Daniels 4 Beasts

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, like I said, some apply the final beast kingdom being a revived Roman empire, just because of the mention of iron in the feet of ten toes. Others don't see the final beast kingdom being different from the previous beasts either, like you for example. Yet it will be 'diverse', or different than all those previous to it. And that idea of the final one having all the pieces "together" when Christ comes to smite it upon its feet, is actually very telling. That's why I asked that question.

Each one of the 5 pieces of the beast image statue in Daniel 2 are to be in operation when Lord Jesus comes. That means a revived Babylon style empire, a revived Medo-Persia style empire, a revived Grecia empire, a revived Roman empire, and the final piece, the feet of part iron mixed with clay will be.... ??? The answer to that last beast location should be easy for those that grasp Daniel about the "abomination of desolation".

one thing to remember, each beast has to it parts of the beast it conquered.

The final form of the beast will have parts of all four.

one of the biggest reasons people call the final beast rome is in Dan 9. the people of the prince who is to come, will destroy the city and sanctuary.

the people of the prince to come did that in 70 AD.

the prince will commit the abomination of desolation that Jesus mentions in Matt 24.

The people were rome

the future prince than will be from some form of an empire which is roman in nature, at the leasr. he is a roman prince. although the empire might not be called rome.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why are you confused? It because the spirit of confusion and of lie is working a lot. It is provoking the wrath of God - a consuming fire - and can be devoured by fire. God is in great wrath now.

I was confused because it seamed to contradict itself

We are not in wrath now. You have not begun to see Gods wrath.

 

[Cassandra]

ok I see, yes it is fascinating.

are you trying to say the roman catholic church is the final beast?

I believe the 3.5 years fits with daniels 70th week. where in the middle of the week. the future leader of rome places an abomination of desolation in the holy place.

that would make it 1260 literal days not years.. If this is true.. what do you think

I believe the 70th week was already over.

Command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (not just the temple)
457BC +
69 weeks =483 days (69 weeks till the coming of the Messiah)

-457(BC)+483= 27 adding the 0 year= 27AD. The date Messiah was baptized.
3.5 years into the last week 70, is 31AD (he shall be cut off, but not for Himself) crucifixion,
and add 3.5 more years to that = 34AD, Stephen is martyred, Paul is converted and Gospel goes to the Gentiles.

457 Decree to rebuild and restore(Ezra 7:1-27)
plus 69 weeks 27AD (Baptism of Jesus)
3.5 years later (middle of the 70th week) 31 AD crucifixion( cut off but not for Himself)
3.5 years later Stephen stoned, and Paul converts 34AD

I have seen no other prophecy that so explains the 70 weeks as well as this one. The dates line up.

 

[Jay Ross]

No, Jesus did not say they would turn to Him during this world. Instead, He said the "children of the kingdom" that refused to come to His supper when they were bid, will be cast to the "outer darkness" (Matt. 8:10-12, Matt. 22:1-14).

Yes David Jesus did say that, but their is a remanent from Among the Israelites who will repent in our near future, with who God will enter into a refurbished covenant initially make at Mt. Sinai, but rebelled against within 40 days of it being made, and this refurbished covenant will contain a new process by which all of mankind will be saved during the Great summer season of harvest during the Last Age.

In Luke 14:25-35 and 19:11-27, it is recorded that Jesus also said that when Israel see the armies that had come to trample God's Sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts being judged within sight of Jerusalem, that they would seek His terms of peace, and that when Satan is judged and goes away, supposedly to gain/be given a kingdom, that some of his servants, i.e. the Israelites, will at that time repent for serving serving Satan and send a delegation to God, stating that they no longer want to have Satan as a king over them. When Satan returns after being released from the Bottomless pit, he seeks to kill the Israelites for rejecting him, but God protects them from the flood that he sends to consume them. After this, Satan then makes war on the "Christians," her off springs who keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus. Rev. 12:12-17.

Apostle Paul showed in Romans 11 that the 'blindness' (the spirit of slumber) will remain upon the majority of unbelieving Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, and that means until the day of Christ's future return.

The verses found in Romans 11:25-26 do not convey the same context as found in the original Greek Text and if the same context was recorded in our English Translations, then it would be paraphrased something like this: -

Rom 11:25-27: - 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until "After the fullness, with respect to time, of the Heathen Gentiles, {who have been trampling God's Sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts over a determined period of 2,400 years}, has run its time to completion, 26 then all of Israel will be Saved." as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;​

27 For this is My covenant with them,

When I take away their sins."​

The completion of the Daniel 8's prophecy of the Gentiles trampling God's Sanctuary and His earthly Hosts for a period of 2,400 years will occur when all of the Kings of the earth are assembled at Armageddon to be judged at the same time that the fallen Heavenly Hosts are judged in heaven, (Isa. 24:21-22) and the judged kings of the earth and the heavenly hosts will then be gathered together and imprisoned in a pit for many days, to await the time of their punishment.

