DECONSTRUCTION - How far is too far?

[Jay Ross]

Melbourne

Yep, that may explain a lot. The old pennies, shillings and pound joke back in my childhood was that the paid-up capital of the state of Victoria was "free and free," which was a corruption of three shillings and threepence. In other words, Victoria and the words of wisdom emulating from that state was not worth the claimed value they put on themselves.

Not much has changed since my childhood.

 

[face2face]

The next part of her journey focuses on her personal life and how it was at odds with her perceived faith in God. I believe there is a major difference between "coming out of a system" vs. "discovering the building blocks of faith". Did Sara have a true foundation to begin with? I would say no, which is why it eroded from under her. Personally, I would argue she is still yet to discover the true Gospel, though I'm keenly aware all denominations have this deconstruction going on in them, so we are really talking about principles, not truth. Also, what faith she had (from a child), was untested, to mean it had not been tried to see if it is in fact genuine.

so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:7

Nicodemus came to Jesus under the shroud of darkness to inquire of the light and eventually he came out of that dark system completely to serve that light (and no doubt was tested by fire!). Unknowingly, Sara appears to have done the same. Catholicism is Judaism with a cross! I've met many a convicted Catholic though not one can support their teachings with the Bible in hand, and while convicted, their faith is fully built on the teachings of men (catechisms) . I've studied Catholicism for over 30 years and I am yet to find one doctrine of truth in her. She has made the nations drunk on her wine (doctrine) and she has many daughters with like teachings! When the Lord returns, many like Sara will need to make a decision, serve a man made religious system, or side with the Lord Jesus Christ and his Saints.

F2F

 

[face2face]

What do you make of this?

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

What do you make of it?

 

[St. SteVen]

What do you make of it?

You wrote:
face2face said:
The Bible is extremely clear on the state of the dead - dead is dead!

This says:
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive. (Luke 20:39)

 

[amigo de christo]

Deconstruction cometh to steal to kill and to destroy . BUT IN THE BIBLE CONTAINS THE WORDS OF TRUTH
which if a man do beleive in that JESUS HE will indeed have eternal life .
But if a man believeth in Deconstruction He will follow at most another jesus . I got real bad news , that one cannot save .
GET DUG IN THE BIBLE , learn and grow by the grace of GOD through Faith in CHRIST JESUS .
Cause i remind us all , i warn us all , we got a lot of decievers out there who love a lie .

 

[face2face]

You wrote:
face2face said:
The Bible is extremely clear on the state of the dead - dead is dead!

This says:
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive. (Luke 20:39)

Context is again (sigh) key to unlocking this passage. (red text emphasizes the Master's context as the basis of his teaching - I hope you can follow!)

In Luke 20:37

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’

So Jesus here is proving the power of the Resurrection (red text is Jesus' focus! and not that Abraham is "ever-living!" No such thing as an immortal soul! If you read Hebrews 11:39-40 you will see all the faithful are still dead, having not received the promises.

In Luke 20:38

He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” (note: ah right ! even though they are dead, in God's mind His Chosen are alive!)

I'm sure by now you are starting to feel a little embarrassed that you didn't read carefully the Lords teaching!

Verse 38 is a real stumbling block for you St. because Jesus is saying though Moses and Abraham are dead “For all live unto him”

Its Rom 4:17 isn't it?

As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead AND calls into being things that were not.

So what is Jesus actually teaching here St.? (did you catch it I wonder?)

God ‘surnames’ himself “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” Heb 11:16 (why would He do that if Abraham was to remain in the grave?)
Abraham “…the father of us all” Rom 4:16
Isaac his “…only begotten son” Heb 11:17
Jabob “A multitude(assembly/body of Christ)” see Gen 28:3

Summary for St. SteVen:

If you had read verse 37 maybe you wouldn't have posted this passage!
Anyways, the context is Moses at the Burning Bush and the name of God revealed there. If you read carefully the Lords words you would see he is teaching them about the ressurection!

The name given “He who will be” in Exod 3:14. Jesus was saying to them your ultimate preservation (raised from the dead) is not by descent! but by relationship to Yahweh!

