, I believe that God has explained himself very well in the scriptures.
Jesus said....“He that has seen me has seen the Father also”, so this is not Jesus saying that he is God, but that he is so LIKE his Father that, whatever the Father does, the son does in like manner.....like Father like Son....they are separate entities. One is "the only true God" and the other was "sent" by him. (John 17:3)

All we need to do is to read the scriptures and see what “version” of the truth Jesus taught. Are there many versions of the truth...or just one?

When we read 1 Corinthians 1:10 and realise that all "must speak in agreement with no divisions"......where does that leave all the people that you described? Does God's spirit speak with a forked tongue?
Does it tell one truth to all, or does it dish out different beliefs to whomever it wishes? You tell me....
wacko


And the most important aspect about God is this...
KJV 1 John 5:5, 9-13
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
What does it mean to "believe" (James 2:19) and what if the things you have been led to "believe" about God and his son are not true? What then?
 
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JohnPaul

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Jesus said He and the father are one, and said He who has seen Him has seen the father.

Your trying to use your intellect to analyze what God can, or cannot be, is like a bacteria trying to understand and define a man.

What is, IS as they say. That Elohim is a plural name for god and not singular, is a fact, whether it fits your ideas about God, or not.
No I am just going by what I read.
 
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Aunty Jane

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KJV Hebrews 1:1-9
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Cringing at the KJV's rendering here as I usually do. Who speaks like that these days?...and why are people so stuck in the past with their Bible translations? Ugggh. :confused:

Let's try it from the NET...(picked at random)
"After God spoke long ago in various portions and in various ways to our ancestors through the prophets, 2 in these last days he has spoken to us in a son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world. 3 The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 Thus he became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs.

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my son! Today I have fathered you”? And in another place he says, “I will be his father and he will be my son.” 6 But when he again brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him!” 7 And he says of the angels, “He makes his angels winds and his ministers a flame of fire,” 8 but of the Son he says,

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.
So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing.”


That's a little better....but still not quite accurate.
So what is this telling us...verse by verse...?
1) God spoke by his prophets in ancient times, but 'in these last days, he has spoken by his son', whom he "appointed heir of all things"
Now if Jesus is God, how is he an "heir" of what is already his?

2) We know that God used his son as the agency "through" whom all things were created, including the angels. (Colossians 1:15-17)

3) The son is a reflection of the glory of his Father....and after he had sacrificed his life, he sat down at God's right hand in heaven. Why is there never a mention of the holy spirit at his left hand? In fact why is the HS left out of important verses? (John 17:3; 2 Corinthians 8:5-6)

4) Thus the son "became" better than the angels, and inherited a name superior to theirs. If he was God incarnate, how is this possible?

5) Did he ever say anything like that to the angels who were created by his son? How could he?

6) "When he again brings his firstborn into the world, all the angels are to worship" (proskyneō) him. Is this worship or obeisance?
According to Strongs, proskyneō means....
  1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

  2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

  3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication"
Is that worship? No! When did Jews or Christians worship God like that? That is something we see in Islam.

Since Jesus is not God incarnate (and no Jew ever believed he was) it is right and proper for all creation to do obeisance to this son of God...both humans and angels.

7) He makes his angels "spirits" or "wind" as this translation renders it? Its the same word.

8/9) Paul is quoting OT scripture. Psalm 45:6-7 is addressed to a human king.
The NET renders that verse...."Your throne, O God, is permanent.
"The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice.
7 You loved justice and hate evil.
For this reason God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of joy, elevating you above your companions."

This is talking about God's throne, shared with his son; (Revelation 3:21) it's about God's everlasting rulership by his anointed one....."God your God" is talking about God's anointed Messiah.
 
