'Death is swallowed up in victory' -When?

[charity]

Hello charity
We know that Jesus conquered death , sin , and the grave. And we are in Him.
Therefore spiritually we have also conquered death.

Death no longer stings. when our body dies in this realm we just move from life to life.
We step out of this old flesh like taking off our coat , and skip free into the next and greater life.
His life is in us now...right now. Victory is NOW! I’m not waiting for ‘life’ to start....

Hi Chris
To me the whole thing is hung on what or who we believe "you" is.
I am not my body, "I" am what is living IN my body. The body is just the vehicle which gets me about while stuck in Time.
So yes, the "I" which lives within is Spirit , therefore I have a life and in the next world, that life will no longer be caged but set free in all of His fulness.

Death has been swallowed up in His life.

I believe we move from glory to glory....therefore I do not believe is some future rapture of 'flying away' somewhere. We live, move and have our being in the Spirit...not in literal clouds. But, I digress...

Hello @Helen,

Does this mean that you do not believe in the necessity for a literal resurrection?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Yes, there were, 'souls' or 'persons' under the altar in the vision John was given of the day of the Lord. Yet, there are no such thing as material souls, able to talk without the bodily organs of speech.

Hi Chris,

I'm sorry, I'm trying to follow your thought here. In this part above it sounds like you are saying that John did see souls under the altar,

These were dead persons personified,

In this part though it seems you are saying they weren't really people, rather the personification of people who were dead, or in other words, a fiction? People who aren't really there, doing what they couldn't do anyway?

Much love!

 

[charity]

Hi Chris,

I'm sorry, I'm trying to follow your thought here. In this part above it sounds like you are saying that John did see souls under the altar,

In this part though it seems you are saying they weren't really people, rather the personification of people who were dead, or in other words, a fiction? People who aren't really there, doing what they couldn't do anyway?

Much love!

Hi @Mark,

The point being made initially in relation to Revelation 6:9-10, was that the word 'soul' was being used figuratively of 'persons'. That these persons were dead, having been beheaded, makes their ability to speak impossible. So what John sees, in vision, is the personification of these people, not them in the flesh. God heard the blood of Abel crying out of the ground to Him, in Genesis 4:10: and here the dead are said to cry out to Him. It is figurative, rather than literal. It is not a fiction though, but Divine fact.

This is my own understanding, @Mark, and therefore flawed.

Forgive me.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Hi @Mark,

The point being made initially in relation to Revelation 6:9-10, was that the word 'soul' was being used figuratively of 'persons'. That these persons were dead, having been beheaded, makes their ability to speak impossible. So what John sees, in vision, is the personification of these people, not them in the flesh. God heard the blood of Abel crying out of the ground to Him, in Genesis 4:10: and here the dead are said to cry out to Him. It is figurative, rather than literal. It is not a fiction though, but Divine fact.

This is my own understanding, @Mark, and therefore flawed.

Forgive me.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I think Abel's blood was actually in the ground though, and testified of Cain's sin.

Just like the song of Moses for when the Israelites went after other gods, the song was to remind them that the true God gave them the land from these false gods so what are you thinking?

I've never said that this was people 'in the flesh'. Naturally that would not be the case.

God is spirit, and people have heard His voice, so I'm thinking that spirits can speak somehow and be heard. Angels likewise speak and are heard.

Much love!

 

[charity]

I think Abel's blood was actually in the ground though, and testified of Cain's sin.

Just like the song of Moses for when the Israelites went after other gods, the song was to remind them that the true God gave them the land from these false gods so what are you thinking?

I've never said that this was people 'in the flesh'. Naturally that would not be the case.

God is spirit, and people have heard His voice, so I'm thinking that spirits can speak somehow and be heard. Angels likewise speak and are heard.

Much love!

'What profit is there in my blood,
when I go down to the pit?
Shall the dust praise thee?
shall it declare thy truth?'
(Psa 30:9)

Hello @marks,

Your last sentence expresses what I feared would be the argument made by those who believe that the spirit goes on after death living and communicating, having a spiritual form and substance. This is why I tried to make clear that these were not 'disembodied souls', but that the word 'souls' in this case means 'persons'.