You need understanding St. SteVen, and when you lack it, you try to prove things from the Word of God, which are just not there, AND you miss the beautiful lessons the Master is carefully crafted.

Maybe you could respond to God in a similar manner as they after hearing truth?

Luke 20:39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!” 40 And no one dared to ask him any more questions.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@St. SteVen the question for you is will you equate the living God to the dead?!

If you can't, you have missed the Masters teaching!

His hearers got this one loud and clear!

Do you know whats really impressive about the Lords teaching - Jesus could have quoted more categorical passages like:

They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them. Isa 26:14, 19

Your righteousness, God, reaches to the heavens, you who have done great things. Who is like you, God? Though you have made me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up. Psalm 71:19-21

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:2

But instead, he quotes from their basis! He gives them Moses and their fathers to prove to them they all are dead (asleep) awaiting the resurrection....and your lineage provides you nothing unless you are serving the One True God from the heart.

It was a nice Sunday School lesson he gave them!

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

You wrote:
face2face said:
The Bible is extremely clear on the state of the dead - dead is dead!

This says:
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive. (Luke 20:39)

If you don't mind me butting in I would like to say this, and I would beg your patience to hear me out....
In Adam all are dead but in Jesus all are alive....according to Paul.

Consider this explanation; it is in Adam all are dead...even while they are still walking around yet representatively (in Adam) all are dead not some of them but all. Conversely, in Jesus (the new human representative of God's choosing and doing without any input from man) all are alive even while they moulder in the grave.....not some but all.

Now the rub is this, just because all are in Jesus, not all want a part of being there. According to the scripture, most are on the broad road to destruction (the word is unambiguous) even while by God's kindness and choosing they are in Jesus (representatively). Yes, Jesus was raised for their justification but they don't want it and God will honour their choice (weeping) just as he honoured the choice of Judas to end his life. God didn't jump in and say 'hold on, you've made the wrong choice'. He allows peoples choice to become their reality. 'Splat' is not an option when one chooses to jump off the Empire State Building.

I think what will surprise us in the life hereafter, after Jesus returns, is how many who never heard of Salvation as we understand it will be in God's Kingdom. This is not something I/ we need to figure the details of, out.
If in my weakness and short sightedness I can feel compassion for people struggling to survive in the frozen wastes of the pole regions in past distant generations; people who never chose to be born in that geography or circumstances; if I/ we can feel compassion for a child born with foetal alcohol syndrome, something he /she has no control over, then surely my compassion does not outweigh God's.

In God's compassion, all humanity is in Jesus. Those who ultimately want out, will be and are only known to God and he will allow that out.

One might ask, 'why would anyone want out?'.....I don't know, it's a mystery which I don't think even God knows if I might be so bold as to say! One could also ask, why, after no doubt billions of years of joy in God's presence, should Lucifer, God's beloved Covering Cherub, turn against him and take a goodly portion of the angels with. Their choice? I think this is an unanswerable mystery also because if there was a justified reason, there would be a justified excuse.....and is there a justified excuse? I think not.

If the true character of God is revealed in Jesus choosing to let his killers murder him rather than retaliate in whatever way we are able and prone to imagine, then there is absolutely no excuse.

Thank you for being patient with my blurb.

 

[face2face]

In God's compassion, all humanity is in Jesus. Those who ultimately want out, will be and are only known to God and he will allow that out.

I liked a lot of what you wrote but plucked this out as being incorrect.

The Scripture makes it super clear how a person is constitutionally found to be in Jesus. It's not a matter of an opt out scenario but only an opt in.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation (Sin & Permanent Death) for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Only an enlightened mind can enter.

An analogy would be Noah building an Ark large enough for the entire populace only to find 8 lives remained.

Some of whom were disobedient in the days of Noah, while the long-suffering of God waited, while the ark was preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

The Long-suffering of God continues for a time.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

The Scripture makes it super clear how a person is constitutionally found to be in Jesus. It's not a matter of an opt out scenario but only an opt in.

