Death penalty.

[Truth7t7]

That my friend is why i wont ever sit on a jury . That and this as well .
The second they make me put my hand on a bible and swear an oath , I AM GONNA SAY , NOPE , JESUS said to swear not
not by heaven , not by earth , not by any other oath . SO , i suspect highly i will fast be rejected as a juror .

I was jury foreman in a simple case of eviction of an elderly man about 75 years old, he had lived in the property for about 25 years

He had never missed rent, no destruction or abuse of others or the property

The prosecution built their case around he smoked cigarettes, and like to play poker in card clubs, neither being a condition in the rental agreement

I stated as a jury foreman that the prosecution has no case to evict him, and I convinced 2 others as 9 jurors evicted him as he sat crying after the verdict

After the verdict the lawyer for the elderly man was in the elevator with myself and about 7 other jurors, as he explained that a catholic group had taken over the complex, with the manager of the units being a catholic leader of the group, and was trying to rid the elderly man to make way for another catholic member, this was restricted evidence that was withheld from the jury (Corrupt)

How many jurors would have decided in the elderly man's favor given the info above?

It was at this point I haven't partaken in the corrupt system since, and don't think this dosent take place in many other cases including the death penalty

 

[amigo de christo]

I was jury foreman in a simple case of eviction of an elderly man about 75 years old, he had lived in the property for about 25 years

He had never missed rent, no destruction or abuse of others or the property

The prosecution built their case around he smoked cigarettes, and like to play poker in card clubs, neither being a condition in the rental agreement

I stated as a jury foreman that the prosecution has no case to evict him, and I convinced 2 others as 9 jurors evicted him as he sat crying after the verdict

After the verdict the lawyer for the elderly man was in the elevator with myself and about 7 other jurors, as he explained that a catholic group had taken over the complex, with the manager of the units being a catholic leader of the group, and was trying to rid the elderly man to make way for another catholic member, this was restricted evidence that was withheld from the jury (Corrupt)

It was at this point I haven't partaken in the corrupt system since

Exactly my friend . This system is CORRUPT . Let us have NO PART IN IT .

 

[amigo de christo]

I was jury foreman in a simple case of eviction of an elderly man about 75 years old, he had lived in the property for about 25 years

He had never missed rent, no destruction or abuse of others or the property

The prosecution built their case around he smoked cigarettes, and like to play poker in card clubs, neither being a condition in the rental agreement

I stated as a jury foreman that the prosecution has no case to evict him, and I convinced 2 others as 9 jurors evicted him as he sat crying after the verdict

After the verdict the lawyer for the elderly man was in the elevator with myself and about 7 other jurors, as he explained that a catholic group had taken over the complex, with the manager of the units being a catholic leader of the group, and was trying to rid the elderly man to make way for another catholic member, this was restricted evidence that was withheld from the jury (Corrupt)

How many jurors would have decided in the elderly man's favor given the info above?

It was at this point I haven't partaken in the corrupt system since, and don't think this dosent take place in many other cases including the death penalty

Let the church simply judge our own matters . Let no man take another to court before the ungodly .
And let us not partake in such a wicked system .

 

[amadeus]

Exactly my friend . This system is CORRUPT . Let us have NO PART IN IT .

Even so! Men will misuse the law to stifle justice... to get their own way.

We should remember what Jezebel did to Naboth [I Kings chapter 21]. Naboth was innocent of the crime with which he was charged, but using the letter of the law which God gave to Moses, Jezebel brought false witnesses against him and he was "legally" convicted and stoned to death. It was legal, but Naboth was dead!

 

[kcnalp]

I think you need to read your old testament! He had faithful Jews killing other Jews for crimes!

I've read it many times. OT NEVER overrules NT! Are you Christian? Stick with the NT!

Jesus never in the NT forbade the death penalty!

You're using that for an excuse to murder innocent people?

and sorry but government- no matter how wicked is simply a tool in god's hand.

Of course! WICKED people punishing WICKED people and executing Christians.

Romans 13
King James Version

13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Paul said that evil rome was a minister of God and that if a believer did evil, they should fear! I understand you rfeelings, I had them also for a long time. but the bible teaches different.

So you will murder Christians for Uncle Sam?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Amen!
Jesus showed her mercy! Fortunately for all of us God has a whole lot of that. Probably all of us need to have more of it:

"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy" Matt 5:7

And we must remember Jesus did not act as a government but as a personal Messiah to an individual. In this thread teh issue is did God give government a death penalty to enact.

We know He gave Noah who is the father of all humanity through Shem Ham and Japheth the command that if a man takes a mas life ( aka 1st degree murder) then man must take that persons life. This was command to all peoples who came from Noah!

Israel had a death penalty. All other civilizations have or had a death penalty.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I've read it many times. OT NEVER overrules NT! Are you Christian? Stick with the NT!

Well god is the same yesterday, today and forever. so if He commanded Noah and all civilizations come from Noah to take the life of one who takes a mans life (1st degree murder) you need to show where in teh NT that law was revoked by God to all nations!

Remember we are not talking individuals vs. individuals, but we are talking about governments! It has nothing to do with salvation, it has nothing to do with teh faith of an individual, it has nothing to do with sending one to hell.

It has to do with one committing a crime worthy of death as the Apostle Paul wrote!

Also: in the NT
Romans 13
King James Version

13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Why do governments bear swords? to roast wieners and marshmallows over a campfire? Not to kill someone! God did not inspire Paul to condemn the death penalty, but says that governments do not bear the sword in vain and they are GODS MINISTERS!

You're using that for an excuse to murder innocent people?

Now you are throwing a mans mistake in the mix. God will deal if a government intentionally executes an innocent person! but show How Romans 13 has been negated.

Yes I am a Christian. Been one for 47 years and read theNT over 200 times now! I also know any command God gave NOahas a general command still applies today. YOu know like eatring anything we wish, animals fearinf man, and man taking the life of a man who murdered someone. these were before Israel and the Mosaic Law to Israel!

Once again you are not arguiing biblical tenets but personal emotions and throwing indivdual instances of mercy to try to defend your feeling that God is against the death penalty. this is not sound Christian thinking.

So you will murder Christians for Uncle Sam?

Well as I am not in a position to hand down the death penalty for one convicted of a capital crime your accusation is foolish.

 

[Truth7t7]

Let the church simply judge our own matters . Let no man take another to court before the ungodly .
And let us not partake in such a wicked system .

I cant disagree, how many wealthy millionaires are on death row?

Well god is the same yesterday, today and forever. so if He commanded Noah and all civilizations come from Noah to take the life of one who takes a mans life (1st degree murder) you need to show where in teh NT that law was revoked by God to all nations!

Remember we are not talking individuals vs. individuals, but we are talking about governments! It has nothing to do with salvation, it has nothing to do with teh faith of an individual, it has nothing to do with sending one to hell.

It has to do with one committing a crime worthy of death as the Apostle Paul wrote!

Also: in the NT
Romans 13
King James Version

13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Why do governments bear swords? to roast wieners and marshmallows over a campfire? Not to kill someone! God did not inspire Paul to condemn the death penalty, but says that governments do not bear the sword in vain and they are GODS MINISTERS!



Now you are throwing a mans mistake in the mix. God will deal if a government intentionally executes an innocent person! but show How Romans 13 has been negated.

Yes I am a Christian. Been one for 47 years and read theNT over 200 times now! I also know any command God gave NOahas a general command still applies today. YOu know like eatring anything we wish, animals fearinf man, and man taking the life of a man who murdered someone. these were before Israel and the Mosaic Law to Israel!

Once again you are not arguiing biblical tenets but personal emotions and throwing indivdual instances of mercy to try to defend your feeling that God is against the death penalty. this is not sound Christian thinking.



