Death penalty.

[Cristo Rei]

If I may, the murderer is under the Law of the OT, the saint is not. The murderer must pay to the uttermost farthing.

Our justice system is too corrupt

 

[CadyandZoe]

Just reading this thread and its just so sad to see so many Christians supporting murder...

Most of you guys are simply unaware of the corruption within the justice system or the costs involved to be represented in court... All of which lead to the wrong decision time and time again

Supporting homicide is not very Christ like. It shows a deep lack empathy which is missing in todays world... Its sad...

Is capital punishment wrong for its own sake or is it wrong when it is abused?

 

[Grailhunter]

How righteous are we if we kill a man who has killed a man...
We are no different then... We are both murderers...
Both think they had a just reason to take a humans life but only God should have that authority...
Mans corrupt justice systems are inadequate to make such decisions

I understand the concept and I am little rough. Executions are not murder and killing an intruder in your home is not murder and defending your country is not murder.....The simple definition of murder...unjustified killing.

 

[Truther]

Our justice system is too corrupt

Not here in California. Our Democratic governor stayed all executions. There are people there that have killed as many as 25 people on death row skating. A lot of victims are hurting. The night stalker and the meth head serial killer of Linden etc are enjoying their stay in San Quentin, thanks to our liberal governor.

 

[LouisWilliams]

Your talking about Indonesia, they last thing they want is more Christians.

Similar stories here in the US, as we have the death penalty in some states. People will change and still be executed in the long period of time waiting for execution. A decade or so wait on death row should be enough to make someone contemplate their own death and repent if they will do so. Impending death is powerful motivation to seek God. It is also just that the victim's survivors should be avenged. We can use christian morals to condemn vengeance, but it is not right for us to make the decision to deny proportionate justice for everyone else.

But arguments fall flat on an economic standpoint alone. It is actually cheaper to imprison someone for life than to execute them in the US.

Despite my reasons I would still prefer there be no death penalty.

"In an interview with Christian Today last year during a visit to the UK to celebrate the YMCA's 175th anniversary, Claiborne said Christians should embrace a consistent life ethic in which they "stand for life from womb to tomb".

"We like to say that we are pro life, but we have defined that so narrowly in terms of abortion that in the US you can say you are pro life and yet be pro death penalty, pro guns, pro military, anti environment; pretty much pro death on every other issue," he said."
Death penalty undermines Jesus' redemptive work on the cross - Shane Claiborne

I agree to a certain extent...but I also feel that different societies and cultures are at different stages of maturity and development, some countries do objectively have far more crime and violence than others, for example, or more drug trade, for example, which I think is a serious crime, spiritually. I do think that those who trade in illegal substances, who make massive profit off of them while harming others, should be treated quite harshly. Others, China, of course, legalize abortion and the death penalty -- but they are actually quite culturally conservative in many other ways also. Most Chinese people (and Asians in general, both their societies and governments, with some exceptions) seem to widely despise drugs.

Reading all the news in even America today alone - that is very depressing sometimes, I can't believe in 2021, we still have so much violence and crime in this country, with so much murder and assault and mass shootings everywhere. Should we not have matured past that, to a far greater degree than we have thus far? We are not in a state of balance from within - and America is such a large, populous, deeply divided, and complicated country, FAR more so than Australia or some small nation in Europe, that there are no easy or straightforward solutions to many of our current social problems.

Edit: I have not voted -- because I am not sure which is the ideal view in general. I do acknowledge that most of the Western world, including nearly all of Europe, has abolished the death penalty though.

I think this quote is meaningful in this regard, perhaps:

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Romans 12:19)

 

[CadyandZoe]

"In an interview with Christian Today last year during a visit to the UK to celebrate the YMCA's 175th anniversary, Claiborne said Christians should embrace a consistent life ethic in which they "stand for life from womb to tomb".

"We like to say that we are pro life, but we have defined that so narrowly in terms of abortion that in the US you can say you are pro life and yet be pro death penalty, pro guns, pro military, anti environment; pretty much pro death on every other issue," he said."
Death penalty undermines Jesus' redemptive work on the cross - Shane Claiborne

I agree to a certain extent...but I also feel that different societies and cultures are at different stages of maturity and development, some countries do objectively have far more crime and violence than others, for example, or more drug trade, for example, which I think is a serious crime, spiritually. I do think that those who trade in illegal substances, who make massive profit off of them while harming others, should be treated quite harshly. Others, China, of course, legalize abortion and the death penalty -- but they are actually quite culturally conservative in many other ways also. Most Chinese people (and Asians in general, both their societies and governments, with some exceptions) seem to widely despise drugs.

Reading all the news in even America today alone - that is very depressing sometimes, I can't believe in 2021, we still have so much violence and crime in this country, with so much murder and assault and mass shootings everywhere. Should we not have matured past that, to a far greater degree than we have thus far? We are not in a state of balance from within - and America is such a large, populous, deeply divided, and complicated country, FAR more so than Australia or some small nation in Europe, that there are no easy or straightforward solutions to many of our current social problems.

I think this quote is meaningful in this regard, perhaps:

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Romans 12:19)

I don't agree with Shane Claiborne who seems to have never learned the distinction between vengeance and justice. Recall the situation prior to Noah's flood. During that age, men were taking vengeance on each other, even killing a boy over a minor issue. Genesis 4:23-24. After the flood God institutes the concept of capital punishment, declaring to Noah,

Genesis 9:5-6
Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man’s brother I will require the life of man. Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

Perhaps Mr. Claiborne doesn't understand that in a world of sinners, the alternative to capital punishment isn't an idyllic world of non-violence. The alternative is a return to the days of Noah, a time when nothing but vengeance existed.

 

[Truther]

"In an interview with Christian Today last year during a visit to the UK to celebrate the YMCA's 175th anniversary, Claiborne said Christians should embrace a consistent life ethic in which they "stand for life from womb to tomb".

"We like to say that we are pro life, but we have defined that so narrowly in terms of abortion that in the US you can say you are pro life and yet be pro death penalty, pro guns, pro military, anti environment; pretty much pro death on every other issue," he said."
Death penalty undermines Jesus' redemptive work on the cross - Shane Claiborne

I agree to a certain extent...but I also feel that different societies and cultures are at different stages of maturity and development, some countries do objectively have far more crime and violence than others, for example, or more drug trade, for example, which I think is a serious crime, spiritually. I do think that those who trade in illegal substances, who make massive profit off of them while harming others, should be treated quite harshly. Others, China, of course, legalize abortion and the death penalty -- but they are actually quite culturally conservative in many other ways also. Most Chinese people (and Asians in general, both their societies and governments, with some exceptions) seem to widely despise drugs.

Reading all the news in even America today alone - that is very depressing sometimes, I can't believe in 2021, we still have so much violence and crime in this country, with so much murder and assault and mass shootings everywhere. Should we not have matured past that, to a far greater degree than we have thus far? We are not in a state of balance from within - and America is such a large, populous, deeply divided, and complicated country, FAR more so than Australia or some small nation in Europe, that there are no easy or straightforward solutions to many of our current social problems.

I think this quote is meaningful in this regard, perhaps:

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Romans 12:19)

Sinners don't mature out of sinning.

 

[JohnPaul]

AND here's a Youtube video which you must sign into your Google Account to view, where apparently FOUR Cops arrested a suspected of Forgery Attempt who was placed in handcuffs. An officer then placed is knee on the neck of the suspect (George Floyd) for some eight minutes preventing his ability to breathe. And of course he subsequently died "a short time later":

Police Murder Handcuffed Prisoner
10,577 views in one day
•May 26, 2020

And also:

George Floyd Died After Police Knelt on His Neck During Arrest
227,368 views in one day
•May 26, 2020

... And ...

4 police officers fired after death of unarmed black man
32,161 views in one day
•May 26, 2020​

So when you read Rev. 20, please expect these types of occurrences:

Rev. 20:4 ... Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.​

... and "beheaded" is synonymous with "murdered". -- Welcome to the ever increasing Police State where you and your family are disposable!
Bobby Jo

You really believe that? George Floyd had Fentanyl and meth in his system the cop didn't kill him the drugs in his system did, The police office followed protocol, now Flyd is a national hero. He was a known criminal and now he's a national hero.

Yes I believe in the Death penalty and support it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

"...those who indulge the corrupt desires of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and self-willed...
These men are like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be captured and destroyed." 2 Peter 2:10-12​

When men become dangerous, irrational and beyond reasoning, and are out of control they need to be put to death, just as we do to wild beasts that roam the earth and have become a threat to the freedom and safety of humans.

 

[amadeus]

Sinners don't mature out of sinning.

Amen!

 

[amadeus]

You really believe that? George Floyd had Fentanyl and meth in his system the cop didn't kill him the drugs in his system did, The police office followed protocol, now Flyd is a national hero. He was a known criminal and now he's a national hero.

Yes I believe in the Death penalty and support it.

How many mistakes are we allowed to make?

 

[JohnPaul]

How many mistakes are we allowed to make?

Mistakes? Killing someone cold blooded multiple times is a mistake?
Thow shall not commit murder is what it says in the Bible, they twist and say thow shall not kill which is a big difference, killing someone in self defense over premeditated murder is a big difference.

People like to change words from murder to kill, so when your killing someone on Death Penalty who murdered someone it’s different than accidental death or death in self defense.

 

[amadeus]

How many mistakes are we allowed to make?

Mistakes? Killing someone cold blooded multiple times is a mistake?
Thow shall not commit murder is what it says in the Bible, they twist and say thow shall not kill which is a big difference, killing someone in self defense over premeditated murder is a big difference.

People like to change words from murder to kill, so when your killing someone on Death Penalty who murdered someone it’s different than accidental death or death in self defense.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I am not general opposed to the death penalty. Rather I am opposed to the possibility of putting to to death an innocent man or of imposing a penalty than that warranted by the crime.

If the severity of the crime is sufficient and the guilt of the accused is definite I would be for it. I carefully distrust our court system, its judges and juries.

When God is the judge, there is no doubt. When man is the judge however...?

Consider the legal stoning to death of Naboth at the instigation of Jezebel in II Kings 21. Naboth wanting to keep his land in accord with the law of God through Moses. In accord with the law of God through Moses he stoned to death because two witnesses lied about him. The man was innocent of the charge made against him. The man still died!

Are there no liars among us today?

 

[JohnPaul]

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I am not general opposed to the death penalty. Rather I am opposed to the possibility of putting to to death an innocent man or of imposing a penalty than that warranted by the crime.

If the severity of the crime is sufficient and the guilt of the accused is definite I would be for it. I carefully distrust our court system, its judges and juries.

When God is the judge, there is no doubt. When man is the judge however...?

Consider the legal stoning to death of Naboth at the instigation of Jezebel in II Kings 21. Naboth wanting to keep his land in accord with the law of God through Moses. In accord with the law of God through Moses he stoned to death because two witnesses lied about him. The man was innocent of the charge made against him. The man still died!

Are there no liars among us today?

I understand what you’re saying Amadeus, I’m sorry if I took your words out of context, of course if they put someone to death it would have to be beyond a shadow of a doubt, we wouldn’t want an innocent person killed God forbid.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

How many mistakes are we allowed to make?

As many as it takes to demonstrate that a person is beyond reform. God has established the office of Judge to determine that.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If the severity of the crime is sufficient and the guilt of the accused is definite I would be for it.

For me it's more than that. The person has to demonstrate that they are not sorry for what they did and show no inclination toward repentance. This is the mindset of the psychopath. They have no capacity to care about other people. They should be put to death for the safety and benefit of society.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I carefully distrust our court system, its judges and juries.

I do too. But it's incumbent on society itself to make sure only honorable and upright men are placed in positions of judging. Usually, the government goes as the people go. A society that hates righteousness will hate righteous men and not have them in places of authority. They will want people like themselves to be over them. That's why America is where it's at today.

 

[amadeus]

For me it's more than that. The person has to demonstrate that they are not sorry for what they did and show no inclination toward repentance. This is the mindset of the psychopath. They have no capacity to care about other people. They should be put to death for the safety and benefit of society.

While I understand your point in and for our society but... how far gone is a person?

Consider the man with a legion within... but Jesus sent them into the swine herd.

Knowing the power and mercy of God, I am glad it is not me standing in judgement of people in today's courtrooms.

When I was a moderator on forums like this one I hated to ban a person although sometimes it was necessary. Probably I am too soft hearted. I quit the moderating job because the rules too often conflicted with my convictions. I wanted to slap an offender lightly on the wrist when the rules demanded a harsher penalty.

 

[Ezra]

here in California

your state gov has done lost its mind

 

[Ezra]

i support the death penalty %199 they live on death row over 20 years .longer than the victim got