If humanity/ a person is already in Jesus, (by Gods choosing) how can they opt in, they are already in, subsequently Good News. They can only opt out.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation (Sin & Permanent Death) for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Who are those in Christ Jesus? Is it not all (by God's choosing) ...The same all that are in Adam. We cannot opt out of being in Adam but we can opt out of being in Christ.

An analogy would be Noah building an Ark large enough for the entire populace only to find 8 lives remained.

Noah preached of the coming disaster for decades. A sanctuary (the boat) was being prepared which he invited people in to. That was the point of his preaching. The boat he built had more than enough room to house many more than eight people.....and if on the off chance it didn't he could have built a second boat. It was the people who opted out of the Salvation there for them.

Another factor re Salvation; 'names removed from the Lambs book of life'. They can only be removed if they are already in the book of life. We don't read of peoples names being put into the Book of Life, we only read of names being removed.
I suggest this is consistent with all in Jesus and that opting out is akin to names removed.....and they are removed because they don't want to be there, revealed by their choices and deliberately sustained behaviour.....like those described by Paul in Roman 1

 

[face2face]

If humanity/ a person is already in Jesus, (by Gods choosing) how can they opt in, they are already in, subsequently Good News. They can only opt out.

Opt in

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Humanity is not baptised into Christ!

Have you been fully immersed?

Who are those in Christ Jesus? Is it not all (by God's choosing) ...The same all that are in Adam. We cannot opt out of being in Adam but we can opt out of being in Christ.

Correct, you cannot opt out of being in Adam but opting into Christ is the sign of a good conscience one developed over time.

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Humanity is without Christ totally until such time as they develope a clear, or good conscience toward God.

Noah preached of the coming disaster for decades. A sanctuary (the boat) was being prepared which he invited people in to. That was the point of his preaching.

Same applies to Christ! Humanity is unsaved if they dont draw near to God with a good conscience.

The boat he built had more than enough room to house many more than eight people.....and if on the off chance it didn't he could have built a second boat. It was the people who opted out of the Salvation there for them.

You just proved my point! They didnt heed the warning and as such never entered the Ark (Christ)

Another factor re Salvation; 'names removed from the Lambs book of life'. They can only be removed if they are already in the book of life. We don't read of peoples names being put into the Book of Life, we only read of names being removed.

Wrong again.

Remember "good conscience!"

“Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. Mal 3:16

Those names are entered into those books (yes, plural!) Book of Life and the Book of the Lives.

I've studied this subject a lot over the years, so if you want to know more about these books, ask!

I’ve underlined the prerequisite of entering the books!

I suggest this is consistent with all in Jesus and that opting out is akin to names removed.....and they are removed because they don't want to be there, revealed by their choices and deliberately sustained behaviour.....like those described by Paul in Roman 1

Names removed are those who put their hand to the ploughshare and looked back and walked away. It's the Judas' of this world who opted into Christ only to have his name removed because of his own actions.


Do you know in all the time I've spoken to people in forums like this I have never come across this false teaching. Its a horrendous doctrine you hold!

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

Dude left his faith; but some of his content is interesting to see and listen to.

Thanks for posting that. He asks some valid questions.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You have a right to your opinion. I didn't agree with you.
How does your differing opinion suddenly put me in the wrong and you in the right?

Not sure how you can conclude false claims about those scriptures.
Did Jesus not tell us to love our enemies? Was this not shown to be godly behavior?
If loving our enemies is godly behavior, shouldn't we expect God to love his enemies?
Somehow that is unreasonable to you? Not sure where you are coming from.

If you read the Bible, you would know that God does love his enemies. But you seem unfamiliar with the Bible.

 

[St. SteVen]

It was a nice Sunday School lesson he gave them!

Would have been Sabbath school for them.

 

[face2face]

Would have been Sabbath school for them.

Dont forget the bring the principles back to the present ...also noted no acknowledgement of his lesson? Was it lost on you?

 

[face2face]

If you read the Bible, you would know that God does love his enemies. But you seem unfamiliar with the Bible.