Well as I am not in a position to hand down the death penalty for one convicted of a capital crime your accusation is foolish.

"Your claim is error as seen below"

The woman at the well was guilty of death by stoning, and it could be understood that the accusing scribes and pharisees were also, that written on the ground by Jesus Christ would be compelling evidence of their crimes

Jesus Christ below abolished the death penalty, with the words

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

John 8:3-11KJV
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 

[kcnalp]

Well as I am not in a position to hand down the death penalty for one convicted of a capital crime your accusation is foolish.

And still you promote killing innocent people, Christians and sending people to Hell by WICKED governments!

 

[amadeus]

And we must remember Jesus did not act as a government but as a personal Messiah to an individual. In this thread teh issue is did God give government a death penalty to enact.

Yes, but what has God given to all men? The authority to choose God's and His Way... or not! That men in their government have been given the authority does not mean it should be misused. In the case of Naboth it was misused and likely in various cases today in the courtrooms of men it has been misused.

When a person is really worthy of death in accord with both God's law and man's law, I would be for death.

However, when I do not know that the person is worthy of death then as a judge or as a juror which way should I go? As had been stated in the legal proceedings of men added to doubts as the guilt of a person is the corruption of men who have the power but have little or no interest in true justice.

So then while I am certainly not against the death penalty when it really is appropriate, when is that?

We know He gave Noah who is the father of all humanity through Shem Ham and Japheth the command that if a man takes a mas life ( aka 1st degree murder) then man must take that persons life. This was command to all peoples who came from Noah!

Israel had a death penalty. All other civilizations have or had a death penalty.

If I could trust men to never sentence a man to death when there really was no reasonable doubt as to his guilt and that the nature of the crime warranted that punishment I would favor it as God has favored it or even commanded it.

 

[amadeus]

And still you promote killing innocent people, Christians and sending people to Hell by WICKED governments!

Who is innocent? Some certainly have been forgiven by God and some by men, but does that make them innocent of the crimes which they have committed against God and men?

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Rom 3:23

 

[kcnalp]

Who is innocent? Some certainly have been forgiven by God and some by men, but does that make them innocent of the crimes which they have committed against God and men?

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Rom 3:23

How do you know they are not innocent? You don't! US court systems are almost totally corrupt! If you support killing people you will kill some innocents! You will also take away someone's opportunities for salvation. If someone truly repents before he is executed you are killing a Christian. Do you really want any of that on your hands on Judgment Day? Let the LYING lawyers, judges an prosecutors do their own dirty work. Let them do the murdering.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"Your claim is error as seen below"

The woman at the well was guilty of death by stoning, and it could be understood that the accusing scribes and pharisees were also, that written on the ground by Jesus Christ would be compelling evidence of their crimes

Jesus Christ below abolished the death penalty, with the words

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

John 8:3-11KJV
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Now lay out your reasoning, preferably from Scripture, How forgiving a woman caught in adultery's and worthy of the death penalty under the rule of law for the jews is an abolishing of the death penalty for all nations for murder or other capitol crimes. Show how forgiving a woman of her sin, translates into people not paying the penalty for their crime.

I clearly see jesus forgivng her of her sin, but I also see jesus saying that one who is without sin should cast the first stone.

does that also mean if a governor decides to pardon one on death row, all should be pardoned?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And still you promote killing innocent people, Christians and sending people to Hell by WICKED governments!

You are lying about me again ! Show me one response of mine where I promote killing innocent people or sending anyone to hell. This is a lame defense of your because you know th ebible called for man killing man if that person killed one and God called government His instrument and that they carry the sword not in vain.

Stop lying about my words.

No human government has the power to send anyone to hell. Are you ar newly saved person withour biblical experience yet? This is new born christian tantrums you are throwing here.