What is actually getting ready to happen with the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem at the end when they build another temple and start up the old covenant worship again, is that God is going to send them a fake-Messiah. And him they will worship in place of Jesus Christ Whom they rejected. Only when they see Jesus coming in the clouds to destroy that fake-Messiah will many of those Jews feel shame and begin to turn to Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah.

Your last paragraph, in the above post, is simply repeated conjecture on your part and is not supported by scripture. Of course you are welcome to actually post the scriptures that supports this conjecture and then I will take note and consider those verses to test their validity.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

Once again you force a day to mean 1,000 years without any biblical warrant.

Israelites have been awakened in every generation since Pentecost! There has always been a remnant, and until Israel's national regeneration, there will always be a remnant.

Hosea is literally speaking of the last 3 days of the "tribulation" when the veil is finally removed, Israel mourns for their sin of rejecting their Messiah and repent and cause Jesus to return to fight for them with the forces of Antichrist mounted against them.

It seems to me that you post is without any biblical warrant.

 

[Jay Ross]

well those two days is an allegorical interpretation by forcing days to become 1,000 years. and yes Israel will have to repent of one sin before the Lords return- the national sin of blaspheming the Spirit by rejecting Jesus as messiah! Once Israel says "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" this will cause Jesus to return!

You allegorize verse 19. This is a well known "Hebraism" that means for eternity! If not then gods throne only remains for two ages according to your allegorical rewrite.

Sadly, the tradition of the Jewish understanding has been adopted by the "Christian" scholars in their translation of Lam. 5:19 where the have forced an infinite understand on H:5769 instead of a finite understanding such that Israel did not have to face their iniquity of idolatrous worship, which was the primary cause for their separation from God.



It seems to me that your understanding is without warrant.

 

[Davy]

one thing to remember, each beast has to it parts of the beast it conquered.

The final form of the beast will have parts of all four.

That's basically what I was saying. All the previous beasts are 'active' in the final one. But the final beast is at a new location, at least its control center will be, and it will be Jerusalem. The final beast is the beast kingdom of Revelation 13:1, headquartered at Jerusalem. And the landscape is a "one world government" system, except it will have a king over it when it becomes the beast kingdom (requiring the arrival of the Antichrist in Jerusalem).

one of the biggest reasons people call the final beast rome is in Dan 9. the people of the prince who is to come, will destroy the city and sanctuary.

the people of the prince to come did that in 70 AD.

That part in Daniel 9:26 was history with the Roman general Titus destroying Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The part in red below is yet to happen, and is for the very end...

Dan 9:26
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
KJV

the future prince than will be from some form of an empire which is roman in nature, at the leasr. he is a roman prince. although the empire might not be called rome.

No, we are told by Jesus who the future prince will be, and where he will spring from. Revelation 13 shows us it will be the "another beast" that comes working miracles to deceive. That is the pseudo-Christ that Jesus warned us of in Matthew 24:23-26. That is who will end sacrifices in Jerusalem once they've started up again, and will spiritually desolate the next temple there with the "image of the beast" idol. For him to deceive the unbelieving Jews, he must be associated with them as a people.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's basically what I was saying. All the previous beasts are 'active' in the final one. But the final beast is at a new location, at least its control center will be, and it will be Jerusalem. The final beast is the beast kingdom of Revelation 13:1, headquartered at Jerusalem. And the landscape is a "one world government" system, except it will have a king over it when it becomes the beast kingdom (requiring the arrival of the Antichrist in Jerusalem).

The antichrist is the final beast. The prince who is to come

That part in Daniel 9:26 was history with the Roman general Titus destroying Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The part in red below is yet to happen, and is for the very end...

Dan 9:26
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
KJV
When the end of desolations has completed. Christ will return. He puts an end to the desolation of jerusalem. Which sits in desolation today and continues the war desolations.

No, we are told by Jesus who the future prince will be, and where he will spring from. Revelation 13 shows us it will be the "another beast" that comes working miracles to deceive. That is the pseudo-Christ that Jesus warned us of in Matthew 24:23-26. That is who will end sacrifices in Jerusalem once they've started up again, and will spiritually desolate the next temple there with the "image of the beast" idol. For him to deceive the unbelieving Jews, he must be associated with them as a people.