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Aunty Jane

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KJV Colossians 1:13-22
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Read that again and see that it does not say what you think it does....he is the "image" of his God..."the firstborn of every creature"...making his son a creation, not a deity. (Revelation 3:14)

The biggest mistake we can make is to reduce or rationalize what the Son means to His Father, Who the Son is, and the incredible eternal risk that they both took in redeeming man from the prison house of sin.
God sent his son to do what he trusted no other to carry out. The future of the entire human race depended on him fulfilling his mission. He did not let them or his Father down.

Mount Moriah and what took place there with Abraham and Isaac... The very spot of the future temple... Was a type of what took place on Calvary. A sacrifice of both Father and Son. Not a make believe son, created it adopted, but a Son in the absolute highest sense. We believe anything less than that... We miss the entire point of the plan of redemption.
The self sacrificing love of God on behalf of man.
Yes, God made an illustration of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his own son just because his God asked him to. That is the kind of faith this man had....not to mention the son's willingness to be sacrificed without either knowing the reason or that a prophetic illustration was being made. But Abraham was not asked to sacrifice himself, he was willing to sacrifice his son, which was much more difficult.Hebrews 11:17-19 gives us his reasoning, since all of God's promises for his Messiah had to come through Isaac.

If we make God into a trinity, we lose sight of exactly what redemption means. Redemption was a set price for the release of a slave or servant from his servitude. No more and no less was required. What Jesus came to pay for was the sin and death that Adam had brought upon his children. A perfect human brought sin into the world (Romans 5:12) and only the sacrifice of an equally perfect human could pay the redemption price. Jesus did not need to be God to do that.....he just needed to be sinless. If God became a man and died, not only was this impossible, (since God is immortal and cannot die...nor can mere mortals kill him) but it would have been a ridiculous overpayment. Something like 500 trillion cans of bug spray to kill one one mosquito.

Anyone who understands what redemption meant in Israel would never assume that God himself needed to become like his own creation.....and die. That is ridiculous, and is not what is taught in scripture at all. It came with the trinity, hundreds of years after Jesus' death.
 

JohnPaul

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Read that again and see that it does not say what you think it does....he is the "image" of his God..."the firstborn of every creature"...making his son a creation, not a deity. (Revelation 3:14)


God sent his son to do what he trusted no other to carry out. The future of the entire human race depended on him fulfilling his mission. He did not let them or his Father down.


Yes, God made an illustration of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his own son just because his God asked him to. That is the kind of faith this man had....not to mention the son's willingness to be sacrificed without either knowing the reason or that a prophetic illustration was being made. But Abraham was not asked to sacrifice himself, he was willing to sacrifice his son, which was much more difficult.Hebrews 11:17-19 gives us his reasoning, since all of God's promises for his Messiah had to come through Isaac.

If we make God into a trinity, we lose sight of exactly what redemption means. Redemption was a set price for the release of a slave or servant from his servitude. No more and no less was required. What Jesus came to pay for was the sin and death that Adam had brought upon his children. A perfect human brought sin into the world (Romans 5:12) and only the sacrifice of an equally perfect human could pay the redemption price. Jesus did not need to be God to do that.....he just needed to be sinless. If God became a man and died, not only was this impossible, (since God is immortal and cannot die...nor can mere mortals kill him) but it would have been a ridiculous overpayment. Something like 500 trillion cans of bug spray to kill one one mosquito.

Anyone who understands what redemption meant in Israel would never assume that God himself needed to become like his own creation.....and die. That is ridiculous, and is not what is taught in scripture at all. It came with the trinity, hundreds of years after Jesus' death.
Well Said Aunty Jane, people will make their own interpretations instead of following what is actually written, it's like talking to a brick wall.
 