* In Revelation I believe that God has endeavoured to explain the inexplicable to us, in ways that we can understand, using imagery to express the truth He wishes to convey. Therefore as with the transfiguration (Matthew 17:9 AV), it must be remembered that these are visions, and things can be depicted in vision form which cannot in natural sight.

* The spirit of man which goes back to God, is literally the breath of life. The organs for sight, hearing and speech go back to the dust with the body, the brain also of course which interprets what it receives through these senses, and thinks and feels, all has gone back to the dust. The spiritual body, like that of the risen Lord, which consisted of flesh and bone, will be ours at the resurrection. Only then will we receive the gift of eternal life. There is no intermediary state in which the spirit exists apart from the body.

* I speak of these things with fear and trembling, because this is the Word of God, and I am a mere work of His creation. If I have an incorrect understanding of the visions of Revelation, I pray that He will show me, and will forgive my attempt to put into words my understanding of these things. I say this with the assurance that He will do both, as my Heavenly Father. (Praise His Name!)

* I will close with the words of Hezekiah, in Isaiah 38:16-19, when the Lord granted him life:-

'O Lord, by these things men live,
.. and in all these things is the life of my spirit:
.... so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live.
...... Behold, for peace I had great bitterness:
........ but Thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption:
.......... for thou hast cast all my sins behind Thy back.
For the grave cannot praise Thee,
.. death can not celebrate Thee:
.... they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth.
The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day:
the father to the children shall make known Thy Truth.'

Praise God!

Thank you, marks
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[brionne]

'Behold, I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.

'O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brethren,
be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord,
forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.'
(1 Corinthians 15:55)

Hello there,

I have begun a study on resurrection, and began with reading through 1 Corinthians 15, a wonderful chapter on that subject.

The verses above show clearly that it is at the moment of our resurrection from the dead that death for us will be swallowed up in victory. Not at the moment of our death, but at our resurrection from the dead, which is yet to come.

Do you have any comment.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Many would say that this passage is referring to the time when Christs brothers are taken up to heaven...some call it the 'rapture'

 

[charity]

Many would say that this passage is referring to the time when Christs brothers are taken up to heaven...some call it the 'rapture'

Hello @brionne

What a lovely user name.

Yes it is descriptive of the change that will take place in the bodies of both those who will be 'asleep in Christ' at that time, and those who are 'alive and remain' unto the Lord's coming. Though I believe it will be the experience of all who believe regardless of when they are resurrected, for that is only one of the resurrections that will take place, isn't it?

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our risen Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[marks]

Therefore as with the transfiguration (Matthew 17:9 AV), it must be remembered that these are visions, and things can be depicted in vision form which cannot in natural sight.

I was thinking of the transfiguration also, last night.



"And be perceiving!" Moses and Elijah talking together with Jesus were seen by them, that is, Peter, James, and John.

That's the straightforward message of this passage, which makes a simple declarative statement. But you are saying this isn't so, that they didn't actually see Moses and Elijah, they only thought that they did. There were shown something, but not the Actual Moses and Elijah. This is correct?

The way the passage reads it seems to me is that they saw the real Moses and Elijah, and that they were speaking with Jesus.

Much love!

 

[charity]

I was thinking of the transfiguration also, last night.

View attachment 9596

"And be perceiving!" Moses and Elijah talking together with Jesus were seen by them, that is, Peter, James, and John.

That's the straightforward message of this passage, which makes a simple declarative statement. But you are saying this isn't so, that they didn't actually see Moses and Elijah, they only thought that they did. There were shown something, but not the Actual Moses and Elijah. This is correct?

The way the passage reads it seems to me is that they saw the real Moses and Elijah, and that they were speaking with Jesus.

Much love!

'And as they came down from the mountain,
Jesus charged them, saying,
Tell the vision to no man,
until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.'
(Mat 17:9)

Hello @marks,

I have said no such thing! You really disappoint me, marks, for I thought that you, who dislike being misrepresented, would not be the one to misrepresent others, but you are doing that to me, and have done so in more than one response so far in this thread.