But if a Christian murders someone in the first degree- and the nation has a death penalty for murder, I would not protest that Christian being put to death by the government. YOur rant of ki8lling innocent people is just a childish smokescreen.

Remember or if you haven't learned this yet- people go to the lake of fire because they reject Jesus, not because a wicked government enacts the death penalty for their crimes that deserve death.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, but what has God given to all men? The authority to choose God's and His Way... or not! That men in their government have been given the authority does not mean it should be misused. In the case of Naboth it was misused and likely in various cases today in the courtrooms of men it has been misused.

Well that is a different issue for a different thread. We are talking about the death penalty in general and not about use, misuse, abuse or any other thing done by mortal fallible men. all of us know that juries can be bought, can be prejudiced or biased etc.etc.etc.etc. And we also all know that in war many civilians are killed. I do not call them innocents, because before God all are guilty. But in the war, non-combatants are considered innocents. Aall these issues can and do color a verdict, but that is the verdict and not the veracity of the death penalty.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

How do you know they are not innocent? You don't! US court systems are almost totally corrupt! If you support killing people you will kill some innocents!

All court systems are corrupt because humans sit there! And they would be just as corrupt if you or I sat there as well. all humans are fallible, sinners and mortal. But that did not stop God from issuing the order to take a persons life if they took a life to NoAH NOR TO OBEY GOVERNMENTS (HE DID NOT SAY YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO OBEY CORRUPT GOVERNMENTS),.

If yo are so worried about people killing innocents then you should od the following:

Get rid of cell phones, thousands every year die from getting hit by a driver on a phone or run over because they were not paying attention.

Get rid of all alcohol, 40,000+ people did iin car crashes every year from drunk drivers.

Get rid of cars. Lots of innocents die from cars.

where are you going to draw the line on what you allow and disallow because innocents are killed in an activity?

Do you think America should not have gone off to war in WW 2? Aftger all many innocents were killed? Should we have just let Japan and Germany eventually invade our land and let them take over?

 

[amadeus]

How do you know they are not innocent? You don't! US court systems are almost totally corrupt! If you support killing people you will kill some innocents! You will also take away someone's opportunities for salvation. If someone truly repents before he is executed you are killing a Christian. Do you really want any of that on your hands on Judgment Day? Let the LYING lawyers, judges an prosecutors do their own dirty work. Let them do the murdering.

You should read more carefully.

 

[amadeus]

Well that is a different issue for a different thread. We are talking about the death penalty in general and not about use, misuse, abuse or any other thing done by mortal fallible men. all of us know that juries can be bought, can be prejudiced or biased etc.etc.etc.etc. And we also all know that in war many civilians are killed. I do not call them innocents, because before God all are guilty. But in the war, non-combatants are considered innocents. Aall these issues can and do color a verdict, but that is the verdict and not the veracity of the death penalty.

The only black and white answer is God's. When He shares it with us then it should be ours. When He does not, proceed with caution indeed... or perhaps back away. Not being a judge of men nor a member of a jury, I really am able in most cases to do that.

"And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?" Luke 12:14

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The only black and white answer is God's. When He shares it with us then it should be ours. When He does not, proceed with caution indeed... or perhaps back away. Not being a judge of men nor a member of a jury, I really am able in most cases to do that.

"And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?" Luke 12:14

True but Scripture does give mandates for governments enacting a death penalty. I have been a jurist several times. I listento the facts of the case and the attorneys and make my best decision with prayer and the facts at hand. That is all we can do an d trust God.

 

[amadeus]

True but Scripture does give mandates for governments enacting a death penalty. I have been a jurist several times. I listento the facts of the case and the attorneys and make my best decision with prayer and the facts at hand. That is all we can do an d trust God.

I do not disagree. I made lots of decisions on my secular job over years which were legally binding on people... but never as to whether a person should live or die in the flesh. I would not want the responsibility for such a decision. Neither would I want to tempt God.

"...not as I will, but as thou wilt"