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Brakelite

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And who may those descendants of the Knights Templar be that rule the world today, if they were captured and killed by the French King who didn't want them to have more power and money than him?
Well, that's a very long story and not one for this thread, it was only an off the cuff remark to simply put out there that the mechanisms and organisations that the Templars once ruled, are still around only in another firm, and they are still ruled by the same class, with the same social and hierarchy above. They rule the world financially, in as much as your local bank manager rules your funds. But the modern day version of the Templars do have a boss, and others rule the world in other areas, such as education, religion, politics, and the military. And all the bosses of those departments are under the authority of the same boss. They are high up the pyramid, but others are at the top. Some on this forum know who and what organizations I'm talking about. Some would disagree. But the information is out there, one just had to dig a little. Oh, and BTW. just an FYI, the spiritual/religious side to the above pyramid is not protestant, but had through some of us agents, infiltrated and adversely affected protestant institutions, such as Bible colleges and universities.
And I would express no surprise if they are behind the current move into politics by the evangelical movement. In fact, from what I know of them, I would expect it. Evidence of course for such a scenario would be very difficult to come by. So don't ask.
 

Brakelite

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So. The question is still open. Can anyone here please adequately defend the movement into politics by the church? (I have no issue with individual Christians becoming politicians so long as they live up their testimony). How can you defend it in light of statements and warnings from your own founding fathers against church involvement in politics?
 

Curtis

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So much for being "no part of the world" (John 18:36).....the kingdom of God will not come by human efforts.
If you believe that God is in control, then why does he need us to do anything but preach the Kingdom message as Jesus instructed?

It is a message of peace, not war. Jesus never once rose up against the Roman government that was oppressing his people.
When he and his apostles were arrested, it was for preaching...not breaking the law by inciting to violence. They offered no resistance, but relied on God to see them through any trial. It doesn't matter who the President or the Prime Minister is, or isn't.....this is God's fight, not ours.

John 17:14-18...
"I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I am not asking You to take them out of the world, but to keep them away from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 Just as You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world."

What the world is doing is what God has already foretold....its going to happen and its none of our business.
Christians have no nationality, and therefore cannot be patriots who will resort to violence to get their point across.
Whipping people up emotionally is not Christianity.

Live and let God.....
Not being of the world simply means not living a sinful, carnal lifestyle.

It does not mean sticking your head in the sand and not voting for, or help elect, the best people possible, who affect the entire nation in the offices they hold, and let far left, radical, communist, amoral politicians take over the country, for one example.

That’s biblically known as being in the world, but not being part of worldly immorality.

Jesus commended a Roman soldiers faith. He did not tell that centurion he was sinning by being a soldier, and that he must resign.
 
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Lambano

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So. The question is still open. Can anyone here please adequately defend the movement into politics by the church? (I have no issue with individual Christians becoming politicians so long as they live up their testimony). How can you defend it in light of statements and warnings from your own founding fathers against church involvement in politics?

When we say, "Jesus is Lord!", we are also saying, "... and Caesar is not!

And that is very political.
 
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Curtis

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So. The question is still open. Can anyone here please adequately defend the movement into politics by the church? (I have no issue with individual Christians becoming politicians so long as they live up their testimony). How can you defend it in light of statements and warnings from your own founding fathers against church involvement in politics?

Our founding fathers were so against mixing religion and politics that congress from the beginning has a federally paid Christian chaplain, who opens each session with prayer, put Christian chaplains in each branch of the military, and had church services in the capitol and treasury buildings, and put multiple depictions of the ten commands throughout the Supreme Court, and swore the first President, and every subsequent president in on a bible, with an oath to God..
In addition:
  • in 1853, the United States Senate declared that the Founding Fathers “had no fear or jealousy of religion itself, nor did they wish to see us an irreligious people . . . they did not intend to spread over all the public authorities and the whole public action of the nation the dead and revolting spectacle of atheistical apathy”;
  • in 1854, the United States House of Representatives declared “It [religion] must be considered as the foundation on which the whole structure rests … Christianity; in its general principles, is the great conservative element on which we must rely for the purity and permanence of free institutions”;
  • in 1864, by law Congress added “In God We Trust” to American coinage;
  • in 1870, the Federal Government made Christmas (a recognition of the birth of Christ, an event described by the U.S. Supreme Court as “acknowledged in the Western World for 20 centuries, and in this country by the people, the Executive Branch, Congress, and the courts for 2 centuries”) and Thanksgiving official federal holidays
 
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Curtis

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When we say, "Jesus is Lord!", we are also saying, "... and Caesar is not!

And that is very political.
As they said during the revolutionary war: praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!
 
