Data On The Trinity

[BeyondET]

Oh so then we can make up whatever we can dream up and then teach it like if it's doctrine? Are you Catholic?

What are you talking about Mars is fake?

 

[MatthewG]

I'm not sure if I can find anything in the Bible that says we can or should die to the flesh. But since I like you I will give you my very own book if you would enjoy reading it. www.carb-fat.com/jesus.html

Thank you for the website, if you would like to send a book to me please send me a private message and ill give you my email.

Was reading Romans 3-6 today, give that a read would be my encouragement.

 

[Peterlag]

Thank you for the website, if you would like to send a book to me please send me a private message and ill give you my email.

Was reading Romans 3-6 today, give that a read would be my encouragement.

The book is online and can be read at www.carb-fat.com/jesus.html

 

[Rich R]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

Very true that the trinity is not in the Bible. Shouldn't that give trinitarians pause, especially when the Bible declares it contains everything that pertains to life and godliness?

I wonder what exactly Paul meant when he said, "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached," (2 Cor 11:4).

The scriptures don't say who that other Jesus was, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the trinity Jesus. The Gnostics were making inroads in the church before Paul even died. They loved mysteries that couldn't be comprehended by the intellect. The trinity certainly fits the bill on that one!

 

[Peterlag]

Very true that the trinity is not in the Bible. Shouldn't that give trinitarians pause, especially when the Bible declares it contains everything that pertains to life and godliness?

I wonder what exactly Paul meant when he said, "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached," (2 Cor 11:4).

The scriptures don't say who that other Jesus was, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the trinity Jesus. The Gnostics were making inroads in the church before Paul even died. They loved mysteries that couldn't be comprehended by the intellect. The trinity certainly fits the bill on that one!

Speaking of Gnostics...

Gnosticism took many forms, but generally Gnostics taught that there was a supreme and unknowable Being, which they designated as the "Monad." The Monad produced various gods, who in turn produced other gods (these gods were called by different names, in part because of their power or position). One of these gods, called the "Demiurge" created the earth and then ruled over it as an angry, evil and jealous god. This evil god, Gnostics believed, was the god of the Old Testament, called Elohim. The Monad sent another god, "Christ" to bring special gnosis (knowledge) to mankind and free them from the influence of the evil Elohim. Thus, a Gnostic Christian would agree that Elohim created the heavens and earth, but he would not agree that He was the supreme God. Most Gnostics would also state that Elohim and Christ were at cross-purposes with each other. This is why it was so important for John 1:1 to say that the logos was with God, which at first glance seems to be a totally unnecessary statement.

 

[Jack]

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Some still haven't figured out the Name is singular. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE God.

 

[Rich R]

Speaking of Gnostics...

Gnosticism took many forms, but generally Gnostics taught that there was a supreme and unknowable Being, which they designated as the "Monad." The Monad produced various gods, who in turn produced other gods (these gods were called by different names, in part because of their power or position). One of these gods, called the "Demiurge" created the earth and then ruled over it as an angry, evil and jealous god. This evil god, Gnostics believed, was the god of the Old Testament, called Elohim. The Monad sent another god, "Christ" to bring special gnosis (knowledge) to mankind and free them from the influence of the evil Elohim. Thus, a Gnostic Christian would agree that Elohim created the heavens and earth, but he would not agree that He was the supreme God. Most Gnostics would also state that Elohim and Christ were at cross-purposes with each other. This is why it was so important for John 1:1 to say that the logos was with God, which at first glance seems to be a totally unnecessary statement.

I had never seen the connection between the Gnostic idea of God and Jesus being at cross-purposes and John's, "and the logos was with God." Huge implications! Thanks.

Substituting the word "Jesus" for "logos" completely obscures the real beauty of John's gospel and his stated purpose in writing it, i.e., that we can know that Jesus is the Christ (the anointed one) and the son of God (John 20:31).

 

[Jack]

I had never seen the connection between the Gnostic idea of God and Jesus being at cross-purposes and John's, "and the logos was with God." Huge implications! Thanks.

Substituting the word "Jesus" for "logos" completely obscures the real beauty of John's gospel and his stated purpose in writing it, i.e., that we can know that Jesus is the Christ (the anointed one) and the son of God (John 20:31).

Who says the Son of God can't be God? Kingdom Hall maybe?

 

[Rich R]

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Some still haven't figured out the Name is singular. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE God.

