Dead faith.

[justbyfaith]

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

So, here are three of my verses:

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here, the person who hears the words of Jesus and believes on Him who sent Him has passed from death unto everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation. "shall not" is absolute terminology; and so is, "Verily, verily, I say unto you."

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

As with John 5:24, the one who believeth on Jesus "hath" everlasting life. The nature of life that is everlasting is that it can't ever come to an end. If it did, then it was never everlasting; it should have been defined from the start as temporal.

Jhn 10:27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28, And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29, My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30, I and my Father are one.

Here is a three-fold assurance for Jesus' sheep:

1) they shall never perish. "never" means "never".

2) they have eternal life. The nature of eternal life is that it exists throughout eternity.

3) No one can snatch them out of God's hand.

With (3), a man may argue, "but you can walk away..."

I would contend that Jeremiah 32:38-40 and Psalms 19:9 show that if anyone has the fear of the LORD in them, they will never walk away. I have shown these verses in previous posts so I don't feel the need to quote them here; but I think that I will do so anyway:

Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

 

[justbyfaith]

So, apparently the Bible contradicts itself.

If your verses do indeed refute the idea of eternal security, then you have a problem, that can only be resolved if you can somehow reconcile the verses.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am also of the opinion that the Bible never contradicts itself; but that any contradictions that one might bring up are only apparent contradictions and seem to be so because the person bringing them up has not looked deeper into how they reconcile with one another.

 

[justbyfaith]

These verses (all the verses you have quoted to support "losing salvation" and my verses that support eternal security) are reconciled in my mind; and I have even told you how they are reconciled in my mind.

So the job you have to do is to think about how they relate to each other until they are no longer contradictory in your mind.

 

[Joseph77]

nvm

 

[justbyfaith]

Totally no contradiction there. (likewise, God never contradicts Himself in His Word, Plan, Purpose, no, not at all)

The only explanation is that your understanding of one or another of those two verses is badly flawed, in error.

I don't see a contradiction between them. It is reconciled in that Luke 8:13 is speaking of a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith and John 6:47 is speaking of a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14).

But how do you reconcile them if you don't see them as speaking of two different types of faith?

 

[Joseph77]

nvm

 

[justbyfaith]

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Luk 8:13, They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

If you are going to say that the person who falls away continues to have everlasting life, know that I categorically reject that idea as it is heresy.

 

[Joseph77]

nvm

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm afraid I disagree with you, @Joseph77.

It has been one of my major goals in life to reconcile apparent contradictions in the holy scriptures; and doing so has served to provide added insight into what the contrasting scriptures mean as they are applied together.

As it is written,

1Co 2:13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Normally, scriptures that seem to contradict each other, the contradiction goes away when you put them in light of a third, related scripture; or there is also the simple thinking of the mind where you consider what concept would be determined if both scriptures were true although they seem to contradict one another.

 

[Joseph77]

nvm

 

[Behold]

As for my being a Catholic - that is what I AM, not simply the name of my Church.I am a Catholic Christian.

Let me explain something to you, that you are not yet aware of, breadoflife.
In Heaven, there are no Denominations.
ZERO.
There are only the born again, the host of heaven, God, and Christ.
So, you can play your denominational game now, on earth, as you seem to need it.
You won't get to play this man-made game, in Heaven.
Believe it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Luke 8:13 is clearly about someone who has faith.

I agree that the one whose faith is nominal, lukewarm, or shallow is very likely not even born again.

Faith has to do with surrender; and works result out of that surrender. However, scripture is clear that works do not save us. Works are nearly always produced out of a living and saving faith but the scripture clearly shows that they do not have any salvation value. They are gold, silver, precious gems, wood, hay, stubble, on the day of judgment; and will result in reward after having been touched by fire, if they remain. But if someone has nothing to show for their faith in the way of works, they will still be saved, yet so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:11-15). Therefore the works that we do as believers, if they stand the test, have value in that they will mean reward for the believer. But salvation is in the foundation being laid; which is faith alone in Jesus Christ.

No – Luke 13 is about those with a “said” faith – and those with a TRUE faith. They are NOT all truly born again. Regardless – ALL of the verses I provided are warnings to the TRULY born again (Epignosis) to try to remain faithful and to NOT fall back into darkness or they will LOSE their security.

As for 1 Cor. 3:10-15 - it isn’t about some rewards other than salvation – it’s about salvation itself. This is evident by verse 15, where it emphatically states:

1 Cor. 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself WILL BE SAVED, but only as through fire.

This isn’t about extra rewards – it’s about SALVATION.

