Dead faith.

[justbyfaith]

Once again - we will ne judged by our works (Rom. 2:6, 2 Cor. 5:10) - whether we cooperated with God's grace or whether we chose our own will over His.
It's our cooperation with His grace that counts - not any works of our own.

Our names are written in the Book of Life or not on the basis of faith alone (Romans 4:5-6, Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9).

I agree that surrender is a part of faith; which is different from saying that works are a part of faith; though surrender will lead a man to do good works. Surrender is an attitude of the heart; works are something that you do. We cannot save ourselves by what we do (see John 15:20).

 

[quietthinker]

There is no "keeping the commandments" to be accepted by God.
If you keep them all, and are not born again, you end up in Hell after you die, having kept all the commandments.
Understand?
Commandment keeping has no effect on your sin.
Its your SIN you have to deal with, to be accepted by God. How do you deal with it? You deal with it by becoming God's righteousness. This is God's gift to you, if you are born again.
So, any type of self effort, has no effect on sin...>"enduring" "abiding", "commandment keeping".."obedience".... none of this has any effect on you sin. its your sin that God has to deal with, ON THE CROSS, that is "SALVATiON.
You cannot, after you are saved, "repent and confess" yourself clean and pure.
You can't do this before you are saved, and its the same situation after you are born again.

What a muddle! you say God does not accept the keeping of his Commandments then you say then you say its your sin that needs to be dealt with to be accepted of God. I suppose you mean you are not to Sin? Isn't that the direction Jesus gave the rich young ruler?

What I hear you saying loud and clear is when we have truly accepted God's forgiveness there is not need for direction from the Law.....the implication being that Commandment breaking is not deemed sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

Here is my take on it...

As believers, we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6); so that the law no longer condemns us from the outside, as being written on tablets of stone (2 Corinthians 3:3).

It does, however, govern us from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4) as being written on fleshy tables of human hearts (again, 2 Corinthians 3:3).

 

[atpollard]

I gotta disagree with you here.

Eph. 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We agree that we are saved by God's grace. We obtain that saving grace because of the Sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary.
However - we obtain salvation through our cooperation with God's grace. THIS is what James is talking about.

Because WE are a work in progress - the Bible tells us that salvation is a lifelong process. It's not a one-time, slam dunk event.
The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14). This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured in faith to the end.

At ANY point in our life - we can turn away from God by our own doing - and the Scriptures warn us to remain faithful in order to obtain God's promises (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

I apologize for responding to your post. Had I known that you were Catholic, I would not have bothered. For a Protestant to debate Theology with a Catholic is like two men discussing Politics, only one is speaking French and the other is speaking Spanish. They both speak words, but the words they use have completely different meanings.

Just a small case in point, a Protestant speaks of salvation as the initial forgiveness of sin (related to Justification), and calls the lifelong process of being made Christlike “Sanctification” (and not salvation), and calls being made perfect when we enter heaven “Glorification” (and not salvation).

I will not even attempt to define Catholic terms, but it should be clear that we are not speaking the same theological language.

I leave you to your topic.

 

[Behold]

What a muddle! you say God does not accept the keeping of his Commandments

Its your comprehension that appears to be "muddled".
The context of what i said, is.....you dont keep commandments to be accepted by God.
God does not accept anyone based on what they DO.
He only accepts them based on "what have you done with CHRIST".

 

[mailmandan]

That's NOT what Jesus said . . .
Matt. 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Jesus NEVER knew these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 which means they were NEVER saved, regardless of how many so called wonderful works that they did or allegedly did. 'Lord, Lord,' didn't "WE" demonstrates they were trusting in works for salvation and not in Christ alone. 'Lord, Lord,' didn't "YOU" would have been the correct answer. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9' Philippians 3:9 etc..)

Again - you are misrepresenting the Catholic position for the sake of argument.

The Catholic position redefines faith and infuses works "into" salvation through faith. The end result is salvation by faith "and works," which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.

The Works that are an essential element of faith - along with belief - were prepared FOR us by God (Eph. 2:10), so we cannot take credit for them. We can only cooperate with the grace that moves us to perform them. That grace is a GIFT.

Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and also not the means or basis by which we obtain salvation. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) If we were saved by faith and works, then we could take credit for those works. You can't have it both ways. Ephesians 2:8 (AMP) - 8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. *Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

THAT'S what James is talking about (James 2:14-26).

Once again, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works. That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). *Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* It's through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of/based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet authentic faith that justifies does not remain alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Episkopos]

Its your comprehension that appears to be "muddled".
The context of what i said, is.....you dont keep commandments to be accepted by God.
God does not accept anyone based on what they DO.
He only accepts them based on "what have you done with CHRIST".