I gave you a reference in which Jesus told the disciples that it was a vision (Matthew 17:9). Also, in Matthew 16:27-28, we are told what the three disciples were actually witnessing:-

'For the Son of man shall come
in the glory of His Father with His angels;
and then He shall reward every man according to His works.
Verily I say unto you,
There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death,
till they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom.'
(Mat 16:27-28)

* Peter, James and John were seeing the Lord transformed into the glory of the Son of man coming in His Kingdom, as the Lord had promised six days earlier. It was a prophetic vision of what was yet to come. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 referring to the scene they witnessed upon the mount, Peter tells us that they were eye witnesses of His glory.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

I have said no such thing! You really disappoint me, marks, for I thought that you, who dislike being misrepresented, would not be the one to misrepresent others, but you are doing that to me, and have done so in more than one response so far in this thread.

Not intentionally, I'd hope you've come to know me better than that!



That's why I keep asking questions and restating.

If I'm mistaken correct me please, but no need to think I'm doing this deliberately.

Much love!

 

[marks]

'And as they came down from the mountain,
Jesus charged them, saying,
Tell the vision to no man,
until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.'
(Mat 17:9)

Hello @marks,

I have said no such thing! You really disappoint me, marks, for I thought that you, who dislike being misrepresented, would not be the one to misrepresent others, but you are doing that to me, and have done so in more than one response so far in this thread.

I gave you a reference in which Jesus told the disciples that it was a vision (Matthew 17:9). Also, in Matthew 16:27-28, we are told what the three disciples were actually witnessing:-

'For the Son of man shall come
in the glory of His Father with His angels;
and then He shall reward every man according to His works.
Verily I say unto you,
There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death,
till they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom.'
(Mat 16:27-28)

* Peter, James and John were seeing the Lord transformed into the glory of the Son of man coming in His Kingdom, as the Lord had promised six days earlier. It was a prophetic vision of what was yet to come. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 referring to the scene they witnessed upon the mount, Peter tells us that they were eye witnesses of His glory.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Calling something a vision doesn't automatically mean that they saw something that wasn't there, or was a supernatural seeing of something somewhere else or some other time. It just means the seeing of what you saw.

My point is that the passages states that they saw Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus. I assert that what they saw was happening at that time. The language indicates that to me.

My understanding of your view is that Moses and Elijah were not speaking with Jesus on that mount, and that what Peter and James and John saw was something that wasn't actually happening in that time, in that place, but was a "supernatural seeing" of something else.

Is this a correct restatement of your view?

Much love!

 

[charity]

Not intentionally, I'd hope you've come to know me better than that!



That's why I keep asking questions and restating.

If I'm mistaken correct me please, but no need to think I'm doing this deliberately.

Much love!

Hello @marks,

I thought it seemed out of character, that is why it has been such a shock to see you doing it.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[charity]

Calling something a vision doesn't automatically mean that they saw something that wasn't there, or was a supernatural seeing of something somewhere else or some other time. It just means the seeing of what you saw.

My point is that the passages states that they saw Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus. I assert that what they saw was happening at that time. The language indicates that to me.

My understanding of your view is that Moses and Elijah were not speaking with Jesus on that mount, and that what Peter and James and John saw was something that wasn't actually happening in that time, in that place, but was a "supernatural seeing" of something else.

Is this a correct restatement of your view?

Much love!

Hi @marks

Yes, it was happening at that time, before their eyes, but it was a vision. They did see Moses and Elijah talking to the Lord, but it was the fulfilment of what the Lord had told them six days before (Matthew 16:27-28). That they should see His glory, the glory of the Son of Man coming in His glory. Which is yet to come.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Hello @marks,

I thought it seemed out of character, that is why it has been such a shock to see you doing it.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
our Lord and Head.
Chris

I restate my understanding of what someone is saying in order to both verify it and challenge it, which is why I sometimes may seem a little pointed.

Much love!

 

[charity]

Matthew 17:1-9; Mark 9:2-13; Luke 9:28-36; 2 Peter 1:16-21

'And as they came down from the mountain,
Jesus charged them, saying,
Tell the vision (G3705) to no man,
until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.'
(Mat 17:9)

Hello @marks,

Though I do still believe that this was a vision, it is only in Matthew 17:9, that the Lord refers to what had been seen by the three disciples as a vision. In the account given by Mark and Luke it is not said.

