Data On The Trinity

[Peterlag]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Matthias]

Welcome to the forums @Peterlag.

I see you wasted no time and jumped directly into the fire. I hope you’re prepared for the beating that you’re about to receive.

Just remember. They can kill you but they can’t eat you. That wouldn’t be civilized.

No matter what reception you receive, I hope you’ll treat them kindly, as presumably you would like for them to treat you.

I agree with your OP, as will many others. I just wanted to reassure you that you’re not alone.

What will you say if / when the assertion is made that the Jews were trinitarians; that it was they who brought us knowledge of the existence of the Trinity?

 

[marks]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

Creeds and such aside . . . What we know from the Bible itself is that the Jews had a serious problem with Jesus, thinking that He was making Himself equal with God. And they also had a problem with Him indicating His pre-existance.

Much love!

 

[APAK]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

Well said OP and welcome to this CB forum site. As Matthias just said, I too agree with his words.
Enjoy your stay!

 

[Wrangler]

Welcome to the boards.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it.

100% correct.

Welcome aboard!

 

[Wrangler]

Check out similar threads regarding juxtaposition and faith in Bible or God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Creeds and such aside . . . What we know from the Bible itself is that the Jews had a serious problem with Jesus, thinking that He was making Himself equal with God. And they also had a problem with Him indicating His pre-existance.

Yes that is true, but don’t forget that the Jews were looking for an excuse to have Jesus put to death....(but he broke no laws) so blasphemy, which carried the death penalty was the only charge they could bring against him.....they lied about him.....but their scriptures did not. It was clearly stated that Yahweh was “one” not “three” (Deuteronomy 6:4)

 

[Wrangler]

Yahweh IS 1 not 3.

 

[BeyondET]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

If that's wrong how can the Spirit be in all believers some 2.18 billion Christian maybe not all but still Three would be miniscule.

 

[ChristisGod]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

A person doesn’t need anything outside of the Bible to discover that God is Plural , not singular in Persons. Let me know if you want to discuss scriptures that declare what I said above is true . Thanks

hope this helps !!!

 

[ScottA]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

So...you take all that is written during the times of this world up to the point of coming out of darkness--and then stop? No--it's worse...you even leave out "knowledge shall increase" and the Spirit bringing forth "all truth!"

Well braavvoo!​

You mentioned "mystery." Did you not perceive that biblically speaking "mystery" is primarily a New Testament term:

Mentioned in the Bible some 26 times?

• Mark (1)
• Romans (2)
• 1 Corinthians (2)
• Ephesians (9)
• Colossians (4)
• 2 Thessalonians (1)
• 1 Timothy (3)
• Revelation (4)

Did you think that nothing further would unfold beyond the parchments of old--the revealing of mysteries that only began at the time of Christ?

Have you "all truth" to claim to support your partial findings, the sum total of which you yourself admit is from the past, rooted in the ages of darkness?
​

You also mention that "God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people" as a precedent for what to believe. Were they right about Christ? Were they not rather anti-Christ? And will you now take advice and preach the forlorn wisdom of fools and murders--who did not even know the Son, but crucified Him? Obviously you will and do.

But, Truth be known--that is Christ be known, whom your revered Jewish teachers crucified--it was not until Christ introduced that "Other" "H elper" (just as the Son was also introduced by the Father after much scripture, then rejected), that He was personally made known as the purveyor of the Spirit. So--no, He is not in the parchments as such, nor is the term "Trinity."

But the idea of "two or three witnesses" certainly is...which by definition, you and many now reject.

But don't get me wrong. I am not advocating for "three persons"--not at all. God is One. Nonetheless, it has pleased Him to reveal Himself "by the mouth of two or three witnesses."

If you reject it, you reject it.

If you receive it, He is all the more pleased.

​

 

[Enoch111]

Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The fact of the matter is that human beings cannot fully comprehend God. If you think you can, you are simply deluded. So there is no "club" to beat down doubters and dissenters. It is perfectly true that the Holy Trinity is indeed a Mystery -- "The Mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ" (Col 2:2; Rev 10:7; 1 Tim 2:16) -- so trying to dismiss this as invalid proves that the anti-trinitarians wish to create their own god.

The fact that Christians have held to this doctrine since the time of the apostles also counts for something. That fact that Jesus of Nazareth is God manifest in the flesh means that there are at least two persons in the Godhead. The fact that Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as God means that there are indeed three persons in the Godhead. So this is the true "data" on the Trinity.

 

[Enoch111]

A person doesn’t need anything outside of the Bible to discover that God is Plural , not singular in Persons.

Correct. The first verse of the Bible speaks of Elohim (plural), which is plural for El or Eloah. All Hebrew words ending in --im mean that there is a plurality.

 

[Matthias]

Correct. The first verse of the Bible speaks of Elohim (plural), which is plural for El or Eloah. All Hebrew words ending in --im mean that there is a plurality.

Elohim plural in form, plural in meaning is gods.

Elohim plural in form, singular in meaning is God or god.

The Messiah’s elohim is plural in form, singular in meaning.

There is no plurality in the Messiah’s God.

 

[Enoch111]

Elohim plural in form, plural in meaning is Gods. Elohim plural in form, singular in meaning is God.

The context tells us everything. And on top of that we have [YHWH] Yahweh Elohim [LORD God] in Scripture so that there can be no misunderstanding.

 

[Matthias]

The context tells us everything. And on top of that we have [YHWH] Yahweh Elohim [LORD God] in Scripture so that there can be no misunderstanding.

My point.

 

[Peterlag]

Welcome to the forums @Peterlag.

I see you wasted no time and jumped directly into the fire. I hope you’re prepared for the beating that you’re about to receive.

Just remember. They can kill you but they can’t eat you. That wouldn’t be civilized.

No matter what reception you receive, I hope you’ll treat them kindly, as presumably you would like for them to treat you.

I agree with your OP, as will many others. I just wanted to reassure you that you’re not alone.

What will you say if / when the assertion is made that the Jews were trinitarians; that it was they who brought us knowledge of the existence of the Trinity?

You brought a very big smile to me today and I love you for it. I will be kind always to everyone. I don't ever need to attack people personally because I am strong in the Scriptures and in the power of God.

Creeds and such aside . . . What we know from the Bible itself is that the Jews had a serious problem with Jesus, thinking that He was making Himself equal with God. And they also had a problem with Him indicating His pre-existance.

Much love!

Those are not the Jews I am referring to. The ones I meant were the great Prophets who spoke for God all throughout the Old Testament. They never taught a Trinity or even mentioned it.

 

[Peterlag]

Yes that is true, but don’t forget that the Jews were looking for an excuse to have Jesus put to death....(but he broke no laws) so blasphemy, which carried the death penalty was the only charge they could bring against him.....they lied about him.....but their scriptures did not. It was clearly stated that Yahweh was “one” not “three” (Deuteronomy 6:4)

I am referring to the Jews who were the great Prophets who spoke for God all through out the Old Testament. They did not teach a Trinity or even mentioned it.

 

[Peterlag]

If that's wrong how can the Spirit be in all believers some 2.18 billion Christian maybe not all but still Three would be miniscule.

Do you mean how can all those billions of spirit filled Christians believe in something that is not real? If that is what I think you meant then we only need to ask the folks who pushed this upon us and killed those who disagreed. To this day (this very day) I am thrown off Christian websites and banned for speaking.