Could the disciples have lost their salvation?

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ScottA

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I thought you were saying that God gave the Holy Spirit to all people, in the righteous to do greater righteousness, and to the evil to do greater evil. Did I misunderstand?

Yes, you quoted the Scriptures, and what do they mean?

Much love!
mark

Ok, let's go back to this.

Do you not mean here that God gave the Holy Spirit to every person, good or evil, and that His Holy Spirit causes everyone to flourish in either their good or evil?

Is this not what you are saying?

Much love!
Mark
Perhaps I said it too plainly. Here is God saying He does both:

"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him." I Samuel 16:14
 

farouk

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We get back to the fact that Romans 8.38-39 speaks of the believer's eternal security; and that John's First Epistle says a lot about the believer's assurance.
 

CoreIssue

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Not all of that is wrong, but it is not a good representation of the truth from God, and more the teachings of men.

"Free will" is not an ability given by God to do our own will, but rather His ability to manifest the very thing(s) that are already in a person.

But since you cannot imagine it, here is an example of both good and evil from the Lord:

"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him." I Samuel 16:14

So what we do, good or bad, was preplanned implanted in us?

Sounding way too much like Calvinism.
 

Waiting on him

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Greetings all, and blessings in Christ!

This is a continuation thread from one I started recently on the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. In it, there was the suggestion that the servant of the Lord could be given over to "tormentors" if he refused to walk in forgiveness. Arguments were presented that these tormentors could not be demons since it would insinuate that a servant of God could be cast into Hell and thus lose his salvation.

I have a follow up question: What was the Lord telling His disciples in this passage then? The reference here is even more suggestive of eternal torment, should they disobey Him and turn to using their spiritual authority to abuse His church:

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51)
_____________________________________

To any for whom this thread may cause concern, it is not intended to create doubts in anyone's minds about their salvation. I believe those who are His have nothing to fear, provided they can abide by a few simple and reasonable rules. But there are a few things I believe He will not tolerate under any circumstances, and one of them is mentioned here. When His spiritual leaders turn to abusing His people instead of feeding and nurturing them spiritually, I believe their reward will be eternal suffering, where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

NOTE: Please answer the question in the OP before proceeding with any discussion: What was the Lord referring to by saying He would cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
The Pharisees knew exactly who this parable was aimed at. This is part of God orchestrating his crusifiction. Your mistake hidden is the same mistake many make when reading scripture, they make themselves the focal point instead of Christ.
 

ScottA

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So what we do, good or bad, was preplanned implanted in us?

Sounding way too much like Calvinism.
I wouldn't know about Calvinism. But just as God is "I am", we too "are" what we are...and life in the world is just a manifestation of it. What was written before time, is now told through the pages of history. His story. Then comes the end.
 

CoreIssue

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I wouldn't know about Calvinism. But just as God is "I am", we too "are" what we are...and life in the world is just a manifestation of it. What was written before time, is now told through the pages of history. His story. Then comes the end.

The world manifests it via freewill.
 

marks

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Perhaps I said it too plainly. Here is God saying He does both:

"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him." I Samuel 16:14

This is non-responsive. You don't have to respond. I'm not planning to try to force you. But if you believe what you are saying, why not answer plainly?

Ok, let's go back to this.

Do you not mean here that God gave the Holy Spirit to every person, good or evil, and that His Holy Spirit causes everyone to flourish in either their good or evil?

Is this not what you are saying?

Much love!
Mark

What say ye?
 

marks

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Perhaps I said it too plainly. Here is God saying He does both:

"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him." I Samuel 16:14

Not so.

A spirit sent by God distressed Saul. You can as easily say a wind sent by God blew down a tree. We'd find that distressing, but not sinful. Not wicked or evil, just calamitous. There was a spirit who was distressing, and was sent to Saul.

Saul was to be distressed, and God send a spirit to do that.

But does that teach us that God sent His Holy Spirit poured out on all people, both the just and the unjust, to cause them to, with your word, "flourish", in whatever they are? The good to do more and better good, the evil to do more and worse evil, by the power of the Holy Spirit?

It does not.

Personally, I find that idea completely repugnant.

Much love!
Mark
 
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CoreIssue

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This is non-responsive. You don't have to respond. I'm not planning to try to force you. But if you believe what you are saying, why not answer plainly?



What say ye?

I'm going to chip in here.

Example of the Old Testament. Pagan kings have it in her heart to invade Israel. The Holy Spirit would encourage that desire for God's purpose of punishing Israel.

But when done, he would smash the pagan countries.

The Holy Spirit doesn't create anything new in the hearts of evil. He enhances what is already there to accomplish his purposes.

Like some here encourage others to lash out to aid their purposes. Be they good or be they bad.
 

CoreIssue

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Not so.