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Brakelite

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Our founding fathers were so against mixing religion and politics that congress from the beginning has a federally paid Christian chaplain, who opens each session with prayer, put Christian chaplains in each branch of the military, and had church services in the capitol and treasury buildings, and put multiple depictions of the ten commands throughout the Supreme Court, and swore the first President, and every subsequent president in on a bible, with an oath to God..
In addition:
  • in 1853, the United States Senate declared that the Founding Fathers “had no fear or jealousy of religion itself, nor did they wish to see us an irreligious people . . . they did not intend to spread over all the public authorities and the whole public action of the nation the dead and revolting spectacle of atheistical apathy”;
  • in 1854, the United States House of Representatives declared “It [religion] must be considered as the foundation on which the whole structure rests … Christianity; in its general principles, is the great conservative element on which we must rely for the purity and permanence of free institutions”;
  • in 1864, by law Congress added “In God We Trust” to American coinage;
  • in 1870, the Federal Government made Christmas (a recognition of the birth of Christ, an event described by the U.S. Supreme Court as “acknowledged in the Western World for 20 centuries, and in this country by the people, the Executive Branch, Congress, and the courts for 2 centuries”) and Thanksgiving official federal holidays
None of that I disagree with. Like I said, I have no issue with individual Christians taking up politics in order to fulfill what they believe it's their life's career choice. Using their God given talents within government to make a difference.
I'm surprised you brought up chaplaincy as an argument for Christian involvement in politics. For goodness sake, you aren't really reading my posts are you. Your entire post is strawman.
Please either read my posts again, it take my statement here as my focus of debate...
Should the church get involved in politics??? I would remind you of my quote previously from James Madison which in far better language than mine, does in reality reflect my concern... Strawman arguments just serve to strengthen my suspicions, and feed my concerns.
QUOTE....
“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?”
James Madison. Please note. Madison is not speaking about individual Christians working in government. That's not what he was warning about.
 

Brakelite

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When we say, "Jesus is Lord!", we are also saying, "... and Caesar is not!

And that is very political.
The problem is not with individual Christians saying Jesus is Lord, and working for the government, or even being involved as a politician. We could have done with many more men like Dr. Ben Carson. Nor is the problem with people who have no religious affiliations or biases whatsoever, but who declare Caesar as Lord, believing government can accomplish what religions cannot.
No, the danger and potential disaster is when y the church, as an institution or movement, such as evangelicalism, gets involved in politics, proclaims Jesus is Lord but appeals to government to pass legislation on her behalf? That's where the constitution becomes a worthless piece of paper.
 

Curtis

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None of that I disagree with. Like I said, I have no issue with individual Christians taking up politics in order to fulfill what they believe it's their life's career choice. Using their God given talents within government to make a difference.
I'm surprised you brought up chaplaincy as an argument for Christian involvement in politics. For goodness sake, you aren't really reading my posts are you. Your entire post is strawman.
Please either read my posts again, it take my statement here as my focus of debate...
Should the church get involved in politics??? I would remind you of my quote previously from James Madison which in far better language than mine, does in reality reflect my concern... Strawman arguments just serve to strengthen my suspicions, and feed my concerns.
QUOTE....
James Madison. Please note. Madison is not speaking about individual Christians working in government. That's not what he was warning about.
The founders were mostly Christians- they would have laugh3d at you for asking if Christians should be involved in politics.
 

JohnPaul

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Well, that's a very long story and not one for this thread, it was only an off the cuff remark to simply put out there that the mechanisms and organisations that the Templars once ruled, are still around only in another firm, and they are still ruled by the same class, with the same social and hierarchy above. They rule the world financially, in as much as your local bank manager rules your funds. But the modern day version of the Templars do have a boss, and others rule the world in other areas, such as education, religion, politics, and the military. And all the bosses of those departments are under the authority of the same boss. They are high up the pyramid, but others are at the top. Some on this forum know who and what organizations I'm talking about. Some would disagree. But the information is out there, one just had to dig a little. Oh, and BTW. just an FYI, the spiritual/religious side to the above pyramid is not protestant, but had through some of us agents, infiltrated and adversely affected protestant institutions, such as Bible colleges and universities.
And I would express no surprise if they are behind the current move into politics by the evangelical movement. In fact, from what I know of them, I would expect it. Evidence of course for such a scenario would be very difficult to come by. So don't ask.
Sounds like you are talking about the Rothschilds, who are Jews and nothing to do with the Templars.
 

JohnPaul

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meh, lived over there for a while; they’re just people, mostly disaffected maybe, easy to take advantage of. They do seem to make better Christians than us, broadly speaking

funny you put it that way though; its you i have sympathy for
and getting their hinies handed to them lol

so, if a bunch of Muslims invaded the US, thats what that would be too right, defense against tyrannical Christians? We stole N America from Tyrannical Indians?

you forgot about the part where they were welcomed by Muslims, until the Templars got involved

i feel for you ok jp, but you are warped with hate and fear and im not going to respond to any more of your posts
Thank you, Mohamed for I shall put you on ignore its obvious you are a Muslim pretending to be a Christian.
 