It certainly appears to look that way, doesn’t it? Consistently misrepresenting the text without a single acknowledgment of what is true.
Appears not to have searched the Scriptures, rather applies preconceived ideas over and over. I guess I have the right to say this having now explained the meaning of approx. 7 passages and yet to see any understanding from him.

Is St. SteVen one of these?

"always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth?

I'm thankful God knows.

 

[St. SteVen]

If you don't mind me butting in I would like to say this, and I would beg your patience to hear me out....
In Adam all are dead but in Jesus all are alive....according to Paul.

Consider this explanation; it is in Adam all are dead...even while they are still walking around yet representatively (in Adam) all are dead not some of them but all. Conversely, in Jesus (the new human representative of God's choosing and doing without any input from man) all are alive even while they moulder in the grave.....not some but all.

Please feel free to butt in any time. You are always welcome, friend.

I read your post. Hope it helped to clarify something for you.
Where did it leave you, except with some unsolved mysteries?
Nothing wrong with that - I appreciate the honesty of "I don't know."

The question seemed to be about "dead and alive".
Here's my view. There are two kinds of life and two kinds of death.
1) Physical and spiritual life
2) Physical and spiritual death

 

[quietthinker]

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

This is the subjective response of those who have heard and believed the the unspeakable gift of being in.

Humanity is not baptised into Christ!

They haven't yet favourably responded. Maybe they haven't heard the Good News to motivate them to go through this symbolic action telling the world they are in Christ?

Have you been fully immersed?

swimming with the saints my dear, swimming!

Correct, you cannot opt out of being in Adam but opting into Christ is the sign of a good conscience one developed over time.

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Humanity is without Christ totally until such time as they develope a clear, or good conscience toward God.

Baptism is a response to God's initiative. Baptism does not initiate anything, it is purely a public declaration of identifying with Jesus, his death and resurrection. It is a witness to your choice to believe how God sees you in Jesus. Good News is not good advice, it is news.
Keeping the horse before the cart is how the cart moves forward. Baptism is a symbol declaring with not just your mouth but your whole reality that you believe God's unrelenting promise that he has (past tense....in Christ) saved you. By faith you/ I now live in hope (future) that when Jesus returns this mortal shall put on immortality and this corruptible, incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50-55

Subjectively Paul puts it like this; 'if you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and tell others about him with your mouth, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

There are two aspects to Salvation;
1. How God sees humanity in Jesus (redeemed)
2. How humanity sees their position or status ( either with hope - redeemed or without hope - lost)

1. Our/ your plight was taken on by Jesus before We/ you existed, before I/ you asked...all the seed if Adam included....he remedied that plight (in God's reality, before the creation of the World) In the reality which is visible to us, his death an resurrection. He did it for humanity, he didn't do it for himself (he represented all the children of Adam) He was raised to life and in him, so were we.

2. We hear this good news, what do we do with it? do we believe the status God has bestowed on us in Jesus or do we dismiss it? or do we think we have to do something before he will love and accept us?
For those who believe, they now have the assurance of hope. For those who do not believe they, by its very nature, have no hope.

Faith accesses subjectively what God has done for us in Jesus. Those who trust God's declaration manifested in Jesus can now know confidently that they are saved. It liberates them from guilt and slavery to sin.

'Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19

 

[St. SteVen]

Noah preached of the coming disaster for decades. A sanctuary (the boat) was being prepared which he invited people in to. That was the point of his preaching. The boat he built had more than enough room to house many more than eight people.....and if on the off chance it didn't he could have built a second boat. It was the people who opted out of the Salvation there for them.

Just had an interesting thought.
The garden (orchard) of Eden we are told was located at the Tigris and Euphrates. See Genesis 2:10-15.
The global flood of Noah happened in Genesis chapter six.

In Genesis 15:18 the Euphrates river is still there. After a global flood that destroyed everything. ???

The Tigris and Euphrates are still there. Since the creation of Eden and survived the global flood?

 

[St. SteVen]

Baptism is a response to God's initiative. Baptism does not initiate anything, it is purely a public declaration of identifying with Jesus, his death and resurrection.

Agree.
Baptism is a religious ceremony. A religious ceremony is an outward sign of an inward reality.