It is not totally clear that the older Greek texts had this phrase in Matthew 28. It may have been a forgery. But apart from that, there are about a half dozen accounts in the NT that talks about people getting baptized by the Apostles. None of them follow the formula in Matthew. They always baptized in the name of Jesus only.

Acts 2:38
Acts 8:16
Acts 10:48
Acts 19:4
Romans 6:3
1Cor 10:2
Gal 3:27

"With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,"
Eusebius, Book III Chapt 6, 132(a)

The Shem Tov Hebrew manuscript of Matthew, an independent Hebrew witness, omits the baptismal command in this verse.

Even if this was in th verse, it doesn't say that all three are one God any more than James, Cephas, and John are one person, Galatians 2:9

 

[Rich R]

Who says the Son of God can't be God? Kingdom Hall maybe?

The Kingdom Hall is not the standard for truth. The scriptures are and I referenced those scriptures in John 20:31 where it says John wrote to show that Jesus is the Messiah and the son of God. Nothing there, or anywhere else in the scriptures, that says, "God the Son."

There are more and more Chrtistians coming to the realization that Jesus really was the son of God and not all are Jehovah Witnesses.

 

[Peterlag]

I had never seen the connection between the Gnostic idea of God and Jesus being at cross-purposes and John's, "and the logos was with God." Huge implications! Thanks.

Substituting the word "Jesus" for "logos" completely obscures the real beauty of John's gospel and his stated purpose in writing it, i.e., that we can know that Jesus is the Christ (the anointed one) and the son of God (John 20:31).

Here's more data on the Trinity... www.carb-fat.com/trinity.html

 

[Rich R]

Here's more data on the Trinity... www.carb-fat.com/trinity.html

I'll check out that link.

It's beyond all God given reason that something can be 100% one thing as well as 100% percent something diabolically opposed. God and man are about as opposite as it gets. That so many can be talked into accepting such a dichotomy only shows the power of tradition over truth.

Matt 15:6,

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

 

[Rich R]

Here's more data on the Trinity... www.carb-fat.com/trinity.html

I looked at that reference. Really well done. Were you ever, or are you still, a part of the Way International Biblical Research & Teaching Ministry?

 

[Peterlag]

I looked at that reference. Really well done. Were you ever, or are you still, a part of the Way International Biblical Research & Teaching Ministry?

I was in the seventies. It's where I started.

 

[Rich R]

I was in the seventies. It's where I started.

I thought so! That's when I started also. They were good days for sure.

 

[Peterlag]

I thought so! That's when I started also. They were good days for sure.

You are the only guy on these sites who ever asked me that question. How did you know? Cause it takes one to recognize one?

 

[Rich R]

You are the only guy on these sites who ever asked me that question. How did you know? Cause it takes one to recognize one?

I think it is simply that it takes one to recognize one. Mostly your lucid exegesis of the scriptures, a rarity these days. I met some other guy here from the Way. He was also around in the 70s.

 

[Wrangler]

Here's more data on the Trinity... www.carb-fat.com/trinity.html

I read the whole thing. Well researched, leaving the idea of the trinity in complete shreds.

 

[Jack]

It is not totally clear that the older Greek texts had this phrase in Matthew 28. It may have been a forgery. But apart from that, there are about a half dozen accounts in the NT that talks about people getting baptized by the Apostles. None of them follow the formula in Matthew. They always baptized in the name of Jesus only.

Acts 2:38
Acts 8:16
Acts 10:48
Acts 19:4
Romans 6:3
1Cor 10:2
Gal 3:27

"With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,"
Eusebius, Book III Chapt 6, 132(a)

The Shem Tov Hebrew manuscript of Matthew, an independent Hebrew witness, omits the baptismal command in this verse.

Even if this was in th verse, it doesn't say that all three are one God any more than James, Cephas, and John are one person, Galatians 2:9

But all of our Bibles say you're wrong. Should we believe you or our Christian Bible?

 

[Jack]

The Kingdom Hall is not the standard for truth. The scriptures are and I referenced those scriptures in John 20:31 where it says John wrote to show that Jesus is the Messiah and the son of God. Nothing there, or anywhere else in the scriptures, that says, "God the Son."

There are more and more Chrtistians coming to the realization that Jesus really was the son of God and not all are Jehovah Witnesses.

No Scripture? Of course not! Jesus is God the Creator.

Col 1 By Jesus all things were created!