A lie. We will ONLY be judged for what we have done in these bodies. We will not be judged by what we have believed or not.

A lot of baby Christians have never been severed from their unbiblical cords.


2 Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Behold]

A lie. We will ONLY be judged for what we have done in these bodies. We will not be judged by what we have believed or not.

Very little of what you say, actually makes any sense.
Do you realize this.. ?
And none of it, is found in a NT as Paul's theology.>

For example, you just wrote another sentence that is nothing but heresy.
You said that we will not be judged by what we believed..
Yet, its what we believe, is what we TEACH and DO.... as Behavior is based on what we Believe.
So, that in itself is how we live out our Christianity.
You will be judged for being a deceiver on a forum. = For denying Grace. For teaching that God's Grace is "flesh".
You will be judged for teaching a gospel of works.
This judgement has already found you and you are not dead yet. its this.. Galatians 1:8
So, your theology, insults God and you are accountable for this behavior.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Our names are written in the Book of Life or not on the basis of faith alone (Romans 4:5-6, Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9).

I agree that surrender is a part of faith; which is different from saying that works are a part of faith; though surrender will lead a man to do good works. Surrender is an attitude of the heart; works are something that you do. We cannot save ourselves by what we do (see John 15:20).

AGAIN - I never said that we can "save ourselves".
I have repeatedly stated that the works that are an essential element of true faith belong to GOD, who created the FOR us to to. And you have repeatedly misrepresented my position.

As long as you keep doing that - we can't have an honest discussion.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I apologize for responding to your post. Had I known that you were Catholic, I would not have bothered. For a Protestant to debate Theology with a Catholic is like two men discussing Politics, only one is speaking French and the other is speaking Spanish. They both speak words, but the words they use have completely different meanings.

Just a small case in point, a Protestant speaks of salvation as the initial forgiveness of sin (related to Justification), and calls the lifelong process of being made Christlike “Sanctification” (and not salvation), and calls being made perfect when we enter heaven “Glorification” (and not salvation).

I will not even attempt to define Catholic terms, but it should be clear that we are not speaking the same theological language.

I leave you to your topic.

Salvation is NOT defined by the fact that you are Protestant and I am Catholic. It is clearly defined in Scripture - which illustrates a lifelong process, not a one-time event. This is why wew read in Acts:
Acts 2:47
And the Lord added to their number daily those who were BEING saved.

If you don't want to have further dialog, that's your choice - but don't close your mind to the truth of God's Word.

 

[BreadOfLife]

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Jesus NEVER knew these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 which means they were NEVER saved, regardless of how many so called wonderful works that they did or allegedly did. 'Lord, Lord,' didn't "WE" demonstrates they were trusting in works for salvation and not in Christ alone. 'Lord, Lord,' didn't "YOU" would have been the correct answer. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9' Philippians 3:9 etc..)
The Catholic position redefines faith and infuses works "into" salvation through faith. The end result is salvation by faith "and works," which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.

Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and also not the means or basis by which we obtain salvation. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) If we were saved by faith and works, then we could take credit for those works. You can't have it both ways. Ephesians 2:8 (AMP) - 8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. *Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

Once again, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works. That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). *Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* It's through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of/based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet authentic faith that justifies does not remain alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

And as long as you keep misrepresenting the Catholic position (above in RED) - you will never be able to have an honest, charitable conversation on the subject.

Your insistence that the Catholic Church teaches that OUR works are what save us and NOT fully trusting in Christ is patently false - and a dishonest representation of everything I have explained over the last few pages. I have been extremely explicit on what the Catholic position is - but you and some other here keep going back to the standard anti-Catholic stance that we believe in "works salvation".

The result is that it is almost a waste of time trying to have an honest conversation with people like you on the subject.
I say "almost" because nothing is impossible with God.

 

[atpollard]

Salvation is NOT defined by the fact that you are Protestant and I am Catholic. It is clearly defined in Scripture - which illustrates a lifelong process, not a one-time event. This is why wew read in Acts:
Acts 2:47
And the Lord added to their number daily those who were BEING saved.

If you don't want to have further dialog, that's your choice - but don't close your mind to the truth of God's Word.

You might want to try reading what I wrote and trying to comprehend the meaning of the words before you endeavor to become my teacher. “God gave us two ears and one mouth so we could listen twice as much as we speak; those that speak without listening are always answering questions that nobody is asking.”