He is of the people who destroyed Jerusalem.

It is he who commits the abomination of desolations. Who changes times and laws. Who does all the tings which the final beast is said will be accomplished.

He confirms a covenant for 1 week (7 years) but in the middle of the week breaks his own covenant by committing the abomination of desolation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Moving to revelation.

Who is this Little horn? Do we see him again spoken of in prophesy?

Beast of revelation, given to John .

Ch 13:
1. Had characteristics of all of daniels beasts (leopard, bear and Lion) and is itself the 4th beast
2. Given power by satan himself (son of perdition)
3. Was mortally wounded (lost his power) but was restored to life (Rome died, and even though many have tried to revive it, No one has succeeded, Satan will revive this power)
4. Spoke pompous words (blasphemies)
5. Given power for 42 months (3 ½ years)
6. Given power to persecute the saints of God
7. Power is greater than any previous empire. As it is worldwide in scope (every tribe, language and nation were given to his hand) how many more ways can God say worldwide, every human alive at this time will be under his power.

Ch 17:
1. Was (had power) is not (lost power) will ascend out of the abyss (powered by Satan himself) will be destroyed (perdition)
2. 7 kings, 5 have fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, media-persia, Greece. One is (rome) and one is yet to come (Rome 2 or iron and clay)
3. He will continue a short time
4. 10 kingdom nation (splintered, they will give power to the beast, but will not be unified.) hence the mix of iron and clay
5. Will make war with God himself (the saints) but will be destroyed by the lamb

Rev 19
1. Beast and worlds armies gather together to make war with the lamb
2. Christ defeats beast and worlds armies (so many bodies are left in this battle that birds feast on them for months)
3. Beast is captured, and thrown to the fire


So we see from these two accounts, the following which is identical with the little horn and the beast.

1. A power of ten kingdoms will unit and form a kingdom which has come out of Rome (Dan 2: 41, Dan 7: 7, 24, Rev 17: 12-13)
2. A little horn, or beast, will come out from among these ten (Dan 7:8, Rev 17: 12)
3. Will gain control of the whole earth (Dan 7: 23, Rev 7: 7)
4. Will be given power for 3 ½ years (Dan 7: 25, Rev 13:5)
5. Will speak blasphemies (Dan 7: 25, Rev 13: 5)
6. Will make war with the saints of God, and given permission by God to do so (Dan 7: 21, Rev 13: 7)
7. God puts and end to his reign by defeating him (Dan 2: 45, Dan 7: 11, 22, 26, Rev 19: 20)
8. Will be cast into fire (Dan 7: 11, Rev 19: 20)

 

[Davy]

Yes David Jesus did say that, but their is a remanent from Among the Israelites who will repent in our near future, with who God will enter into a refurbished covenant initially make at Mt. Sinai, but rebelled against within 40 days of it being made, and this refurbished covenant will contain a new process by which all of mankind will be saved during the Great summer season of harvest during the Last Age.

Nope. You are trying to read into Scripture a doctrine from men. There is ONLY one covenant involving His Plan of Salvation, and it is The New Covenant Jesus Christ. The old covenant never could save anyone, for it was only given to point... the way to Christ Jesus, The New Covenant.

And the remnant of Israel prophesied to be saved is already... within the membership of Christ's Church today. It began with Christ's Apostles and disciples at His 1st coming, and when Jesus was rejected by the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem, The Gospel then went to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, which means the ten lost tribes of Israel after the 1 Kings 11 split of old Israel into two nations. This your teachers have omitted teaching you that history and from God's prophets about the ten scattered tribes.

 

[Jay Ross]

Nope. You are trying to read into Scripture a doctrine from men. There is ONLY one covenant involving His Plan of Salvation, and it is The New Covenant Jesus Christ. The old covenant never could save anyone, for it was only given to point... the way to Christ Jesus, The New Covenant.

And the remnant of Israel prophesied to be saved is already... within the membership of Christ's Church today. It began with Christ's Apostles and disciples at His 1st coming, and when Jesus was rejected by the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem, The Gospel then went to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, which means the ten lost tribes of Israel after the 1 Kings 11 split of old Israel into two nations. This your teachers have omitted teaching you that history and from God's prophets about the ten scattered tribes.

I am sorry Davy, I should have quoted Jer. 31:31ff for you so that you could plainly see that I was referencing scripture, unless you do not hold that the Jer. 31:31ff is applicable any more. Strangely, many Christians quote these verses to justify their "New Covenant" theology without much understanding.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Your understanding took a nose dive when you started to talk about the Roman Empire.