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Curtis

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If they do not all believe the same things then it can't be true. There are not several 'beliefs' about the nature of God that are all right....but they could all be wrong. What if the 2% are the "few" who got it right?
dunno



That is a poor excuse for misunderstanding what Christ and his apostles taught about the Father and his relationship with his son. There is no such thing as a "godhead" in the Bible...its a made up word to imply a trinity...like the term "Holy Ghost" is meant to portray God's spirit as some kind of entity. God is not three. (Deuteronomy 6:4)


On the contrary, I believe that God has explained himself very well in the scriptures.
Jesus said....“He that has seen me has seen the Father also”, so this is not Jesus saying that he is God, but that he is so LIKE his Father that, whatever the Father does, the son does in like manner.....like Father like Son....they are separate entities. One is "the only true God" and the other was "sent" by him. (John 17:3)

All we need to do is to read the scriptures and see what “version” of the truth Jesus taught. Are there many versions of the truth...or just one?

When we read 1 Corinthians 1:10 and realise that all "must speak in agreement with no divisions"......where does that leave all the people that you described? Does God's spirit speak with a forked tongue?
Does it tell one truth to all, or does it dish out different beliefs to whomever it wishes? You tell me....
wacko



What does it mean to "believe" (James 2:19) and what if the things you have been led to "believe" about God and his son are not true? What then?
The trinity in the apostles creed is right.

Romans 8 confirms the spirit of Christ and spirit of God are one in nature.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Fortunately the deeper knowledge of the fact of the triune Godhead is not a salvation requirement.

But belief Jesus rose bodily is.
 
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Aunty Jane

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The trinity in the apostles creed is right.
The apostle's creed is not found in the Bible.

Romans 8 confirms the spirit of Christ and spirit of God are one in nature.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Fortunately the deeper knowledge of the fact of the triune Godhead is not a salvation requirement.
As I said, you are free to believe whatever you wish....this is addressed to the elect.

But belief Jesus rose bodily is.
No sorry, we have already been through this.....Jesus did not rise in a body of flesh.....he was raised in a spirit body in order to return to the spirit realm.....that is where he came from. The scripture you provided does not mention a body of flesh.
 

JohnPaul

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The apostle's creed is not found in the Bible.


As I said, you are free to believe whatever you wish....this is addressed to the elect.


No sorry, we have already been through this.....Jesus did not rise in a body of flesh.....he was raised in a spirit body in order to return to the spirit realm.....that is where he came from. The scripture you provided does not mention a body of flesh.
A question Aunty Jane, I'm not trying to contradict what you are saying, but couldn't Jesus have risen in bodily form to see his disciples and then turn into spirit form to Ascend to Heaven?
 

quietthinker

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The apostle's creed is not found in the Bible.


As I said, you are free to believe whatever you wish....this is addressed to the elect.


No sorry, we have already been through this.....Jesus did not rise in a body of flesh.....he was raised in a spirit body in order to return to the spirit realm.....that is where he came from. The scripture you provided does not mention a body of flesh.
Luke 24:36-43...Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marvelled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence.

Join the dots yourself as to why he asked for food and ate it in front of them.
 

Curtis

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The apostle's creed is not found in the Bible.


As I said, you are free to believe whatever you wish....this is addressed to the elect.


No sorry, we have already been through this.....Jesus did not rise in a body of flesh.....he was raised in a spirit body in order to return to the spirit realm.....that is where he came from. The scripture you provided does not mention a body of flesh.
But the apostles are found in the Bible, and they wrote a creed, a doctrinal creed to explain what they, the apostles of Jesus Christ, teach is in the Bible.

None of the watchtower writings are in the Bible either, but you believe every word as if it’s the gospel, even though it’s clear they are in serious doctrinal error, to anyone that actually studies the Bible that is.
 
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Aunty Jane

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A question Aunty Jane, I'm not trying to contradict what you are saying, but couldn't Jesus have risen in bodily form to see his disciples and then turn into spirit form to Ascend to Heaven?
Yes, Jesus was resurrected as a spirit according to the apostle Peter. (1 Peter 3:18) Flesh and blood cannot exist outside of the earth’s atmosphere because this is where God put us to live eternally. In order to take some to heaven to rule with him in his Kingdom, Jesus and his “elect” (anointed ones) must be resurrected with spirit bodies. But like spirit beings had done in the past, angels could materialise human form to deliver their messages to God’s earthly servants. When Gabriel appeared to Daniel he was said to be a man.....as when he also appeared to Mary some 500 years later. The three angels that visited Abraham at Mamre, were in human form and they ate and drank like any other human. Two of them went on to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family. (Genesis 18)

Jesus was not always recognised when he “appeared” to his apostles and disciples after his resurrection. He even “disappeared” right before their eyes on one occasion. He appeared in a locked room as well.

That Jesus was not raised in the body he sacrificed, is clear. He would not take back what was sacrificed on the spiritual alter of God’s temple in heaven. That body, the scriptures said, would “never see corruption”, so God took Jesus’ body and disposed of it like he did with the body of Moses. Only on a couple of occasions when he wanted to convince his apostles, did he materialise a body with wounds.

Would God really raise his son with the dreadful wounds of his torture and execution? When Jesus raised the dead, they came to life fully cured of what caused their death. Jesus also healed those with physical deformities, so again why would God resurrect his precious son with the scars of his death still on him?

We also have to remember that God’s foreknowledge would see the remains of Jesus’ body treated as idols by the corrupted church to come. These relics are idolised by the church and God would have none of that. It was wide open for the devil’s corruption.

I hope that has answered your question....:)
 
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Brakelite

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Read that again and see that it does not say what you think it does....he is the "image" of his God..."the firstborn of every creature"...making his son a creation, not a deity. (Revelation 3:14)


God sent his son to do what he trusted no other to carry out. The future of the entire human race depended on him fulfilling his mission. He did not let them or his Father down.


Yes, God made an illustration of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his own son just because his God asked him to. That is the kind of faith this man had....not to mention the son's willingness to be sacrificed without either knowing the reason or that a prophetic illustration was being made. But Abraham was not asked to sacrifice himself, he was willing to sacrifice his son, which was much more difficult.Hebrews 11:17-19 gives us his reasoning, since all of God's promises for his Messiah had to come through Isaac.

If we make God into a trinity, we lose sight of exactly what redemption means. Redemption was a set price for the release of a slave or servant from his servitude. No more and no less was required. What Jesus came to pay for was the sin and death that Adam had brought upon his children. A perfect human brought sin into the world (Romans 5:12) and only the sacrifice of an equally perfect human could pay the redemption price. Jesus did not need to be God to do that.....he just needed to be sinless. If God became a man and died, not only was this impossible, (since God is immortal and cannot die...nor can mere mortals kill him) but it would have been a ridiculous overpayment. Something like 500 trillion cans of bug spray to kill one one mosquito.

Anyone who understands what redemption meant in Israel would never assume that God himself needed to become like his own creation.....and die. That is ridiculous, and is not what is taught in scripture at all. It came with the trinity, hundreds of years after Jesus' death.
You are making one huge presumption about what I believe. How do you perceive that I accept the trinity from what I wrote above?
What does it mean to "believe" (James 2:19) and what if the things you have been led to "believe" about God and his son are not true? What then?
Believe what God says. That's belief. The Father sent His Son. Two distinct entities are described here. He didn't send a created being too become a son. Jesus was already God's Son in heaven before He became a man. Why do you presume that everyone who believes in Christ's divinity believes He and the Father are one being? Why can't you accept what scripture says? Why can't you accept the fact that angels worshipped the Son without rationalizing? Firstborn of every creature is obviously meant to be understood as Christ being the source and Creator of all creatures, as described elsewhere in scripture. He was begotten of the Father. Not created.
 

Curtis

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But the apostles are found in the Bible, and they wrote a creed, a doctrinal creed to explain what they, the apostles of Jesus Christ, teach is in the Bible.

None of the watchtower writings are in the Bible either, but you believe every word as if it’s the gospel, even though it’s clear they are in serious doctrinal error, to anyone that actually studies the Bible that is.
Cognitive dissonance at work again.

