DECONSTRUCTION - How far is too far?

[quietthinker]

Just had an interesting thought.
The garden (orchard) of Eden we are told was located at the Tigris and Euphrates. See Genesis 2:10-15.
The global flood of Noah happened in Genesis chapter six.

In Genesis 15:18 the Euphrates river is still there. After a global flood that destroyed everything. ???

The Tigris and Euphrates are still there. Since the creation of Eden and survived the global flood?

View attachment 34803

After the flood that particular watercourse was given the name Euphrates but did it run the same course and was it the original it was named after?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Just had an interesting thought.
The garden (orchard) of Eden we are told was located at the Tigris and Euphrates. See Genesis 2:10-15.
The global flood of Noah happened in Genesis chapter six.

In Genesis 15:18 the Euphrates river is still there. After a global flood that destroyed everything. ???

The Tigris and Euphrates are still there. Since the creation of Eden and survived the global flood?

View attachment 34803

Yeah. So what?

 

[St. SteVen]

After the flood that particular watercourse was given the name Euphrates but did it run the same course and was it the original it was named after?

Hard to say. I think that area is considered to be the "cradle of civilization".

 

[quietthinker]

Do you know in all the time I've spoken to people in forums like this I have never come across this false teaching. Its a horrendous doctrine you hold!

My dear F2F.....If my presentation is unfamiliar to you as you say it is, why label it as 'false teaching'? you've hardly had time to consider it adequately.
Why not chew on its implications, ask questions, object if you must but present cogent reasons.....and stay on track.

The Good News might be better than you currently understand with a generosity that knows no bounds. Now that is truly breathtaking ....which in my estimation is God's style to the T

 

[face2face]

This is the subjective response of those who have heard and believed the the unspeakable gift of being in.

Scripture is subjective... but your words are authorative - OK!

They haven't yet favourably responded. Maybe they haven't heard the Good News to motivate them to go through this symbolic action telling the world they are in Christ?

....concluding they are without the eternal covenant and not within!

swimming with the saints my dear, swimming!

So making lite of Baptism, I see - interesting quiet..insightful and revealing... a little early to be showing your empty hand!

Baptism is a response to God's initiative. Baptism does not initiate anything, it is purely a public declaration of identifying with Jesus, his death and resurrection. It is a witness to your choice to believe how God sees you in Jesus. Good News is not good advice, it is news.

Close, but no cigar!

Did you notive you missed an important aspect of Baptism, in fact without it, Baptism is useless...only those who demonstrate it in their lives are in Christ - those without are without - always welcome, but none the less without.

“Baptism of repentance” & "the remission of sins" both which only apply to those who have a good conscience toward God and are in a convenant relationship with Him.

As you incorrectly put it, you cannot come to God if you believe everyone is already with Him.

Christ calls that being a theif and a robber!

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me

Said twice for emphasis.

Subjectively Paul puts it like this; 'if you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and tell others about him with your mouth, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Connects well with Romans 6 and the princples of Baptism...a whole chapter is given there on how one can enter the Lord Jesus Christ!

Confession - - > Baptism into his death and ressurection ---> a life lived in service to God and Christ - - > Salvation.

You are in the realm of those who are "in" Christ, who have entered into his sin covering name, however those without, are not saved, not yet!; they are yet to avail themselves of the blessings hidden in the Son. They are unenlightened to the place of salvation, until such time as someone shows them the meaning of his life.

“The person who does these things will live by them" those who dont, will not.

All people can be saved, that is true, but not all will enter the Son.

Many are called but few are chosen!

F2F

 

[face2face]

My dear F2F.....If my presentation is unfamiliar to you as you say it is, why label it as 'false teaching'? you've hardly had time to consider it adequately.
Why not chew on its implications, ask questions, object if you must but present cogent reasons.....and stay on track.

The Good News might be better than you currently understand with a generosity that knows no bounds. Now that is truly breathtaking ....which in my estimation is God's style to the T

Its no secret our interactions have proven many times that your teachings are false - St. SteVen has been shown many times as have you and each time your understanding moves further away from the inspired record.