The four beasts are the four winds of heaven that stir up the sea such that people, people groups, kingdoms and empires manifest the dominion/domain of the four respective beasts. As such the manifested beasts within the people, people groups, kingdoms and empires ebbs and flows as they drift in and out of the influences of the respective four winds of heaven as the centauries past over time.

As for the statue prophecy, the five segments mentioned that have had or have dominion over the Land of the Chaldeans are: -

1 Babylon
2 Medes/Persians
3 Grecian

A gap of some 2,000 years where the Land of the Chaldeans lay devastated and desolated, until it was remembered once more before God in 1926. (Isa 13:20, Jer 50:39, Rev 16:19)

4 Iraq and finally
5 The Coalition of the Willing (Jer 50-51)​

With Iraq and the Coalition of the willing, being visible over the past 100 years.

Sadly, the tradition of the translators has obscured the original context of the Hebrew texts in their translation into our English Translations. The LXX is not better that the Jewish translators of their Holy scriptures into Greek.

Oh well continue on with your dribble.

Shalom

Rome is the 4th kingdom. Secondly, the 10 toes are clearly a continuation of the Roman empire because the feet are part iron. The Dan. 2 statue was only comprised of 4 metals, and the Dan. 7 are beasts that represents those same 4 kingdoms.

Anyone ever seen this ?
Ten kingdoms.

1. Anglo-Saxons
   
2. Franks
   
3. Allemans
   
4. Burgundians
   
5. Visigoths
   
6. Suevi
   
7. Vandals
   
8. Heruli
   
9. Bavarians
   
10. Ostrogoths 3 plucked by the roots Vandals, Heruli, and the Ostrogoths the Heruli were in 493; the Vandals in 534, and the Ostrogoths in 553.

The correct list would look more like this:

1. Vandals
2. Heruli
3. Ostrogoths

- The deadly wound is inflicted with the fall of the old Roman empire in 476 A.D(Rev. 13:3). The first 3 kingdoms are plucked up by the Vatican(Dan. 7:8). Notice Daniel specifically mentions that only 3 kingdoms were to precede the rise of the pompous little horn.

4. The deadly wound is healed(Rev. 13:3) with Justinian's Imperial Restoration(554 A.D.)
5. Frankish Kingdom(774 A.D.)
6. Holy Roman Empire (962 A.D.)
7. Hapsburg Dynasty (1520 A.D.)
8. Napoleon's Dynasyy (1805 A.D.)
9. Italian & German Fascist Regimes (1870 - 1945 A.D.)
10. United States of Europe (202? A.D.)

The last 7 kingdoms that are represented by the 10 horns in Dan. 7:7 were prophesied to be guided by the Vatican(Rev. 17:1-7, 9).

 

[Jay Ross]

Rome is the 4th kingdom. Secondly, the 10 toes are clearly a continuation of the Roman empire because the feet are part iron. The Dan. 2 statue was only comprised of 4 metals, and the Dan. 7 are beasts that represents those same 4 kingdoms.
The correct list would look more like this:

1. Vandals
2. Heruli
3. Ostrogoths

- The deadly wound is inflicted with the fall of the old Roman empire in 476 A.D(Rev. 13:3). The first 3 kingdoms are plucked up by the Vatican(Dan. 7:8). Notice Daniel specifically mentions that only 3 kingdoms were to precede the rise of the pompous little horn.

4. The deadly wound is healed(Rev. 13:3) with Justinian's Imperial Restoration(554 A.D.)
5. Frankish Kingdom(774 A.D.)
6. Holy Roman Empire (962 A.D.)
7. Hapsburg Dynasty (1520 A.D.)
8. Napoleon's Dynasyy (1805 A.D.)
9. Italian & German Fascist Regimes (1870 - 1945 A.D.)
10. United States of Europe (202? A.D.)

The last 7 kingdoms that are represented by the 10 horns in Dan. 7:7 were prophesied to be guided by the Vatican(Rev. 17:1-7, 9).

You have not been able to show in you last post that My opinion of your understand should change.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Rome is the 4th kingdom. Secondly, the 10 toes are clearly a continuation of the Roman empire because the feet are part iron. The Dan. 2 statue was only comprised of 4 metals, and the Dan. 7 are beasts that represents those same 4 kingdoms.
The correct list would look more like this:

1. Vandals
2. Heruli
3. Ostrogoths

- The deadly wound is inflicted with the fall of the old Roman empire in 476 A.D(Rev. 13:3). The first 3 kingdoms are plucked up by the Vatican(Dan. 7:8). Notice Daniel specifically mentions that only 3 kingdoms were to precede the rise of the pompous little horn.