JohnPaul

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Yes.....and not many are aware of what clever propaganda fed to the people via their media on a regular basis, can accomplish. People's perceptions are carefully managed so that sympathies will be scant if there is a conflict.

Looked what happened with 9/11....they were looking for an excuse to take out Saddam Hussein and get their hands on his oil, so they somehow made Bin Laden the scapegoat, but went to war with an entirely different country. How many Americans had no idea? How many just believed what the media told them. It pays to know who owns and controls the media.

@Aunty Jane , how was Bin Laden made a scapegoat if he was the Mastermind behind 9/11, just curious how you came to that conclusion? He was head of Al Qaeda and ordered those terrorist attacks on September 11 2001.

The Iraq war I was against, Bush Jr. he just had it in for Saddam who had put a price on his father's head who was involved in the first Gulf War, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or weapons of mass destruction, it was just an excuse for Bush Jr. to go after Saddam, which destabilized the Middle East region, which Saddam kept extremists out and that region more peaceful.
 
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Brakelite

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The founders were mostly Christians- they would have laugh3d at you for asking if Christians should be involved in politics.
You are still not getting it...
The problem is not with individual Christians saying Jesus is Lord, and working for the government, or even being involved as a politician.
No, the danger and potential disaster is when y the church, as an institution or movement, such as evangelicalism, gets involved in politics,
So. Your post above... Another strawman.
 

Brakelite

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Sounds like you are talking about the Rothschilds, who are Jews and nothing to do with the Templars.
While the Templars themselves as an order may have been disbanded, what happened to their wealth? They were the equivalent to international bankers in their day, and predecessors to the Medicis. Their wealth actually ended up in possession of their fellow Jerusalem order, the Knights of St John, later to become a military order, the Knights of Malta, who answer to the Jesuits. Do a little investigation to see who are present Knights of Malta. And yes, Rothschild is one.
 

Ziggy

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Bin Laden was a CIA operative.
The attack on the twin towers was designed by and for the US to go to war with Iraq to control the oil.
Now we have Ukraine.
What did Biden do? He told Putin it was good to go and finish that pipeline.
We don't have to do it, we let Putin do it.
Now we want that pipeline.
Hence, war between Russia and Ukraine and we are smack dab in the middle again.

Once upon a time we lived without oil, without gas, and without electricity.
The day they control the sun, the air, and the water is the day it's all over.

Oh wait, they already control the water.. right California?
Oh wait, they're tying to control the air with mask mandates and carbon taxes.
Oh Wait, they been spraying aluminum and Barium in the air for years trying to block out the sun.

Say it isn't so!!

These people are EVIL.
Seriously.. EVIL incarnate. They walk among us. They look like us, But they are not us.

And right now they control what you eat, what you wear, where you live, and trying to control what you think and how you feel.

We are witnessing the works of Satan in this present world.
But his time is short. And he knows it.

Stand Strong!
Hold the Line!
God Wins!
Hugs
 

Ziggy

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Why did Jesus come into the world? Was it to meddle in politics? No....the "times of the Gentiles" had not run their course, (Luke 21:24) so Jesus did not interfere with the political situation, even though his people were oppressed by the Roman Empire. Daniel had prophesied that Rome would be followed by another world power which turned out to be Britannia and who was later reunited with her wayward sons in America to form the Anglo-American alliance......"in the time of the end". "The end" was to come in the days of those final "kings". (Daniel 2:44)

Jesus was sent to teach, (John 7:15-16) to correct the wrong doctrines of the Pharisees, (Matthew 15:7-9) and to gather his disciples in preparation for the institution of a new covenant, long ago prophesied by Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 31:31-32)

Just as God sent Jesus into the world to preach about God's Kingdom, (not to support man's kingdoms. John 18:36) so too Jesus sent his disciples out into the world to do a work greater than his own..."to the most distant part of the earth". (John 14:12; Acts 1:8)

So the world's rulership in the hands of God's adversary (1 John 5:19) was not to be opposed or interfered with in any way by Christ's disciples. Those who want to interfere are proving that they are not taught by Christ at all.

We have one job.....as Paul said in his second letter to Timothy....
"preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; correct, rebuke, and exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But as for you, use self-restraint in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."

That's it.....we don't need people to whip us up emotionally...that was never in the instructions.
Jesus began a grassroots movement to oppose the religious politics of the day.
Not with swords and weapons made by men, but with the word of God.
Which is more powerful than any two edged sword, Amen?

Our responsibility is no less. We are still that grassroots movement. And we are to oppose evil wherever it resides.
Even if we have to stand before congress (Pharisees) or the Judicial System (Saducees) or even the Presidents of the world (Caesars) .
We aught to obey God rather than men, even if that means dying for your faith.

And we aught to be unhypnotizing the world from their propaganda and control.
But many like sheep have gone astray wagging their tail behind them.
Christ died for Truth.
We aught to take up our cross and follow him.

You remember when the authorities asked, why don't your disciples wash before eating?

Fast forward to today.. why don't your disciples wear masks, get jabbed, stay in their homes, be fearful of what we tell them to do?

History never changes only the names and faces do.

We need to stand against those that do harm to others by teaching others how to stand for themselves.
That's what the disciples were teaching. How to think for yourself, and follow God rather than man.

They are taking away our ability to raise our children. To have a voice in what they are taught.
If we don't stand up for them, who will?

There are going to be a lot of millstones hanging on a lot of necks, that's all I can say.
Crimes against humanity... wait till the truth comes out about the jab and the genocide they are bringing on the world.
Fear mongering? No
Truth? Always.
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Brakelite

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Thank you, Mohamed for I shall put you on ignore its obvious you are a Muslim pretending to be a Christian.
If that is how you treat those you perceive as your enemy, how will they hear the gospel? How will they experience the love of Jesus? Or are Muslims excluded from hearing the gospel?
 

JohnPaul

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If that is how you treat those you perceive as your enemy, how will they hear the gospel? How will they experience the love of Jesus? Or are Muslims excluded from hearing the gospel?
You really think Muslims want to hear the gospel? Try it and see if you make it home with your head on your shoulders.
 

Aunty Jane

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Not being of the world simply means not living a sinful, carnal lifestyle.
Actually Jesus was speaking about his kingdom, which is a governmental arrangement with himself as its appointed king.
A "kingdom" is a "king" and the "dom"ain over which he rules. He said that his kingdom was "no part of this world". (John 18:36)
Jesus' own example proves that he was not there to meddle in the politics of the day because the "Times of the Gentiles" had not yet been completed. Only then would he intervene on his Father's behalf and bring about justice for his oppressed and persecuted disciples. (John 15:18-21)
The coming of this kingdom would see all flawed and corrupt human rulership "crushed" out of existence. (Daniel 2:44) Will you be voting for these ones?

It does not mean sticking your head in the sand and not voting for, or help elect, the best people possible, who affect the entire nation in the offices they hold, and let far left, radical, communist, amoral politicians take over the country, for one example.
I think you are forgetting who controls the world and through whom he does so......satan offered Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world", so how could that actually be a temptation if they were not his to give? Jesus did not refute his claim but simply told him that God alone was to be worshipped. (Luke 4:5-8)

So, we are to be NO PART of that world....the one alienated from God and under the control of the devil. (1 John 5:19)

Voting for human rulers means that you have to accept responsibility for what they do because you helped to put them there.
Being "NO PART of the world" means exactly what Jesus said and he showed us what that meant.....no political meddling, obedience to the ruling authorities as long as it it did not contravene God's laws, and being a good law-abiding citizen, not a political 'rebel' but a political 'neutral'. The ruling authorities should have no fingers to point at Christ's disciples who do not incite others except to be "peaceful with all men" and to "love and fine works". (Romans 12:17-21; Hebrews 10:24-25)

That’s biblically known as being in the world, but not being part of worldly immorality.
Being 'in the world but not of it' was what Jesus was.....so I'll follow his example....it includes morality, but more importantly it means being no part of the devil's world governmental system. You can justify whatever course you wish. I am not your judge.
I am simply telling you what the Bible says.....the parts you choose to ignore.

Jesus commended a Roman soldiers faith. He did not tell that centurion he was sinning by being a soldier, and that he must resign.
What does history tell us about those Christians who were in the military prior to becoming followers of Christ....?

Early Christians refused to serve in the Roman army, in both the legions and auxilia, considering such service as wholly incompatible with the teachings of Christianity.

Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (CX): “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 254)

In his treatise “The Chaplet, or De Corona” (XI), when discussing “whether warfare is proper at all for Christians,” Tertullian (c. 200 C.E.) argued from Scripture the unlawfulness even of a military life itself, concluding, “I banish from us the military life.”—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1957, Vol. III, pp. 99, 100.

“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333)

Confirming this....“It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight; . . . up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.” (The Early Church and the World, by C. J. Cadoux, 1955, pp. 275, 276)

“In the second century, Christianity . . . had affirmed the incompatibility of military service with Christianity.” (A Short History of Rome, by G. Ferrero and C. Barbagallo, 1919, p. 382)

“The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers.” (Our World Through the Ages, by N. Platt and M. J. Drummond, 1961, p. 125)

“The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers.” (The New World’s Foundations in the Old, by R. and W. M. West, 1929, p. 131)

“The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.” (Editorial introduction to “Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246)

“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.

Need more evidence?