It is blindingly clear to anybody who doesn’t have an anti-Catholic bias that this is about final purification of the elect – NOT about whether we get some “extra goodies” in Heaven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So, here are three of my verses:

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here, the person who hears the words of Jesus and believes on Him who sent Him has passed from death unto everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation. "shall not" is absolute terminology; and so is, "Verily, verily, I say unto you."

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

As with John 5:24, the one who believeth on Jesus "hath" everlasting life. The nature of life that is everlasting is that it can't ever come to an end. If it did, then it was never everlasting; it should have been defined from the start as temporal.

Jhn 10:27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28, And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29, My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30, I and my Father are one.

Here is a three-fold assurance for Jesus' sheep:

1) they shall never perish. "never" means "never".

2) they have eternal life. The nature of eternal life is that it exists throughout eternity.

3) No one can snatch them out of God's hand.

With (3), a man may argue, "but you can walk away..."

I would contend that Jeremiah 32:38-40 and Psalms 19:9 show that if anyone has the fear of the LORD in them, they will never walk away. I have shown these verses in previous posts so I don't feel the need to quote them here; but I think that I will do so anyway:

Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

ALL of the verses you present would be a compelling case for Eternal Security. UNFORTUNATELY for you – they are not standalone verses.

There are MANY other verses, as I have presented, that illustrate that our security is CONDITIONAL on our cooperation. We are NOT secure regardless of how we behave. We MUST adhere to God’s guidelines in order for our Security to remain in check. Nobody can pluck us out of God’s hand – but WE can walk away by our own doing – and that’s what the following verses warn us about:
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

This false idea that we cannot lose our security is a 16th century invention and was NEVER taught by the historic Christian faith.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So, apparently the Bible contradicts itself.

If your verses do indeed refute the idea of eternal security, then you have a problem, that can only be resolved if you can somehow reconcile the verses.

It’s not about the Bible “contradicting” itself.
It’s about reading the Scriptures in their proper CONTEXT.

This is why cherry-picking verses of Scripture out of context leads to formulating UN-Biblical doctrines.

 

[justbyfaith]

Let's try another question - what do you think is contradictory or needs reconciled in any way, and why, in God's Word we are discussing?

In Luke 8:13, the person believes for a while, and then falls away....so they never had everlasting life.

But in John 6:47, believing means you currently have everlasting life....this is a life that will last for ever; and therefore it can never come to an end...which means that the person who believes can never lose his salvation.

I conclude that either a person can fall away and continue to have everlasting life (which is heresy), or else there are two different types of faith.

We MUST adhere to God’s guidelines in order for our Security to remain in check.

And we shall...which does not preclude that our salvation isn't by faith alone. For upon believing, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) and the influence of this seal (this Holy Spirit) is such that He will motivate us to automatically adhere to whatever guidelines might be there for us to hold to. See Ezekiel 36:27 "cause you" and Philippians 2:13. We will hold to these guidelines because of our faith (because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts, Romans 5:5, Galatians 3:14) whether we know what they are or not. Because love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

Nobody can pluck us out of God’s hand – but WE can walk away by our own doing – and that’s what the following verses warn us about:

I have already addressed this contention; more than once on this very thread. And you say that I ignore your posts.

 

[Joseph77]

nvm

 

[BreadOfLife]

Let me explain something to you, that you are not yet aware of, breadoflife.
In Heaven, there are no Denominations.
ZERO.
There are only the born again, the host of heaven, God, and Christ.
So, you can play your denominational game now, on earth, as you seem to need it.
You won't get to play this man-made game, in Heaven.
Believe it.

In return, perhaps I should explain something to YOU . . .

The Catholic Church is NOT a “denomination”. It is, as the eminent Protestant historian J.N.D. Kelly put it, “the ecclesiastical ecclesial tree from which Protestantism splintered.” That’s where your “denominations” began – to the tune of tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering denominations that ALL teach different doctrines based on their private interpretations of Scripture.

And believe me – there is nothing “man-made” about Christ’s Church.
HE built His Church (Matt. 16:18) – and He is GOD . . .

 

[Joseph77]

nvm

 

[justbyfaith]

It’s not about the Bible “contradicting” itself.
It’s about reading the Scriptures in their proper CONTEXT.

This is why cherry-picking verses of Scripture out of context leads to formulating UN-Biblical doctrines.

So, by all means, tell me how the immediate context of John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30, nullifies the plain meaning of those verses. Teach me!