4. The deadly wound is healed(Rev. 13:3) with Justinian's Imperial Restoration(554 A.D.)
5. Frankish Kingdom(774 A.D.)
6. Holy Roman Empire (962 A.D.)
7. Hapsburg Dynasty (1520 A.D.)
8. Napoleon's Dynasyy (1805 A.D.)
9. Italian & German Fascist Regimes (1870 - 1945 A.D.)
10. United States of Europe (202? A.D.)

The last 7 kingdoms that are represented by the 10 horns in Dan. 7:7 were prophesied to be guided by the Vatican(Rev. 17:1-7, 9).

Wow.

So the Catholic Church is the final beast?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It seems to me that you post is without any biblical warrant.

Wowo what a dodge!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sadly, the tradition of the Jewish understanding has been adopted by the "Christian" scholars in their translation of Lam. 5:19 where the have forced an infinite understand on H:5769 instead of a finite understanding such that Israel did not have to face their iniquity of idolatrous worship, which was the primary cause for their separation from God.

View attachment 19934

It seems to me that your understanding is without warrant.

It seems to me you are just contnet at looking at a dictionary and is ignorant of how Owlam" became used in Jewish culture and language. We have teh words "forever" and "eternal" to connote time without end. Greekas have "aion". Hebrews did not have a specific word meaning "eternal" or time without end. "Owlam" when not modified is understood as eternal! Yes specifically and technically it is as you pasted.

But you need to defend your "different understanding" of teh passage. sorry but we already have a pope who thinks that by speaking ex-cathedra, we are all to bow down to what He says!

 

[Jay Ross]

It seems to me you are just contnet at looking at a dictionary and is ignorant of how Owlam" became used in Jewish culture and language. We have teh words "forever" and "eternal" to connote time without end. Greekas have "aion". Hebrews did not have a specific word meaning "eternal" or time without end. "Owlam" when not modified is understood as eternal! Yes specifically and technically it is as you pasted.

But you need to defend your "different understanding" of teh passage. sorry but we already have a pope who thinks that by speaking ex-cathedra, we are all to bow down to what He says!

If you chose to bow that is your decision, but that is not my expectation. Your post suggest that you believe that your understanding is the only one that should be recognised as being true.

If you have valid understandings then I will adjust my reasoning, but so far that has not been the case.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you chose to bow that is your decision, but that is not my expectation. Your post suggest that you believe that your understanding is the only one that should be recognised as being true.

If you have valid understandings then I will adjust my reasoning, but so far that has not been the case.

Well, you can come up with any ideas of what my posts suggest, but it would be far better if instead of making assumptionjs, you simply ask me.

Well I am always willing to adjust my understanding, so will you defend your positionjs on generations=1000 years ?

And your Lamentation commentary? Never learned that in Hebrew Language or cultural studies.

 

[Jay Ross]

Well, you can come up with any ideas of what my posts suggest, but it would be far better if instead of making assumptions, you simply ask me.

Well I am always willing to adjust my understanding, so will you defend your positions on generations=1000 years ?

And your Lamentation commentary? Never learned that in Hebrew Language or cultural studies.

Well, shows that I am breaking new understandings for you if you are prepared to consider their implications.

 

[Earburner]

I believe the 70th week was already over.

Command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (not just the temple)
457BC +
69 weeks =483 days (69 weeks till the coming of the Messiah)

-457(BC)+483= 27 adding the 0 year= 27AD. The date Messiah was baptized.
3.5 years into the last week 70, is 31AD (he shall be cut off, but not for Himself) crucifixion,
and add 3.5 more years to that = 34AD, Stephen is martyred, Paul is converted and Gospel goes to the Gentiles.

457 Decree to rebuild and restore(Ezra 7:1-27)
plus 69 weeks 27AD (Baptism of Jesus)
3.5 years later (middle of the 70th week) 31 AD crucifixion( cut off but not for Himself)
3.5 years later Stephen stoned, and Paul converts 34AD

I have seen no other prophecy that so explains the 70 weeks as well as this one. The dates line up.

Hi Cassandra,
Amen! I agree with your view 100%.
No one can comprehend, understand and then verbalize it, except by the Holy Spirit of God.
Isaiah 55:8-9, Zechariah 4:6, John 16:13