1. Jesus said He would rise bodily
2.Jesus said he’s not a spirit and showed His body to the apostles and 500 others for 40 days
3. Jesus bodily and visibly ascended to heaven, on a cloud, from mount Olive, and the angel prophesied He would return exactly the same way He left
4. Revelation 1:7 says He will come on a cloud and every eye will see Him
5.in Zechariah 14:4-5 Jesus returns bodily to Mount Olive with all the saints.
6.Elijah ascended bodily to heaven, proving Jesus’ could too.
7. Paul wrote that we will see Jesus as He is, and that our resurrection bodies will be like His.
8. Thus Jesus rose bodily and visibly , He is not an invisible ghost.
 

Aunty Jane

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You are making one huge presumption about what I believe. How do you perceive that I accept the trinity from what I wrote above?
I assume that when someone believes in the trinity that they all accept the same ideas. The trinity does not come with "versions" because all versions are a distortion of everything Jesus taught. It makes no difference to me what version you accept. They are all in error according to my view because there is no teaching in the Bible that says Jesus is "ho theos" (Yahweh).

Believe what God says. That's belief.
Most of Christendom would say that, but their beliefs and practices can all be traced back to Babylon, not finding their origins in the word of God at all but in a corrupted church, hundreds of years after Christ's death.

The Father sent His Son. Two distinct entities are described here. He didn't send a created being too become a son. Jesus was already God's Son in heaven before He became a man.
Yes I know, that is what the Bible says.....but nowhere does it say that Jesus is in any way equal to his superior Father.

Why do you presume that everyone who believes in Christ's divinity believes He and the Father are one being?
Because believing Jesus to be God (with a capital "G") is the problem. Jesus can be "divine" without being "deity". In the definition of the Greek word "theos" Jesus can be "a god" but not "the God". (ho theos) He never once said he was a deity.

Why can't you accept what scripture says? Why can't you accept the fact that angels worshipped the Son without rationalizing?
Because Jesus went to great lengths to answer the devil about whom we are to worship.
Luke 4:7-8....the devil, in offering "all the kingdoms of this world" to Jesus in exchange for one act of "worship" said....
"If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.” 8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Worship belongs only to Yahweh (Jehovah).
Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 10:20 where the first Commandment (Exodus 20:3) is confirmed and the tetragrammaton is clearly seen, and where it states that Yahweh is to be worshipped and Jesus said "Him alone". To worship one who is not God (capital "G") is blasphemous.
"pro·sky·neʹo" in Greek is only rendered "worship" when it pertains to God. It is rendered "obeisance" with reference to humans.

Firstborn of every creature is obviously meant to be understood as Christ being the source and Creator of all creatures, as described elsewhere in scripture. He was begotten of the Father. Not created.
"Obviously"? Who said? The one whom the Father used to create all things is himself a creation as it states in Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14...this son is the "firstborn" meaning that there are others who are of his ilk. God has many "sons" but all of them were created by his "firstborn". The term "begotten" is used in scripture to describe those who are ordinary humans. "Only begotten" (monogenes) is the term used for an "only child". (Luke 7:12) Monogenes does not mean uncreated.
 

bbyrd009

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"it's like this and like that..."
personally id rather never eat meat again
Cognitive dissonance at work again.

1. Jesus said He would rise bodily
2.Jesus said he’s not a spirit and showed His body to the apostles and 500 others for 40 days
3. Jesus bodily and visibly ascended to heaven, on a cloud, from mount Olive, and the angel prophesied He would return exactly the same way He left
4. Revelation 1:7 says He will come on a cloud and every eye will see Him
5.in Zechariah 14:4-5 Jesus returns bodily to Mount Olive with all the saints.
6.Elijah ascended bodily to heaven, proving Jesus’ could too.
7. Paul wrote that we will see Jesus as He is, and that our resurrection bodies will be like His.
8. Thus Jesus rose bodily and visibly , He is not an invisible ghost.
ha just dont expect that to work out the way you have it in your mind imo, ok? I mean i dunno, but id keep an open mind there
"clouds" are defined elsewhere in Scripture, "every eye" is not "all eyes" prolly, etc
 

Aunty Jane

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Cognitive dissonance at work again.
Well, some of us are aware that cognitive dissonance is difficult to detect in oneself....
unsure

Let's unpack your list here.....