Look at Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Talk to me about the covenant, which binds us to Him, and those who are without that covenant, what of them?

You say those without are already within the covenant, but you can see the issue which is glaringly obvious. If all people are within the covenant, how can they perish?

F2F

 

[face2face]

What of those who are outside the covenant relationship?

They have knowledge of the revealed divine law, but refuse to submit to it in baptism - Paul states this in Romans 2 verse 8

but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Also verses 2-3

They "perish" without investigation (i.e., "without law" - Gr. anomos) for they have openly repudiated the basis of God's goodness. It is important to note that those who "sin without law" will perish, whilst those who sin "in the law" are judged.

Why are they treated differently?

I'm interested to hear your answer....

 

[quietthinker]

Scripture is subjective... but your words are authorative - OK!


....concluding they are without the eternal covenant and not within!

So making light of Baptism, I see - interesting quiet..insightful and revealing... a little early to be showing your empty hand!

Close, but no cigar!

Did you notive you missed an important aspect of Baptism, in fact without it, Baptism is useless...only those who demonstrate it in their lives are in Christ - those without are without - always welcome, but none the less without.

“Baptism of repentance” & "the remission of sins" both which only apply to those who have a good conscience toward God and are in a convenant relationship with Him.

As you incorrectly put it, you cannot come to God if you believe everyone is already with Him.

Christ calls that being a theif and a robber!

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me

Said twice for emphasis.



Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Connects well with Romans 6 and the princples of Baptism...a whole chapter is given there on how one can enter the Lord Jesus Christ!

Confession - - > Baptism into his death and ressurection ---> a life lived in service to God and Christ - - > Salvation.

You are in the realm of those who are "in" Christ, who have entered into his sin covering name, however those without, are not saved, not yet!; they are yet to avail themselves of the blessings hidden in the Son. They are unenlightened to the place of salvation, until such time as someone shows them the meaning of his life.

“The person who does these things will live by them" those who dont, will not.

All people can be saved, that is true, but not all will enter the Son.

Many are called but few are chosen!

F2F

I perceive you prefer to major on mans response? What man must do? .....however 'pious' it might be. Am I discounting Mens/ Womens response? not at all

I understand the Gospel is about God's activity in Jesus for the benefit of all the seed of Adam. It is not about mans response per se.
My response, your response is a Johnny come lately phenomena. God's intention was in action(slain before the World was created) and as Paul says, revealed for us to see in our time (2000 yrs ago.)

How many are called? All. 2 Peter 3:9 'The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Who does the choosing? In the final analysis, men/ women do.

How many on the broad road? Lots. Why? because the Prince of this World has blinded them....with a blindness they love.
How many on the narrow road? Relatively few. Why? because they have responded positively to the wooing and drawing of the Spirit.

 

[quietthinker]

If all people are within the covenant, how can they perish?

Because they choose to. Judas become a type. He was included in the chosen but opted out.....resulting in his suicide.

 

[face2face]

I perceive you prefer to major on mans response? What man must do?

Well, to start with you can honour the Word of God and not misrepresent so carelessly.

.....however 'pious' it might be. Am I discounting Mens/ Womens response? not at all

I understand the Gospel is about God's activity in Jesus for the benefit of all the seed of Adam.

Correct - God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - He sets the terms of entry in His Son.

It is not about mans response per se.
My response, your response is a Johnny come lately phenomena. God's intention was in action(slain before the World was created) and as Paul says, revealed for us to see in our time (2000 yrs ago.)

Agree.

How many are called? All. 2 Peter 3:9 'The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Who does the choosing? In the final analysis, men/ women do.

All should come to repentance - the world is not in this state in Christ - that is erroneous teaching.

How many on the broad road? Lots. Why? because the Prince of this World has blinded them....with a blindness they love.

No, because there are those who draw near to God and those who remain in the flesh.

How many on the narrow road? Relatively few. Why? because they have responded positively to the wooing and drawing of the Spirit.

Agree.

But those without the covenant perish! No judgement; No second chances; No already saved! They perish, meaning they totally cease to exist in any shape or form.

 

[face2face]

Because they choose to. Judas become a type. He was included in the chosen but opted out.....resulting in his suicide.