I said none of what you claim I said:

I never claimed that Salvation was defined by being Protestant or Catholic.
I made no claims about what scripture teaches except to affirm it teaches Justification, Sanctification and Glorification of the Saints.
Your exegesis of Acts 2:47 is unconvincing, irrelevant and flawed.
Nothing in my post claims that I am closed to God’s word, I am just uninterested in listening to a monologue that misuses parts of a verse ripped from context to “prove” a point that the scripture was never addressing.

If you want to convince me, then PROVE from scripture that we are not saved upon our Justification.

Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. [Acts 2:37-42 NASB]​

Prove to me that those “three thousand souls” were not saved on that very day.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You might want to try reading what I wrote and trying to comprehend the meaning of the words before you endeavor to become my teacher. “God gave us two ears and one mouth so we could listen twice as much as we speak; those that speak without listening are always answering questions that nobody is asking.”

I said none of what you claim I said:

I never claimed that Salvation was defined by being Protestant or Catholic.
I made no claims about what scripture teaches except to affirm it teaches Justification, Sanctification and Glorification of the Saints.
Your exegesis of Acts 2:47 is unconvincing, irrelevant and flawed.
Nothing in my post claims that I am closed to God’s word, I am just uninterested in listening to a monologue that misuses parts of a verse ripped from context to “prove” a point that the scripture was never addressing.

If you want to convince me, then PROVE from scripture that we are not saved upon our Justification.

Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. [Acts 2:37-42 NASB]​

Prove to me that those “three thousand souls” were not saved on that very day.

First of all - I'm NOT trying to convince you of anything.
I was merely setting the record straight on the Catholic position because you guys ALWAYS seem to pervert it to further your arguments.

As to your final statement - if those 3 thousand people dropped dead right after coming to Christ - then yes, they probably would be saved, just like the Thief on the cross. HOWEVER - I already covered that several posts ago with the Catholic position on Salvation.
Here it is again for your edification:

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14). This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured in faith to the end.

At ANY point in our life - we can turn away from God by our own doing - and the Scriptures warn us to remain faithful in order to obtain God's promises (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

So - the bottom line on the Catholic position is that:
Faith is NOT simply belief.
Faith is NOT simply works.

True faith is the ongoing cooperation with God's saving grace.
Without our cooperation we cannot hope to be saved.

 

[Behold]

Salvation is NOT defined by the fact that you are Protestant and I am Catholic. It is clearly defined in Scripture - which illustrates a lifelong process, not a one-time event.

Salvation is a one time event.
Its to be born again.
This happens once.
What you are not understanding is that AFTER you are born again ONCE (Saved), you then start your discipleship.
THat, is your learning how to exist as a born again Child of God.
Its not a process of becoming born again... The process is learning how to exist AS being born again..
You have confused Salvation. (Born again) ONCE......with the experience of HOW to exist AS being born again, over your lifetime = Discipleship.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Salvation is a one time event.

They YOU disagree with Scripture (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14, Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

Its to be born again.
This happens once.
What you are not understanding is that AFTER you are born again ONCE (Saved), you then start your discipleship.
THat, is your learning how to exist as a born again Child of God.
Its not a process of becoming born again... The process is learning how to exist AS being born again..
You have confused Salvation. (Born again) ONCE......with the experience of HOW to exist AS being born again, over your lifetime = Discipleship.

I haven't "confused" anything. I have simply repeated what the Church has taught for 2000 years.
What YOU are espousing is relatively new in Church history.

If salvation happens ONCE - then the fallacy of Eternal Security is true.
However - Scripture smashes this 16th century man-made doctrine to pieces (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

Because of our fallen nature - sin continues to be a lifelong struggle for the Christian (Rom. 7:15-25, Gal. 2:11-13, 1 John 1:8).
But, because of our relationship with Christ and his eternal sacrifice - we have a way out (Matt. 6:12, James 5:16, 1 John 1:9).

 

[Behold]

They YOU disagree with Scripture (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14, Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
I haven't "confused" anything. I have simply repeated what the Church has taught for 2000 years.
What YOU are espousing is relatively new in Church history.
If salvation happens ONCE - then the fallacy of Eternal Security is true.

To post verses you can't understand, that you cut and paste from someone else's work, is not your only problem.

And that you believe you can lose your Salvation is because you are not trusting in Christ to keep you saved.
Thats a big problem.
See, you deny that Jesus THE Christ keeps you saved... This is why you can't handle the idea of "eternal security".
Its also why you think that Eternal LIFE< is temporary, and not eternal.
You do not understand that Eternal Life is JESUS Himself. And if Christ is IN YOU< then you have Eternal life.