1. Jesus said He would rise bodily
No he did not. His reference to the "temple" was to his "body" of believers....the elect, which by his death and resurrection, paved the way for their own resurrection to heaven. His words had nothing to do with his physical body that would be sacrificed.
He didn't take it back at his resurrection because it had served its purpose.

2.Jesus said he’s not a spirit and showed His body to the apostles and 500 others for 40 days
Jesus was mindful of Jewish Law.....it was against God's Law to communicate with spirits so the angels, as well as Jesus himself materialized human bodies in order to deliver their messages to those on earth. After his resurrection, Jesus was in a different body to the one he sacrificed.

3. Jesus bodily and visibly ascended to heaven, on a cloud, from mount Olive, and the angel prophesied He would return exactly the same way He left.
You do understand that a cloud simply hid him from their view as many translations say. It was an opportunity to dematerialize without simply vanishing.

It was stated that he would return in the same "manner" as he left.....what manner was that? The fact is, the world at large was unaware of his ascension.....there was no trumpets or fanfare, and only his closest associates were aware of his return to heaven. He would return in the same manner.....which is what JW's believe. He is already here overseeing the fulfillment of his words concerning the "time of the end" in Matthew 24....he told his disciples that he would be "with them" in the preaching and disciple making work that Christendom has never done in their own backyard, as Jesus and his apostles did. (Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20)

4. Revelation 1:7 says He will come on a cloud and every eye will see Him
This is symbolic. It is impossible for people on a round planet to "see" what is happening on the other side. This is 'seeing' as in 'perceiving'. Revelation 1:7 says that "every eye will see him", including "those who pieced him"....now, how is that literal when those who pierced him are long dead? Revelation is full of symbolisms....this is no exception.

5.in Zechariah 14:4-5 Jesus returns bodily to Mount Olive with all the saints.
That would be "the Lord" mentioned there in verse 3, right.....who said it was Jesus?
Here it is in the Jewish Tanakh....vs 3-5....
"And the Lord shall go forth and wage war with those nations, like the day he waged war on the day of the battle. גוְיָצָ֣א יְהֹוָ֔ה וְנִלְחַ֖ם בַּגּוֹיִ֣ם הָהֵ֑ם כְּי֥וֹם הִלָּֽחֲמ֖וֹ בְּי֥וֹם קְרָֽב:
4 And on that day His feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem from the east. And the Mount of Olives shall split in the midst thereof-toward the east and toward the west-a very great valley. And half the mountain shall move to the north, and half of it to the south. דוְעָֽמְד֣וּ רַגְלָ֣יו בַּיּֽוֹם־הַ֠הוּא עַל־הַ֨ר הַזֵּיתִ֜ים אֲשֶׁ֨ר עַל־פְּנֵ֥י יְרֽוּשָׁלִַם֘ מִקֶּדֶם֒ וְנִבְקַע֩ הַ֨ר הַזֵּיתִ֚ים מֵֽחֶצְיוֹ֙ מִזְרָ֣חָה וָיָ֔מָּה גֵּ֖יא גְּדוֹלָ֣ה מְאֹ֑ד וּמָ֨שׁ חֲצִ֥י הָהָ֛ר צָפ֖וֹנָה וְחֶצְיוֹ־נֶֽגְבָּה:

Who is "the LORD" in verse 3? יְהֹוָ֔ה
That is Yahweh (Jehovah) not Jesus.

6.Elijah ascended bodily to heaven, proving Jesus’ could too.
No sorry, Elijah was "taken up", but he was not taken to heaven, but simply transferred to another location where he penned a letter to the King of Judah. (2 Chronicles 21:12-15)
John 3:13 says that 'no one went to heaven before Jesus'....so Elijah did not go to heaven and neither did Enoch.