Judas was welcomed into the fold but betrayed his Lord and suffered the consequences.

 

[quietthinker]

So making lite of Baptism, I see - interesting quiet..insightful and revealing... a little early to be showing your empty hand!

Making lite of it? not at all! Approaching it with a liberty and a freedom the Johnny tight shorts find threatening.

 

[face2face]

Because they choose to. Judas become a type. He was included in the chosen but opted out.....resulting in his suicide.

The answer Paul is driving at in Romans 2:10 is those who "sin without law" will perish, while those who sin "in the law" are judged. Why are they treated differently?

Because the former, having refused baptism perish without the need of an examination - their refusal to be baptised is sin enough. Their judgement is "the wages of sin is death"

F2F

Note: By the way Judas will be judged being "in the law", he is responsible and taking the easy way out will by no means acquit him of answering to his actions.

 

[face2face]

Making lite of it? not at all! Approaching it with a liberty and a freedom the Johnny tight shorts find threatening.

You finding your feet being held to the fire a little hot quiet? I can give you time to cool them off if you like!

 

[quietthinker]

Well, to start with you can honour the Word of God and not misrepresent so carelessly.


Correct - God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - He sets the terms of entry in His Son.


Agree.

All should come to repentance - the world is not in this state in Christ - that is erroneous teaching.


No, because there are those who draw near to God and those who remain in the flesh.

Agree.

But those without the covenant perish! No judgement; No second chances; No already saved! They perish, meaning they totally cease to exist in any shape or form.

I will say it again, perhaps plainer, The Gospel is about God's activity in Jesus. We are commissioned to share the Gospel.
The Gospel is not about a human response ie, believing, baptism, the Lord's supper, sabbath keeping etc

Sharing that which God has done in Jesus for humanity is accompanied by the Spirit drawing folk to the lover of their souls. If they are drawn to him, will they not believe? Believing is the natural response to being drawn.

Men/ Women will respond in either of two ways; there will allow the Sprit to draw them or they will resist it......and if they have a religious disposition they will insist on contributing in different ways depending on their religious bias.....either, baptism, sabbath keeping, having the right eschatological exposition, spending sufficient time in purgatory, believing in a God who tortures for eternity....the list goes on and on and on.

Do you have a list of must do's in order for God to be impressed?

 

[face2face]

@quietthinker

Paul continues to speak about those "within" Christ in Chapter 2:16

16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Notice the foundation upon which those in Christ are judged?

 

[quietthinker]

You finding your feet being held to the fire a little hot quiet? I can give you time to cool them off if you like!

my dear, how can I not read that as a projection?

 

[face2face]

I will say it again, perhaps plainer, The Gospel is about God's activity in Jesus. We are commissioned to share the Gospel.
The Gospel is not about a human response ie, believing.

So you believe belief is not required to either share or accept the Gospel? You need to read that sentence again!

Sharing that which God has done in Jesus for humanity is accompanied by the Spirit drawing folk to the lover of their souls. If they are drawn to him, will they not believe? Believing is the natural response to being drawn.

Now you contradict yourself?

Listen - believing in God is not a human response - faith belongs to God alone! and it requires faith to believe - you make no sense at all.

Men/ Women will respond in either of two ways; there will allow the Sprit to draw them or they will resist it......and if they have a religious disposition they will insist on contributing in different ways depending on their religious bias.....either, baptism, sabbath keeping, having the right eschatological exposition, spending sufficient time in purgatory, believing in a God who tortures for eternity....the list goes on and on and on.

Do you have a list of must do's in order for God to be impressed?

No.

The drawing of us including believing is all about Gods Word developing faith in the believer - its not a human response!

You need some sleep quiet and in your next response provide some Scripture - when you move away from it the sands move!

F2F

 

[face2face]

my dear, how can I not read that as a projection?

Take it however you want - you're the one telling stories! All I can do is share the Word of God and hope you will float down from those waterless clouds!

 

[quietthinker]

So you believe belief is not required to either share or accept the Gospel? You need to read that sentence again!

There's been an edit on that section....I've added to the list