The root of all your terrible theology, is wrong believing.
See, when you believe wrong, you come to a public forum and teach that Christ does not keep you saved, but rather YOU keep you saved.
That's what you're doing here on my Thread, by denying "eternal security". See, JESUS is eternal Security, and you deny it, so you are thereby denying Him.
Do you see yourself yet?
No..
You can't see this, because you are a Legalist. A self savor. You are trying to be your own salvation, and that is why you believe that you can "lose it"..... See, your salvation is YOU based, ...so, your faith is in YOU =, YOU can lose it.
Your faith is in YOURSELF, and that is why you are trying to keep yourself saved, instead of Trusting in Christ.

 

[atpollard]

First of all - I'm NOT trying to convince you of anything.
I was merely setting the record straight on the Catholic position because you guys ALWAYS seem to pervert it to further your arguments.

As to your final statement - if those 3 thousand people dropped dead right after coming to Christ - then yes, they probably would be saved, just like the Thief on the cross. HOWEVER - I already covered that several posts ago with the Catholic position on Salvation.
Here it is again for your edification:

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14). This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured in faith to the end.

At ANY point in our life - we can turn away from God by our own doing - and the Scriptures warn us to remain faithful in order to obtain God's promises (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

So - the bottom line on the Catholic position is that:
Faith is NOT simply belief.
Faith is NOT simply works.

True faith is the ongoing cooperation with God's saving grace.
Without our cooperation we cannot hope to be saved.

You have done an amazing job of ignoring everything that I have said in this topic and completely misrepresenting what I did say about Catholicism. Whatever “you guys” you think I am a part of, you have made false accusations against a fellow Christian and your error will be exposed at the last day, when all things are made known.

You have done yourself and the Catholic Church no favors in your quest to turn sympathetic Brothers in Christ who disagree on points of theology into enemies.

I said and mean, because it is true, that YOUR definition of “saved” is not the Protestant definition of saved (and your Catechism only clarifies what you believe, it does not prove that is what the Bible teaches). If you wish to talk TO Protestants, then you will need to learn the definition of Justification, Sanctification and Glorification and use those terms. As long as you insist on calling all three works of God upon the believer “saved”, you will only continue to talk AT Protestants.

 

[atpollard]

So - the bottom line on the Catholic position is that:
Faith is NOT simply belief.
Faith is NOT simply works.

True faith is the ongoing cooperation with God's saving grace.
Without our cooperation we cannot hope to be saved.

How is this different from the heresy of semi-Pelegianism?
Why has the Catholic Church rejected the teaching of Saint Augustine from when the Church first denounced this heresy?

 

[justbyfaith]

AGAIN - I never said that we can "save ourselves".
I have repeatedly stated that the works that are an essential element of true faith belong to GOD, who created the FOR us to to. And you have repeatedly misrepresented my position.

As long as you keep doing that - we can't have an honest discussion.

If salvation is in any way by our works, then we are in essence saving ourselves by what we do.

And, in saying that faith = belief + works, you are saying that works save us to a certain extent;

since we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

 

[BreadOfLife]

To post verses you can't understand, that you cut and paste from someone else's work, is not your only problem.

And that you believe you can lose your Salvation is because you are not trusting in Christ to keep you saved.
Thats a big problem.
See, you deny that Jesus THE Christ keeps you saved... This is why you can't handle the idea of "eternal security".
Its also why you think that Eternal LIFE< is temporary, and not eternal.
You do not understand that Eternal Life is JESUS Himself. And if Christ is IN YOU< then you have Eternal life.

The root of all your terrible theology, is wrong believing.
See, when you believe wrong, you come to a public forum and teach that Christ does not keep you saved, but rather YOU keep you saved.
That's what you're doing here on my Thread, by denying "eternal security". See, JESUS is eternal Security, and you deny it, so you are thereby denying Him.
Do you see yourself yet?
No..
You can't see this, because you are a Legalist. A self savor. You are trying to be your own salvation, and that is why you believe that you can "lose it"..... See, your salvation is YOU based, ...so, your faith is in YOU =, YOU can lose it.
Your faith is in YOURSELF, and that is why you are trying to keep yourself saved, instead of Trusting in Christ.

Cut and pasted from someone else's work??
WHAT are you talking about??

Apparetly - you haven't been reading and neither have some of your anti-Catholic friends here.
This is evidenced by the fact that you guys have completely perverted the Catholic position on salvation because it feeds your anti-Catholicism.

Let me know when you're ready to have an honest conversation - because so far, you have been completely dishonest . . .