7. Paul wrote that we will see Jesus as He is, and that our resurrection bodies will be like His.
That depends on who the "we" and "our" is. Only the elect will experience a spiritual resurrection.....that is how they are "born again".

8. Thus Jesus rose bodily and visibly , He is not an invisible ghost.
No one said he was an "invisible ghost", since there is no such thing.

But, as Paul said there are different kinds of bodies....
1 Corinthians 15:39-45....
"39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of mankind, another flesh of animals, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written: “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy one, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly one, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly."
(NASB)

The "we" in this passage is the elect. This is what it means to be "born again"....they are transformed into spirit beings in order to exist in the presence of God....otherwise they would not survive the experience.
Exodus 33:20....God said"....“You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

You don't seem to study outside of just reading you KJV....or whatever Bible it is that you prefer.....I think you need to widen out....do some original word studies because you appear to be stuck in a cramped and dark place. Let a little light in.....
 

Curtis

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Yes, Jesus was resurrected as a spirit according to the apostle Peter. (1 Peter 3:18) Flesh and blood cannot exist outside of the earth’s atmosphere because this is where God put us to live eternally. In order to take some to heaven to rule with him in his Kingdom, Jesus and his “elect” (anointed ones) must be resurrected with spirit bodies. But like spirit beings had done in the past, angels could materialise human form to deliver their messages to God’s earthly servants. When Gabriel appeared to Daniel he was said to be a man.....as when he also appeared to Mary some 500 years later. The three angels that visited Abraham at Mamre, were in human form and they ate and drank like any other human. Two of them went on to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family. (Genesis 18)

Jesus was not always recognised when he “appeared” to his apostles and disciples after his resurrection. He even “disappeared” right before their eyes on one occasion. He appeared in a locked room as well.

That Jesus was not raised in the body he sacrificed, is clear. He would not take back what was sacrificed on the spiritual alter of God’s temple in heaven. That body, the scriptures said, would “never see corruption”, so God took Jesus’ body and disposed of it like he did with the body of Moses. Only on a couple of occasions when he wanted to convince his apostles, did he materialise a body with wounds.

Would God really raise his son with the dreadful wounds of his torture and execution? When Jesus raised the dead, they came to life fully cured of what caused their death. Jesus also healed those with physical deformities, so again why would God resurrect his precious son with the scars of his death still on him?

We also have to remember that God’s foreknowledge would see the remains of Jesus’ body treated as idols by the corrupted church to come. These relics are idolised by the church and God would have none of that. It was wide open for the devil’s corruption.

I hope that has answered your question....:)
The problem with that scenario is it makes Jesus a liar, because He said He wasn’t a spirit - and said a spirit has no t flesh and bones as you see I have - and had the apostles touch Him, and then ate a meal to prove it.

And since spirits can’t die, they aren’t ever resurrected.
 
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Curtis

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Yes, Jesus was resurrected as a spirit according to the apostle Peter. (1 Peter 3:18) Flesh and blood cannot exist outside of the earth’s atmosphere because this is where God put us to live eternally. In order to take some to heaven to rule with him in his Kingdom, Jesus and his “elect” (anointed ones) must be resurrected with spirit bodies.

This reply to another post covers the watchtower claims.

(Also it’s clear Elijah was taken bodily to heaven without dying, establishing biblical precedent).

And scripture says that without the shedding of blood is no remission of sin:

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Jesus shed His blood for the remission of our sins, and rose in a body without blood, saying His body was flesh and BONES, instead of flesh and blood - Luke 24:39 - thus if what Jesus sacrificed for us has to remain gone, He didn’t take back His blood, but still rose in a physical body.

This negates the watchtower claim that His body had to disappear without resurrection because He gave His BODY for remission of sins - because its His blood that did it
 
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