CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
They have to come back with Jesus to be joined to their immortal body. After all, Jesus will be on earth for 1000 years.
'Death is swallowed up in victory' -When?
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They have to come back with Jesus to be joined to their immortal body. After all, Jesus will be on earth for 1000 years.
Hi Chris,
One thing I appreciate in these discussions is that it can illuminate how people read the Bible. I find that the differences in views nearly always, if someone is willing to have a productive discussion about something, it comes down to one of two things.
One being that there is a place in a verse where one person takes a more literal definition, while the other use a less literal definition, or speak of a symbolic application.
The other being where two passages appear to be saying different things, one person will give more weight to one, while the other gives more weight to another.
Much love!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Timtofly....the soul is not a seperate conscious entity in itself....it is a way of expressing what we are ie, we are a soul or a being, we don't have them, we are human beings or living souls.
Re the spirit....This word can be applied differently depending on context, for instance; the bottle is full of spirits or the spirit of the times or the child is in high spirits or the spirit of Christmas and so on.....this doesn't mean that the bottle has spirits in it in the sense of entities. It's not referring to an entity/entities inside anything that has a consciousness of its own independence. its speaking of of the nature of the things (person or event). When scripture speaks of the spirit of a person its talking of the essence of how they operate (do they have integrity or do they not) like the spirit of Job or the spirit of his friends or the spirit of let's say Hitler vs the spirit of Mother Theresa.
There are no disembodied spirits in Heaven....this view has been stitched from a heathen paradigm and migrated into the 'Christian' system.
When God created man he didn't put several entities in him ie a spirit and a soul wrapped in a body, no no, he made him a singular person or if you like a singular entity. He formed the frame then animated it with the very life that he himself is and man became a living soul....a living human being.
If this basic construction of man is not understood one ends up trying to understand these matters backwards. If one starts with the assumption that spirit and soul are entities in their own right (as do the heathens) we make a terrible mess of the whole thing.
When a person dies the body goes back to the elements from which it came and the life force; the energy that animated the body; the breath goes back to God who gave it.
Death is the description of the cessation of life....no consciousness, no disembodied spirits floating around in heaven or hell or anywhere......just straight forward end of the road.....till the resurrection of which there will be two, one for the righteous and one for the wicked occurring at different times.
In the resurrections God will reanimate the dust of those who have died.....the righteous will awake from their grave glorified as was Jesus when he arose. (made like unto his glorious body)
The wicked, when they are called will come forth from the graves in the same condition they entered them with the same animosity towards God as when they went into the grave. They will be brought forth to receive their sentence of eternal separation from life.....they will die what the scripture refers to as the second death.
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This is completely incorrect. Yes we are living souls, but the soul is indeed a separate entity from the body, and the spirit is a separate entity from the soul (although closely joined to it).
Here's the biblical evidence, but chances are you will ignore it in order to hold on to your false theology about the soul.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6:9,10).
These saints had been "slain" -- killed and martyred -- therefore their bodies were in their graves. Yet their souls were in Heaven as separate entities crying out to God, and also recognized as those very same individuals.
This blows the false doctrine of Soul Sleep to SMITHEREENS.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It is not incorrect neither does it blow anything anywhere Enoch, in fact what it does is show the weakness of the position you hold by interpreting what is allegorical into the literal.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Why did you just explain all this to me in the same terms the pagans, whom you just warned against, use?
You basically just said the same thing, I did, but I was going by what the Bible says. The Bible says that flesh cannot enter heaven, yet you claim the body does. The spirit is the robe of white. Now you claim this spirit does not exist, based only on the fact the pagans claim there are spirits? I think that demons are very real. God indicates they are the robes that are no longer white. You can look up those verses on demons if you care to. God states as with the breath of life, that is our soul. It has no shape? Except God calls it a ghost. If a ghost can have shape and can be recognized, as in the calling forth of Samuel, by a witch, do we call God a liar?
God gave the dust, the image, shape. But all the body of dust, can do, is go back to dust. The spirit has the shape of a robe. The soul has the shape, and called a ghost. All those shapes are found in God's Word, because God created them to be just what they are.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I really don't get what you're trying to say here Timtofly. It appears you are confused as to what I have said. Read the posts again and see if things are clearer.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Thanks for calling me a liar, and then use the text I use to make my point. How does looking in a mirror work?
The spirit is also there in those verses as the robes of white. Now you can figure out if those are new robes or the ones that have been them since birth in God's presence.
Try explaining to those who die without being martyrs, they are not in the same group. Is it crazy to think that only martyrs are the elect? At least, hopefully, the passage in Revelation 6, may start to resemble the rapture for more of those in Christ, at least while they are alive. All the dead know the truth.
I was responding to QuietThinker, not to you. I don't even know what point you were making.
Sure. Any time it does not fit your theology it is allegorical. And that one passage does blow the theory of Soul Sleep to smithereens.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No, the beloved disciple, John, is describing the literal, in figurative terms. Why do you make up your own literal interpretation? Why literally say it is figurative? The truth is that it is figurative and you cannot just make up more figurative interpretations. God is telling us that is our soul and spirit.
You accused me of being pagan, when I use scriptural terms. Then you use pagan terms to tell me the same thing I just got done posting.