A spirit sent by God distressed Saul. You can as easily say a wind sent by God blew down a tree. We'd find that distressing, but not sinful. Not wicked or evil, just calamitous. There was a spirit who was distressing, and was sent to Saul.

Saul was to be distressed, and God send a spirit to do that.

But that does teach us that God sent His Holy Spirit poured out on all people, both the just and the unjust, to cause them to, with your word, "flourish", in whatever they are? The good to do more and better good, the evil to do more and worse evil, by the power of the Holy Spirit?

It does not.

Personally, I find that idea completely repugnant.

Much love!
Mark

One has to get the correct definition of spirit. To assume the demon may or may not be correct.

This part of the definition could very well apply.

  • spirit (as seat of emotion)
    1. desire
    2. sorrow, trouble
  • spirit
    1. as seat or organ of mental acts
    2. rarely of the will
    3. as seat especially of moral character
 

Hidden In Him

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Not according to James 2 and Romans 8.

God foreknew he would love him before any of us were born. At that point we were predestined all the way to glorification.

Sorry your probation example is false. osas.

I'd have to deal with not only two whole Chapters but probably two entire letters to pursue this with you, so unfortunately it will have to wait.

Maybe some other time.
 

CoreIssue

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I'd have to deal with not only two whole Chapters but probably two entire letters to pursue this with you, so unfortunately it will have to wait.

Maybe some other time.
Romans seven, eight and nine are solid OSAS.

There are no exceptions and no exclusions. Romans 8 makes point after point of it will be.

And it's crystal clear that nothing in all creation can take those he predestines all the way to glorification that can take them from his hand.

That includes every individual because every individual is part of creation.
 

Hidden In Him

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Your reaction was pretty telltale.

I'm fairly emotional, but you were reading in this time.
No one wants to think that of God, that he would give his power to evil men also. But whether you look at the news or the scriptures, it is obvious that he does:

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

In the context of the Chapter, Scott, the "evils" he creates are circumstances having to do with the rise and fall of nations. It is not saying He deliberately creates evil men. But we're far too afield of the OP at this point anyway, so let's leave it there.
 

Hidden In Him

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Romans seven, eight and nine are solid OSAS.

There are no exceptions and no exclusions. Romans 8 makes point after point of it will be.

And it's crystal clear that nothing in all creation can take those he predestines all the way to glorification that can take them from his hand.

That includes every individual because every individual is part of creation.

CoreIssue, you are doing the same thing Byrd was doing in hijacking this thread over into a debate you want it to focus on. You are not the only one, so I don't blame you solely, but focus on the passage at hand. I asked you a question in Post #25 and you never answered. If you missed it, let's get back to discussing the passage in the OP.

Appreciate it.
 

CoreIssue

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CoreIssue, you are doing the same thing Byrd was doing in hijacking this thread over into a debate you want it to focus on. You are not the only one, so I don't blame you solely, but focus on the passage at hand. I asked you a question in Post #25 and you never answered. If you missed it, let's get back to discussing the passage in the OP.


Appreciate it.

I hijack nothing. What I said is relevant.

I missed that question but the answer I gave to the other covers a lot of it:

First of all, here it is the better translation.

Matthew 24:51 New International Version (NIV)
51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Remember, this was to Israel. The church did not yet exist.

Dismemberment was an ancient punishment for the worst of criminals.

Once dismembered, his spirit went to hell and his body may have been cremated.

It is relevant to all the time frames.
 

marks

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I'm going to chip in here.

Example of the Old Testament. Pagan kings have it in her heart to invade Israel. The Holy Spirit would encourage that desire for God's purpose of punishing Israel.

But when done, he would smash the pagan countries.

The Holy Spirit doesn't create anything new in the hearts of evil. He enhances what is already there to accomplish his purposes.

Like some here encourage others to lash out to aid their purposes. Be they good or be they bad.

Hi CoreIssue,

So then you agree that the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost to all people who would live thereafter, to enhance and encourage and empower both the good to do good and the evil to do evil?

Much love!
mark
 

CoreIssue

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Hi CoreIssue,

So then you agree that the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost to all people who would live thereafter, to enhance and encourage and empower both the good to do good and the evil to do evil?

Much love!
mark

Absolutely not.

The Holy Spirit only given to the to be born again.

He never indwells unbelievers.

There is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation or the MK. That is a Church reality that ends at the rapture.
 

VictoryinJesus

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But does that teach us that God sent His Holy Spirit poured out on all people, both the just and the unjust,

Matthew 5:45-48
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

(Romans 13:1-5)
[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
 

CoreIssue

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Matthew 5:45-48
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

(Romans 13:1-5)
[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Nothing says that everyone.

Matthew was written for the Holy Spirit was given.
 

marks

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Absolutely not.

The Holy Spirit only given to the to be born again.

He never indwells unbelievers.

There is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation or the MK. That is a Church reality that ends at the rapture.

OK. Because that is what @ScottA is espousing.

Much love!