'Death is swallowed up in victory' -When?

[Earburner]

No!! You nor I nor <we>, <born again of God's Holy Spirit> or not, EVER <<have the Victory over death>>, less than never <right now>. It's preposterous assuming-- PRIDE-- your's-- Earscreeper's PRIDE!!

...and abuse of Scripture <<1 John 5:13>>.

1 John 5[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Anyone who HAS the Gift of the Holy Spirit, HAS the Gift of HIS Eternal Life!

Rev. 20[6] Blessed and holy is he that HATH PART in the FIRST resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Col. 1[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

2 Peter 1[4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[bbyrd009]

There are as many possibilities as there are imaginations. That's my point. Each has their own imagination, or, it means a certain thing.

well, and yet there is only one possibility there really right? The one that ends up being true? So, while i sure dont know, ok, and im not meaning to advertise that i do, i would say that wadr even a rudimentary study of the rest of Scripture would provide Witnesses for/against whatever belief is held; off the cuff imo a literal rising would violate kingdom does not come by observation, "clouds" of us doing so would also violate few there are who find it, etc, but none of that is proof, right, and in the end i could be completely off base somehow and have gotten some vital aspect wrong, too.

So, briefly, really only one possibility, at least three beliefs, what are we to do right. But fwiw there are several other markers besides the best one imo, many witnesses, that might help one decide. But i guess again they are subjective, too. So after like 45 years of that ive developed the theory that that is intentional, and meant to be a reading of the reader, as i have since found others more thoughtful than i postulating. But Crowd Wisdom has been an eye opener, too, only its hard to duplicate it like who wanna be a millionaire i guess

So let's say, it means a certain thing, but you have to be "in the know" to know what that is. "The Bible is a book of riddles", I remember reading in a post. So then, one says, I've been given to understand what none of you can, and I'm here to explain it to you.

ok thing about that is, part 1 shouldnt ever engender the pov in part two, at least imo, and i think there are even vv that subtly or pointedly suggest that, if all the Jim Joneses dont? Iow that would be someone "saying they know" first off, right? That would also be a teacher, someone professing to be a teacher? Or a "superior" iow? But of course we look for confidence, charisma, etc in teachers huh.

i was trying to kinda bring out a point in that vein @ "speaking with authority," maybe now that i have a few minutes i can find a good example--seems they are few though, in our culture anyway; we typically destroy those types, not elevate them to icons. Like maybe Cain, "Grasshopper," from that old western show about the Chinese vagabond? Ha cant even recall the name of the show now.

Anyway a point is that yes, so then one might say that, there what you said at the end, but see then everyone else gets to more or less pass judgement on that, too. Or even approve of that and study under that person, or even serve that person if they like, or condemn them, or kill them, whatever?

 

[charity]

Which has a lot to do with the appeal to me of this passaged describing clouds of us being caught up.

Much love!

Hello @marks,

Forgive me, but what passage and why the appeal?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[bbyrd009]

There is something I find common in every doctrine which I find at odds with the Bible, and it's just that. There somewhere, some passage, where someone ends up saying, well, yes, it says That, but it really means This.

im fairly convinced that correct doctrine wont be countered by any Scripture, but then i have been confronted with Scripture that challenged that too, yeh. So i dunno. And i have watched three rabbis play "what if?" many times, hours at a time, enough to suggest to me that what you are saying is quite possibly intentional. The example i use being "you have to eat your vegetables" is maybe fab advice for european white ppl, but to an eskimo it is senseless, kinda thing.

so again while i dont know i would be less attuned to the actual data and more attuned to the one delivering the data, anyone telling me "yes, it says that but it really means this" i would be immediately suspicious of, for sure.

Which has a lot to do with the appeal to me of this passaged describing clouds of us being caught up.

Much love!

yes, we enjoy singing "when we all get to heaven," but few there are who find it right, and we even have the Exodus example if we wonder how few. See now we all watch for your response and go from there. But if the rabbis are any indications, there will be no Absolute conclusion, no matter long they debate i guess

And in my experience, and what I see taught in the Bible, is to not do that particular thing, but to receive the Word of God - Isn't Jesus your God? - to receive the Word of God whole and unadulterated

ha well we say that marks, but wadr there are passages embedded for that pov too, that show us to be hypocrites, and also the idiom, yikes, search "idiom in the greek new testament!" i couldnt import the search to my home page or i would have. Man, i spent hours in there, back on pages two and three. Anyway, how is it you did not know i was not talking about bread? and etc.

Iow i dont think one can "receive, unadulterated" as there are ears in between the reading and the receiving? There is a built in filter?

I find so many times, that someone will say, You can't really look at the words used, because I'm telling you what it really means.

ah, so
then imo you know immediately you have an ego on your hands, right, doesnt mean they are completely wrong, but now you have a guide imo?

The diff in water's reaction to "go!" v "let's go!" comes to mind here, dunno if that makes any sense...water crystals react differently to various phrases they are exposed to somehow, everything else being equal? Commands fracture water crystals i guess

It seems to me that you and I have fundamentally different Ideas about God, the Bible, Jesus, but at the end of the day, if we are not reading the Bible as clear language giving propositional statements as well as all the rest, then how do you tell the true from the false? Is that the same? Nothing you can really point to, you just "know"?

well...i am at the point now where i would say that anyone who says they know is in error marks, so no, i guess. The opposite of that

 

[bbyrd009]

only to those who are willing, ears to hear eyes to see, and there are few. Offering is there few take it up.

and fwiw i contemplate myself as one most reluctant to take it up, based upon the evidence, and Scripture. And i dont try to advertise that i get it or have something to teach, as i am not worthy, really. satan appears as an angel of light basically means i am quick to accept satans dialectic, and slow to accept the naive, myself, even after being made aware of them

 

[Earburner]

No!! You nor I nor <we>, <born again of God's Holy Spirit> or not, EVER <<have the Victory over death>>, less than never <right now>. It's preposterous assuming-- PRIDE-- your's-- Earscreeper's PRIDE!!

...and abuse of Scripture <<1 John 5:13>>.

All one has to do, to avoid your foul mantra of mumbo-jumbo, is READ 1 John 5:13, of which YOU SAY is a lie!

Here, I will make it easy for all:
1 John 5[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

1 John 5[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Anyone who HAS the Gift of the Holy Spirit, HAS the Gift of HIS Eternal Life!

Rev. 20[6] Blessed and holy is he that HATH PART in the FIRST resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Col. 1[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

2 Peter 1[4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The difference between <<have the Victory over death>> and <<have the Gift of HIS Eternal Life>> —bold ge— is the difference between Christ and the devil receiving his gift of eternal damnation—death, when Jesus dying the Victor, cast satan out of heaven and gave the Kingdom of his Father to them whom HE just saved through HIS Victory, the GIFT of Eternal Life.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

All one has to do, to avoid your foul mantra of mumbo-jumbo, is READ 1 John 5:13, of which YOU SAY is a lie!

Here, I will make it easy for all:
1 John 5[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Here is what you posted, chum,

Yes!! We who are born again of God's Holy Spirit have the Victory over death right now! 1 John 5:13.

<we> Subject
<have> Predicate
<Victory> Object

You don't have to make it difficult for yourself?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Yes!! We who are born again of God's Holy Spirit have the Victory over death right now! 1 John 5:13.
However, one might ask, how is death vanquished, eliminated altogether among the unsaved, IF they are allowed to remain alive and "ESCAPE" into a "Millennium on earth", fabricated by the scholars of "Religion"?
Ans. They CAN'T!!
Why?
Ans. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
In the day of Jesus' return in flaming fire,
ALL the Saints will be ressurected/transformed, but ALL the wicked unsaved, who are in disbelief of Jesus, SHALL BE DESTROYED!!
Iows, NO ONE will be left alive, in their corruptible flesh, to re-populate the earth!!
Saints- all redeemed!
Unsaved- all destroyed!

Upon Jesus' Fiery return, EVERY aspect of death, graves (hell) included, will THEN be vanquished and burned up.
There will be NO second chances for the
"condemned already". KJV.
John 3:18
2 Peter 3:10-13

At first impression this could look fine -- IF one doesn't know the earcreeper!

Earscraper is right there's no '1000 years' nonsense after the Second Coming.
But there is the resurrection of the wicked dead at the Second Coming which the earcreeper denies. The wicked "lived not again" together with the saved, it is true, but all the wicked alive at His Coming as well as resurrected at His Coming, are together cast into the pit ALIVE and living, TO DIE "the(ir) Second Death" the death in hell.

 

[Earburner]

Here is what you posted, chum,


<we> Subject
<have> Predicate
<Victory> Object

You don't have to make it difficult for yourself?

You are the one churning up the water, getting it all muddied into confusion.
Acronym: KISS, "keep it simple silly" .

 

[charity]

@Earburner
@GerhardEbersoehn

Hello there,

Is this still concerning the 1000 year reign of the Overcomer with Christ, which is called the millennium? Surely there is sufficient Scriptural evidence for that period of time, if not for the word used to describe it? (Revelation 20)

Regarding the gift of eternal life, though it is ours by promise (1 John 2:25, 1 John 5:11-12), it does not become ours in fact until the resurrection, does it?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Davy]

No Scripture. All you can actually DO, is, <<laugh>>. So obviously you don't want me to take you seriously.

You won't be laughing back at me, because what I said can be documented, and it's easy to find that info.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Chronological parallelism
The Thousand Years The First Resurrection 20:1-6 // The Everlasting Gospel 14:1-13

Christ’s Return and Judgment 14:14 // 20:11-13
Resurrection of life corn reaped 14:15,16
Resurrection of damnation winepress trod 14:17,18
Plagues chapters 15 and 16
Hell 14:19,20 // 20:14,15

In the above, distinguish the Chiasm spanning all human and earthly history since Jesus Christ :

C - C The Thousand Years The First Resurrection 20:1-6 // The Everlasting Gospel 14:1-13

B - B Christ’s Return and Judgement 14:14 // 20:11-13

A - A Resurrection of life corn reaped 14:15,16
A - A Resurrection of damnation winepress trod 14:17,18

B - B Plagues chapters 15 and 16

C - C Hell 14:19,20 // 20:14,15

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The First Resurrection-Thousand Years
Appendix to ‘Divine Priest’ (Book 6)
18 October 2007
http://www.biblestudents.co.za

“The First Resurrection Thousand Years”

Resurrection, Saints and Wicked

The Saints –

Their Past:
in Revelation 20:4c –
“They lived / came to life”-‘edzehsan’

parallel with their Past
in John 5:24-25c –
“Now” ... “they shall live”- ‘dzehsohsin’
(“Blessed and holy he that hath Part In The First Resurrection – on such the second death hath no power ...” Rv20:6a)

Their Future:
in John 5:28-29a =
“The hour is coming in which all the dead that are in the graves shall hear His Voice, and shall come forth: They that have done good, unto the resurrection of Life”

parallel with their Future
in Revelation 20:7-15 –
“And when the thousand years were expired ... I saw a white throne and Him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ... I saw the dead stand before God; and the books were opened. And another Book was opened, The Book of Life ... the sea gave, and hell delivered up the dead ... and the dead were judged ... according to their works” ...

The Wicked –

“The rest of the dead”, ‘on such as the second death hath power...”, Rv20:7-10, 14-15 –

Their Past:
in Revelation 20:5a –
“They lived not”-‘ouk edzehsan’

parallel with their Past
in John 5:24-25 –
They had no Part In The First Resurrection. Omission; they had no part in Jn5:24-25. No parallel found!

Their Future:
in John 5:28-29b –
“The hour is coming in which all the dead that are in the graves shall hear His Voice, and shall come forth ... they that hath done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

parallel with their Future
in Revelation 20:7-15,
“And when the thousand years were expired ... I saw a white throne and Him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ... I saw the dead stand before God; and the books were opened. And another Book was opened, The Book of Life ... the sea gave, and hell delivered up the dead ... and the dead were judged ... according to their works ... And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire ... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.”
“After this I saw a new heaven and a new earth.”

“From-the-Pit”-“Upon-Thrones”, before, “From-the-Graves”-“Into-the-Lake”!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Is this still concerning the 1000 year reign of the Overcomer with Christ, which is called the millennium? Surely there is sufficient Scriptural evidence for that period of time, if not for the word used to describe it? (Revelation 20)

Call <<that period of time>>, that period, and don't say or think <time> but "Thousand years, this, the First Resurrection" because that is what John called that period or dispensation or "Reign" of Christ and his saints.

 

[Earburner]

At first impression this could look fine -- IF one doesn't know the earcreeper!

Earscraper is right there's no '1000 years' nonsense after the Second Coming.
But there is the resurrection of the wicked dead at the Second Coming which the earcreeper denies. The wicked "lived not again" together with the saved, it is true, but all the wicked alive at His Coming as well as resurrected at His Coming, are together cast into the pit ALIVE and living, TO DIE "the(ir) Second Death" the death in hell.

Not so fast "GE",
Surely, as we both are "amillennial" , we fully understand that the symbolic age of "a thousand years" speaks of the Age of God's Grace through Jesus, beginning on the Day of Pentecost to the present.

When we look at the context of Rev. 20:1-6 (KJV only), we can see that satan was bound at the Cross of Christ, the saints are persecuted/killed during the Age of Grace, which is during the time of the Early church, Middle church and the Latter church periods.
However, I believe that you have a few things amiss.
1. You have made a false assumption by saying: "the wicked lived not again together with the saved".
That IS NOT what the KJV says!
Rev. 20[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until [after] the thousand years [of God's Grace] were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Q. Which was the first resurrection?
1. During the time, when the rest of the dead saints lived not again, or
2. Until [after] the thousand years were finished?
The Ans. Is #1 and #2.
Blessed and holy is he, that hath part in the first resurrection...
Is not Jesus the FIRST resurrection"
Is He not the FIRSTborn from the dead?
Are you not a "PARTaker of the divine nature"?
Therefore, " blessed and holy is he who HATH PART in the FIRST resurrection", who is Christ.

Q. Now, which dead Lived not again, until the thousand years were finished?
1. The dead in Christ, or
2. The wicked dead?
The Ans. Is #1
After the Age of God's Grace (the symbolic thousand years), Jesus shall return in the fullness of His visible Glory, in flaming Fire, taking vengeance on all who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ... 2 Thes. 1:8/ ("and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 1 Thes. 4:16)

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 Thes. 4:16-17
When? After "the thousand years", when God's Grace is finished.

2. You neglected to make it clear, of what and where hell is.
Hell is/are the graves! They are all located in the earth. Hell will be in the Lake of fire, because hell is/are the graves in the earth. ...the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.", by
the Eternal Presence of Christ, in His (Eternal flaming) fire! 2 Peter 2:10

3. Finally, you then projected "the second death" far into the future, as if it is a separate event, after the Lord returns.

The second death, is the death of ALL bodies of flesh and Blood upon Christ's return.
For the saved, it will be Resurrection unto Eternal Life and Immortalty, for both the dead in Christ, and we who are alive at his appearing. No more dieing!

For the unsaved, it will be unto the destruction of eternal death, for both the unsaved dead, and those who are alive and remain unsaved, at His appearing.
No more dieing!
And for sure, there will be no one left, for
re-populating the earth, because none shall escape!

The totality of "death" will have been swallowed up in victory (ended), on both sides, by Christ!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Not so fast "GE",
Surely, as we both are "amillennial" , we fully understand that the symbolic age of "a thousand years" speaks of the Age of God's Grace through Jesus, beginning on the Day of Pentecost to the present.

When we look at the context of Rev. 20:1-6 (KJV only), we can see that satan was bound at the Cross of Christ, the saints are persecuted/killed during the Age of Grace, which is during the time of the Early church, Middle church and the Latter church periods.
However, I believe that you have a few things amiss.
1. You have made a false assumption by saying: "the wicked lived not again together with the saved".
That IS NOT what the KJV says!
Rev. 20[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until [after] the thousand years [of God's Grace] were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Q. Which was the first resurrection?
1. During the time, when the rest of the dead saints lived not again, or
2. Until [after] the thousand years were finished?
The Ans. Is #1 and #2.
Blessed and holy is he, that hath part in the first resurrection...
Is not Jesus the FIRST resurrection"
Is He not the FIRSTborn from the dead?
Are you not a "PARTaker of the divine nature"?
Therefore, " blessed and holy is he who HATH PART in the FIRST resurrection", who is Christ.

Q. Now, which dead Lived not again, until the thousand years were finished?
1. The dead in Christ, or
2. The wicked dead?
The Ans. Is #1
After the Age of God's Grace (the symbolic thousand years), Jesus shall return in the fullness of His visible Glory, in flaming Fire, taking vengeance on all who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ... 2 Thes. 1:8/ ("and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 1 Thes. 4:16)

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 Thes. 4:16-17
When? After "the thousand years", when God's Grace is finished.

2. You neglected to make it clear, of what and where hell is.
Hell is/are the graves! They are all located in the earth. Hell will be in the Lake of fire, because hell is/are the graves in the earth. ...the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.", by
the Eternal Presence of Christ, in His (Eternal flaming) fire! 2 Peter 2:10

3. Finally, you then projected "the second death" far into the future, as if it is a separate event, after the Lord returns.

The second death, is the death of ALL bodies of flesh and Blood upon Christ's return.
For the saved, it will be Resurrection unto Eternal Life and Immortalty, for both the dead in Christ, and we who are alive at his appearing. No more dieing!

For the unsaved, it will be unto the destruction of eternal death, for both the unsaved dead, and those who are alive and remain unsaved, at His appearing.
No more dieing!
And for sure, there will be no one left, for
re-populating the earth, because none shall escape!

The totality of "death" will have been swallowed up in victory (ended), on both sides, by Christ!

Thanks for this post done in such good spirit I feel ashamed. But for now, it's first my dogs for a walk. Then I'll have to sit down and properly pay attention to your dissertation. God bless

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hello @Earburner,

I am sorry that I did not respond to these posts of yours. I don't know why. I must have got distracted, left the thread, and have not been back until now. These entries were on page 10, and I see that the subject of the thread has been derailed since then.

I have to go off-line now, but hope to come back and address the points you have raised here.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I take great comfort in reading your posts. Keep them coming. Thank-you for your clarity and attention to the passage and your patience.

 

[Earburner]

@Earburner
@GerhardEbersoehn

Hello there,

Is this still concerning the 1000 year reign of the Overcomer with Christ, which is called the millennium? Surely there is sufficient Scriptural evidence for that period of time, if not for the word used to describe it? (Revelation 20)

Regarding the gift of eternal life, though it is ours by promise (1 John 2:25, 1 John 5:11-12), it does not become ours in fact until the resurrection, does it?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi, I don't want drag this out, but we all need to go back and re-center the core of our understandings, and why there is conflict with others and their understandings.

I think most Christians read NT prophecy through the filter of numerous preconceived theories, of which many false doctrines have been concocted, promoted and then accepted by the majority of the churches as truth.

By having it wrong from the get-go, at the foundation, well the story is, everything else in the building must be manipulated and manuevered, and still the roof doesn't fit!

In an analogy, we can draw a circle on a flat surface, establish its perfect center, and in the direction of North, all of us with eyes closed and pen in hand, can draw a line to the top of the outer perimeter of that circle very accurately, being off only a couple of degrees. The problem with that is, North is not at the top of any circle, until a Compass is applied for the true orientation.
So then, by one word, I led all astray by causing all to assume that North is always at the "top" of a circle.

Jesus said in John 11[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus, in the Eternity of Himself made to be flesh, is talking to people who are completely mortal, knowing nothing other than, that death is death!
But then said: "whosoever liveth and believeth in me
shall never die".

Honestly, from our mortal perspective, there are only two ways to think on that.
In the moment of death, through faith in Jesus, we will either continue to live on into eternity with our flesh and blood body, or we will live on, leaving this body behind?

So then, that begs the real question, for correct orientation, right out of the gate:
**Was Adam given an eternal soul, or is it that Adam became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 KJV.
According to the KJV, there was nothing eternal, or eternally given to Adam by the Eternal God. However, the majority have assumed otherwise, and as a result think that they are heading "North".

**Note: Moses, the author of Genesis, had no idea or knowledge about the gaseous elements, that make up our air/atmosphere.
As a result, he called it "the breath of life".

Today, we all know that it is Oxygen that is required in our blood, that keeps our mortal flesh alive! Leviticus 17:11a
No Oxygen? Then there will be NO life, no matter what one breathes!