The only difference is you think we are just a dead body, that gets re-animated. Which is a pagan term. The dust does not get re-animated. Paul says the dead in Christ rise first. Yes, the soul rose to heaven on point of death. They are in Paradise, under the alter. That is not pagan. That is in the Bible. John said that the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, slain from before this reality was created, had a book. The Lamb's book of life. The Atonement put every single name of every single descendant of Adam. Also all the sons of God. The seals in Revelation 6, is that book being unsealed. All have been sealed in the book and still are. After the 7th seal is open, only then, will names be blotted out. So those souls under the alter, are all saints dead from the first son of Adam placed there, until the last one martyred this, or next year, or died from natural causes. Dying of natural causes, may be over, but lots of people over 100 are dying these days.
The rest of the dead, not saints, because they rejected God, and thought they could save themselves by works, are in hell. They will be there until the last throne judgment, after the last 1000 years. If those years are not literal for some, I guess they can find a place to sleep for 1000 years?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
My mind saw my posting name and assumed things. I apologize if it was taken wrong. It is interesting that no one has yet seen the opening of seals 5 and 6 as Paul's rapture from Heaven's point of view.
My exuberance out did it's self.
I guess my hope, faith, and trust will remain in tact, until the truth is finally understood by the living church.
'And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar
the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
How long, O Lord, holy and true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood
on them that dwell on the earth?'
(Rev 6:9-10)
Hello @Enoch111,
I would like to come in here, if I may, in regard to your words concerning Revelation 6:9-10 in reply#104. The word 'souls' in verse 9, is being used figuratively, and refers to 'persons', as it often does: like when we talk of a population of people comprising so many 'souls' (ie., persons).
John, in Revelation 6, saw (in a vision) those that had been slain for the word of God. He also hears what they say. Now, the dead are incapable of speech, having no vocal organs, so, these martyred saints were personified and represented as waiting, in this vision; for John sees them again (in vision) in Revelation 20:4, and then, 'they lived again' in the first resurrection. 'The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished '(Revelation 20:5).
* So this does not 'blow to smithereens' the words of @quietthinker, as you suggest in reply#104.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
I saw under the altar
the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
How long, O Lord, holy and true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood
on them that dwell on the earth?'
(Rev 6:9-10)
Hello @Enoch111,
I would like to come in here, if I may, in regard to your words concerning Revelation 6:9-10 in reply#104. The word 'souls' in verse 9, is being used figuratively, and refers to 'persons', as it often does: like when we talk of a population of people comprising so many 'souls' (ie., persons).
John, in Revelation 6, saw (in a vision) those that had been slain for the word of God. He also hears what they say. Now, the dead are incapable of speech, having no vocal organs, so, these martyred saints were personified and represented as waiting, in this vision; for John sees them again (in vision) in Revelation 20:4, and then, 'they lived again' in the first resurrection. 'The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished '(Revelation 20:5).
* So this does not 'blow to smithereens' the words of @quietthinker, as you suggest in reply#104.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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I do.
As well as the innumerable multitude before the throne in chapter 7 being the raptured church.
And the earthquake of the 6th seal is the same earthquake as in Ezekiel 38.
But to not derail this thread, you can copy this post to a new thread if you wish to discuss.
Much love!
'And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar
the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
How long, O Lord, holy and true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood
on them that dwell on the earth?'
(Rev 6:9-10)
Hello there, @marks,
Yes, there were, 'souls' or 'persons' under the altar in the vision John was given of the day of the Lord. Yet, there are no such thing as material souls, able to talk without the bodily organs of speech. So, their condition here as 'dead' is set in definite contrast to their condition when afterwards raised: Revelation 20:4 shows that in 6:9 they could not be reigning with Christ till they 'lived again.' Till then they must wait, as the answer to their cry declares.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You can't mix up each group because of non-sequential events. Those souls in the 5th seal received glorified bodies (white robes). You have to end an event before another one can start. The 6th seal includes those alive in Christ, who also, do receive their white robes as glorified bodies, because you have to use Paul's rapture to complete the action. Two scriptures interpreted as one event. In fact Paul tells both the Thessalonians and the Corinthians it will happen. 3 separate scriptures pointing to the same event.
Those souls in Revelation 20 are only those who have their heads chopped off, because they refused to wear the mark 666. They did not go up in the rapture. They were not a part of the wheat and tares harvest of the time of the Trumpets. They were not part of the wedding of the Second Coming of Christ. They may not exist at all if they all had a chance by someone telling them right now this very moment how they can be saved. Instead they only have a 50/50 chance to follow Satan or get their head chopped off. That is why they were martyrs. Yes there are martyrs in every generation from the OT judges, till those refusing 666. However, this last group are only there, because Satan himself ordered their heads chopped off.
The prayers of those in Christ should be of repentance and turning away from sin and the cares of this world to prevent Satan from ever getting 3.5 years to begin with. Satan is already at work deceiving everyone. God is waiting to see if the church will do it's job first. If the church fails, then Satan gets 3.5 years of terror to prove he is a failure and a deadbeat.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So in short, when John says he saw the souls of those under the altar, he actually saw nothing of the sort, only an image representing something not real?
'And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar
the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
How long, O Lord, holy and true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood
on them that dwell on the earth?'
(Rev 6:9-10)
Hello @marks,
With respect, I said what I meant in reply #113 & #116, that John saw in a vision, those persons who had been slain, 'for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held'. He heard their cry in verse 10:- 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?' These were dead persons personified, the Overcomers of the tribulation. Who are to wait until all who, like them would die as they did, then they would all receive their just reward as described later in Revelation 20:-
'And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.'
(Rev 20:4-5)
Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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