In Luke we are told what Elijah and Moses were talking about with the Lord (Luke 9:28-36) and they were talking to Him of His coming death at Jerusalem: but I am still of the mind that what the disciples saw was a prophetic vision, in fulfilment of the Lord's promise in Matthew 16:27-28. For they did indeed see His glory, and were eye-witnesses of His majesty.

So, I will leave it there, @marks, may the Lord be the arbiter.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Matthew 17:1-9; Mark 9:2-13; Luke 9:28-36; 2 Peter 1:16-21

'And as they came down from the mountain,
Jesus charged them, saying,
Tell the vision (G3705) to no man,
until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.'
(Mat 17:9)

Hello @marks,

Though I do still believe that this was a vision, it is only in Matthew 17:9, that the Lord refers to what had been seen by the three disciples as a vision. In the account given by Mark and Luke it is not said.

In Luke we are told what Elijah and Moses were talking about with the Lord (Luke 9:28-36) and they were talking to Him of His coming death at Jerusalem: but I am still of the mind that what the disciples saw was a prophetic vision, in fulfilment of the Lord's promise in Matthew 16:27-28. For they did indeed see His glory, and were eye-witnesses of His majesty.

So, I will leave it there, @marks, may the Lord be the arbiter.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

That's an interesting fact you bring up, that they were speaking of something that was yet to happen at that time. This makes it seem all the more to me that it was actually happening then.

It's the same thing with Saul and Samuel, if I just read it the way it's written there seems only one conclusion.

I appreciate the discussion!

Much love!

 

[charity]

Hello once again, @marks

Staying with the Transfiguration for one more time, can I just quote something that I read concerning what Peter says in 2 Peter 1:16:-

'Peter says, by Divine inspiration, that, when he made known to them the Transfiguration he had not followed cleverly-imagined myths. And he goes on to tell them that beside these historic facts which he had conveyed to them, as being what he had himself seen and heard, 'we have also the prophetic word (which is) more sure, to which ye do well to take heed in your hearts, as unto a light shining in a dark place, until the Day-dawn and the Day-Star arise' (v.19). This implies that what he had seen in the holy mount, beside being historic, was also 'prophetic' of (the) power, even (the) parousia or coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'​

* So it would seem that I am not alone.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Hello once again, @marks

Staying with the Transfiguration for one more time, can I just quote something that I read concerning what Peter says in 1 Peter 1:16:-

'Peter says, by Divine inspiration, that, when he made known to them the Transfiguration he had not followed cleverly-imagined myths. And he goes on to tell them that beside these historic facts which he had conveyed to them, as being what he had himself seen and heard, 'we have also the prophetic word (which is) more sure, to which ye do well to take heed in your hearts, as unto a light shining in a dark place, until the Day-dawn and the Day-Star arise' (v.19). This implies that what he had seen in the holy mount, beside being historic, was also 'prophetic' of (the) power, even 9the) parousia or coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Or, by a figure of speech in which two things are said and one thing intended, 'the power, yea, coming power, of the Lord Jesus.'​

* So it would seem that I am not the only one who holds this view.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

2 Peter 1
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I think the prophecy Peter was referring to what in the Scriptures.

Much love!

 

[charity]

'For we have not followed cunningly devised fables,
.. when we made known unto you
.... the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
...... but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
For He received from God the Father honour and glory,
.. when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory,
.... "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
And this voice which came from heaven we heard,
when we were with Him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
whereunto ye do well that ye take heed,
as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.'
(2 Peter 1:16-21)

Thank you, @marks,

* Yes, it is in the Scriptures.
* I have enjoyed our discussion too.
There is so much more to what happened on the mount of Transfiguration than we realise.
It is certainly worthy of more study.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Hello again,

The moment when death is swallowed up in victory, could not be stated more clearly than it is in 1 Corinthians 15:53-55:-

'For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory?'

* It happens when we are resurrected out from among the dead by the power of God.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris