Devil not immortal

[Purity]

The devil is not immortal.

Heb. 2:14 Forasmuch, then, as the children of God are partakers of flesh and blood, Jesus also himself took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.”

What is it in flesh and blood that had the power of subjecting the body to death?

The evil principle of corruption within man, termed by Paul “the law of sin in the members,” “the law of sin and death,” “sin in the flesh.” This then is “the devil, that had the power of death.”

The evil principle, which entered into man when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of evil, and which is inherent in all the descendants of Adam being proved to be the devil in the passage adduced, it follows that he is not immortal, unless it can be affirmed that evil, lust, sin, &c., are in themselves essentially incorruptible, and, therefore, indestructible and immortal, which would be the ne plus ultra of absurdity.

P.

 

[Madad21]

Yes you are right, there has been a day of judgment set aside for the devil, this is not lost in the Word.

“Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt.25:41 KJV).

But we can ask will someone including Satan suffer for all eternity?

The JW's who do not believe in an immortal soul say no, once you are destroyed you are wiped out for good, where as the Bible speaks of eternal punishment, a lake of fire to be exact.

So does this mean that a person including the devil can live forever in punishment?

​No, death is not life, at the moment the devil has life, however everlasting life as we are told is found in Christ, and in revelation 20:14 we read that death and hades (the holding pen of the dead) are also cast in to the lake which is referred to as the second death. Thats eternal destruction never to return.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 10:28 to fear the One who can destroy both the body and soul in hell.

God created both Spirits and men, he can destroy them just as easily Satan is not above death.

 

[Floyd]

Yes you are right, there has been a day of judgment set aside for the devil, this is not lost in the Word.

“Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt.25:41 KJV).

But we can ask will someone including Satan suffer for all eternity?

The JW's who do not believe in an immortal soul say no, once you are destroyed you are wiped out for good, where as the Bible speaks of eternal punishment, a lake of fire to be exact.

So does this mean that a person including the devil can live forever in punishment?

​No, death is not life, at the moment the devil has life, however everlasting life as we are told is found in Christ, and in revelation 20:14 we read that death and hades (the holding pen of the dead) are also cast in to the lake which is referred to as the second death. Thats eternal destruction never to return.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 10:28 to fear the One who can destroy both the body and soul in hell.

God created both Spirits and men, he can destroy them just as easily Satan is not above death.

SATAN’S ORIGINS



[SIZE=14pt]Scripture says that Satan was the most magnificent being that God created. The word Satan is Hebrew, and means “an adversary, an enemy, an accuser”. He has other names which are related to Greek, and his role in events yet to be. Note that he is a “created” being, not “begotten”, as only Jesus has that designation! Before Satan became the “adversary”, his name was “Lucifer”, which means “Morning star”, and his fall from favour is described in Isaiah 14:12-15.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There is much confusion and myth regarding Satan, starting in the Garden of Eden. He is there in Gen. 3:1, called a “serpent”, from the Hebrew “nachash”, which means “to hiss, mutter, whisper, etc.”, which has been translated subsequently as “serpent”. An allied Chaldean word means “bright”, which chimes with other Scriptural comment describing Satan as having a “glorious appearance”. In Isaiah 6:2-6, the Hebrew word “seraph” is used to describe “heavenly beings” as “burning bright, and elevated”. In Numbers 21:8, “saraph” is “fiery serpent”. The words seraph and nachash are both used in Scripture to describe a serpent and a glorious spirit being. In 2 Cor. 11:3, Paul fears for the Corinthians, that they will be beguiled as Adam and Eve, and refers to the appearance of Satan on that occasion in 2 Cor. 11-14!![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]So, when Satan beguiled Eve, he was magnificent to behold, as he said "surely thou wilt not die", Gen. 3:4, and he has been saying it ever since, with the consequence that many humans will listen to him, and will go to their destruction! They will listen to Satan, even though they know the difference between good and evil![/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]In summary [/SIZE]of this brief description; Satan was the most beautiful of God’s created creatures. He became enchanted by his own beauty and power, and wanted God’s position Ezek. 28. He is cast from favour, Isaiah 14:12. His name is changed after his rebellion to Satan, and he is allowed to try to stop trust and faith in God on earth, (Job). This process is still under way, and will not end until the events described in Rev. 20:2!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

By immortal do you mean living forever?

It sounds to me like the devil lives for ever ....

eg: .... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

from revelation 20:10

 

[Forsakenone]

The 'evil' principle. I would be interested in hearing your definition of principle.

Thomas Paine is quoted as saying that "Every science has for its basis a system of principles as fixed and unalterable as those by which the universe is regulated and governed. Man cannot make principles—he can only discover them."
I personally define a principle as a rule or truth that was laid from the foundation of the world and remains consistently and constantly valid for the duration of the physical nature under it dominion and authority.

Many say that a spirit is not part of the physical nature of the universe therefore the can be no spiritual principles, I disagree since the spirit does have a physical form, yet it's physical form is a substance without mass. As Genesis 1:1 says, in the beginning the Gods created the heaven and the earth. I know, I am stupid and ignorance, or even evil to some but we know the term God is defined by John 4:24 as a Spirit. So Gods would imply Spirits. So I am no sure what the big revelation it is that the Gods created the heavens [space] and the earth [mass].

So I am well aware that I am considered a heretic because I question the interpretation of Genesis 1:1, so does the principle of evil conclude that, anyone that disregards the clear and plain Biblical scripture by saying the Gods, or Spirits created the heaven and the earth since there is no valid scriptural support for such interpretation, considered evil? Therefore, those under your 'evil' principle who believe God created the heaven and the earths must therefore be good?

 

[Madad21]

surely thou wilt not die", Gen. 3:4, and he has been saying it ever since, with the consequence that many humans will listen to him, and will go to their destruction! They will listen to Satan, even though they know the difference between good and evil!


[SIZE=14pt]In summary [/SIZE]of this brief description; Satan was the most beautiful of God’s created creatures. He became enchanted by his own beauty and power, and wanted God’s position Ezek. 28. He is cast from favour, Isaiah 14:12. His name is changed after his rebellion to Satan, and he is allowed to try to stop trust and faith in God on earth, (Job). This process is still under way, and will not end until the events described in Rev. 20:2!

umm Im pretty well aware of how Satan came to be theres nothing wrong with the info you provided, no arguments here, Im not sure how this relates to my answer though and why you chose to quote me?

Am I missing something?

blessings cuz

 

[Floyd]

umm Im pretty well aware of how Satan came to be theres nothing wrong with the info you provided, no arguments here, Im not sure how this relates to my answer though and why you chose to quote me?

Am I missing something?

blessings cuz

Sorry Madad if I mixed you up with another.
Thanks for pointing it out.
Floyd.

 

[Purity]

The 'evil' principle. I would be interested in hearing your definition of principle.

Thomas Paine is quoted as saying that "Every science has for its basis a system of principles as fixed and unalterable as those by which the universe is regulated and governed. Man cannot make principles—he can only discover them."
I personally define a principle as a rule or truth that was laid from the foundation of the world and remains consistently and constantly valid for the duration of the physical nature under it dominion and authority.

Many say that a spirit is not part of the physical nature of the universe therefore the can be no spiritual principles, I disagree since the spirit does have a physical form, yet it's physical form is a substance without mass. As Genesis 1:1 says, in the beginning the Gods created the heaven and the earth. I know, I am stupid and ignorance, or even evil to some but we know the term God is defined by John 4:24 as a Spirit. So Gods would imply Spirits. So I am no sure what the big revelation it is that the Gods created the heavens [space] and the earth [mass].

So I am well aware that I am considered a heretic because I question the interpretation of Genesis 1:1, so does the principle of evil conclude that, anyone that disregards the clear and plain Biblical scripture by saying the Gods, or Spirits created the heaven and the earth since there is no valid scriptural support for such interpretation, considered evil? Therefore, those under your 'evil' principle who believe God created the heaven and the earths must therefore be good?

This elemental principle of evil diffused itself through man’s nature as the property or the poisonous quality of the evil fruit disobediently eaten.

Gen. 3:15.—I will put enmity (hatred) between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Here the enmity is two-fold; first, proximate and immediate, between the serpent and the woman Eve; and second, ultimate and more remote, between the serpent’s seed and the woman’s seed; that is, between those descendants of Adam over whom the elemental principle of evil should have dominion, and those in whom the holy, just, and good commandment of the Lord God should be the supreme and controlling principle, and of whom one, though “bruised in the heel”— though put to death by the evil principle expressed through the power of his sinful enemies—should “bruise his head” by abolishing death in dying himself; and by rising from the dead incorruptible, destroy that evil and corruptible principle in human nature which had in him “the power of death,” and brought him, though sinless, to the tomb.— (Heb. 2:14.) This evil principle had dominion over Jesus, and reigned in him unto death; but when he rose it had “no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died to sin (was freed from the power of the principle in his flesh); but that he lives, he lives to God.”—(Rom. 5:21; 6:9.)

P.

 

[Floyd]

This elemental principle of evil diffused itself through man’s nature as the property or the poisonous quality of the evil fruit disobediently eaten.

Gen. 3:15.—I will put enmity (hatred) between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Here the enmity is two-fold; first, proximate and immediate, between the serpent and the woman Eve; and second, ultimate and more remote, between the serpent’s seed and the woman’s seed; that is, between those descendants of Adam over whom the elemental principle of evil should have dominion, and those in whom the holy, just, and good commandment of the Lord God should be the supreme and controlling principle, and of whom one, though “bruised in the heel”— though put to death by the evil principle expressed through the power of his sinful enemies—should “bruise his head” by abolishing death in dying himself; and by rising from the dead incorruptible, destroy that evil and corruptible principle in human nature which had in him “the power of death,” and brought him, though sinless, to the tomb.— (Heb. 2:14.) This evil principle had dominion over Jesus, and reigned in him unto death; but when he rose it had “no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died to sin (was freed from the power of the principle in his flesh); but that he lives, he lives to God.”—(Rom. 5:21; 6:9.)

P.

This pure Purity theology (except the "Theo" does not apply).
I have asked Purity to answer his own "teaching", which he has so far refused to do.
This is not harassment, as it follows from his earlier statements on other Threads!
I repeat them below; so that when he answers we can all move to the next stage!


Purity, on 24 May 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

If only you had 39 books to support your notions but you haven't one.

I only need one; The Bible!

It states clearly that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; which is where your apostasy is!
Watching your weasel words is like reading Gen..and Satan's words to Eve; "surely thou shalt not die"!
Ahh. but of course; you don't believe in Satan do you?
That means he never tempted Eve!
That means in your "theology" God introduced temptation and evil!???
That of course would not hold water! So where now your theology?

You say you "praise God regularly"; that means (if you tell the truth), that you "worship in spirit and in truth ( Jhn.4:23-24), unless the "one" you worship, is one of those that Jesus warned would be evident (false Christ's).
You said in an earlier post that you treat the Holy Spirit in the same way as Christ Jesus; ie deny their Deity!
In that case; you cannot "worship in spirit and in truth"; as "God is Spirit"!???
Floyd.

 

[Purity]

Why are we not told to fear this Satan but only mortal men?

Isa 51:12 “I, I am the one who consoles you.

Why are you afraid of mortal men,

of mere human beings who are as short-lived as grass?

13 Why do you forget the Lord, who made you,

who stretched out the sky

and founded the earth?

Why do you constantly tremble all day long

at the anger of the oppressor,

when he makes plans to destroy?

Where is the anger of the oppressor?

14 The one who suffers will soon be released;

he will not die in prison,

he will not go hungry.

15 I am the Lord your God,

who churns up the sea so that its waves surge.

The Lord who commands armies is his name!

16 I commission you as my spokesman;

I cover you with the palm of my hand,

to establish the sky and to found the earth,

to say to Zion, ‘You are my people.’”

Men “fear continually every day” because of the enmity (Gen 3:15 i.e Seed of the Serpent), or fury, or malignity, or cunning, of those who oppress them, or of those who would fain oppress them. They tremble before the wrath of men; they give little thought to the wrath of God. Half the sins that are committed spring from cowardice—a short-sighted cowardice, which consists in fearing those who can, at most, “kill the body,” and not fearing him who after death can “destroy both body and soul in hell” (Matt. 5:28).

A just confidence in God will secure us against such cowardice, since it will make us feel

I. Reliance upon God’s will to save us.
II. Reliance upon God’s power to save us

Two seeds of men -

1. Seed of the Woman (born of a virgin without mans involvement
2. Seed of the serpent (Cain being the first of many)

P.

 

[Floyd]

This pure Purity theology (except the "Theo" does not apply).
I have asked Purity to answer his own "teaching", which he has so far refused to do.
This is not harassment, as it follows from his earlier statements on other Threads!
I repeat them below; so that when he answers we can all move to the next stage!


Purity, on 24 May 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

I only need one; The Bible!

It states clearly that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; which is where your apostasy is!
Watching your weasel words is like reading Gen..and Satan's words to Eve; "surely thou shalt not die"!
Ahh. but of course; you don't believe in Satan do you?
That means he never tempted Eve!
That means in your "theology" God introduced temptation and evil!???
That of course would not hold water! So where now your theology?

You say you "praise God regularly"; that means (if you tell the truth), that you "worship in spirit and in truth ( Jhn.4:23-24), unless the "one" you worship, is one of those that Jesus warned would be evident (false Christ's).
You said in an earlier post that you treat the Holy Spirit in the same way as Christ Jesus; ie deny their Deity!
In that case; you cannot "worship in spirit and in truth"; as "God is Spirit"!???
Floyd.

Waiting for an answer.
Floyd.

 

[Purity]

The word “devil” is a corruption of the Greek word, which signifies slanderer, false accuser, or calumniator. Correctly translated only in three instances.

Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers (diaboloi). 1 Tim. 3:11.

Do you believe Paul here was referring to the Devil?

The wives of deacons be not devils?

 

[Floyd]

The word “devil” is a corruption of the Greek word, which signifies slanderer, false accuser, or calumniator. Correctly translated only in three instances.

Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers (diaboloi). 1 Tim. 3:11.

Do you believe Paul here was referring to the Devil?

The wives of deacons be not devils?

Lets face it Purity; you are totally discredited! Full stop.
You won't even answer questions on your own teachings!!??
Floyd.

 

[Purity]

Lets face it Purity; you are totally discredited! Full stop.
You won't even answer questions on your own teachings!!??
Floyd.

Floyd,

I have answered a great deal but I am pressing you to see if you are honest, diligent and rightly able to divide the Word of Truth.

All I am after is a yes or a no.

Does the Torah teach us about:

Satan
A Heavenly rebellion
A mass exodus of Angels from Heaven?
The Serpent identified as this being?
A fiery abyss?
A section of Scripture dealing with our defences against its wiles?

If another other Christians would like to bow in you are more than welcome.

P.

 

[Floyd]

Floyd,

I have answered a great deal but I am pressing you to see if you are honest, diligent and rightly able to divide the Word of Truth.

All I am after is a yes or a no.

Does the Torah teach us about:

Satan
A Heavenly rebellion
A mass exodus of Angels from Heaven?
The Serpent identified as this being?
A fiery abyss?
A section of Scripture dealing with our defences against its wiles?

If another other Christians would like to bow in you are more than welcome.

P.

Until you answer my points, you are disqualified from discussion with me! You cannot make up your own rules here; either you play the game to the well understood format, or you are not treated seriously by me. When you condescend to give me a reply to my points; I will then answer you!
Floyd.


ps: I am sure you don't want me to post them again.

 

[Purity]

Yes I believe there is a rule about repetitious posting.

 

[Floyd]

Yes I believe there is a rule about repetitious posting.

Yes there is; why don't you complain?

Purity, on 24 May 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:
Purity, on 24 May 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

If only you had 39 books to support your notions but you haven't one.

I only need one; The Bible!

It states clearly that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; which is where your apostasy is!
Watching your weasel words is like reading Gen..and Satan's words to Eve; "surely thou shalt not die"!
Ahh. but of course; you don't believe in Satan do you?
That means he never tempted Eve!
That means in your "theology" God introduced temptation and evil!???
That of course would not hold water! So where now your theology?

You say you "praise God regularly"; that means (if you tell the truth), that you "worship in spirit and in truth ( Jhn.4:23-24), unless the "one" you worship, is one of those that Jesus warned would be evident (false Christ's).
You said in an earlier post that you treat the Holy Spirit in the same way as Christ Jesus; ie deny their Deity!
In that case; you cannot "worship in spirit and in truth"; as "God is Spirit"!???
Floyd.



Great Floyd - and you can believe whatever you want but the Scripture only ever attributes the serpent to be an animal:
Thank you for your permission to "believe what I want"; gracious of you!
Regarding Gen. statement re "the serpent"; Dr. Ginsburg gives clear understanding (as the world's foremost Hebrew Scholar of his day); that the Hebrew word "nachash" is interchangeable with "serpent"; and is so in many parts of Scripture! Satan had/has the ability to "transform" himself into an "angel of light",
and did so in Eden; to the awe of Eve!
So; your "teaching" is in gross error, re Satan's abilities (and freedoms of action), which he exercised in Eden. If you challenge this; you challenge Scholars who are accepted world wide!
Over to you on this one!



2 Cor 11:3 But I(Paul) am afraid that just as the serpent deceived Eve by his treachery, your minds may be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Explained above.
Your mind Floyd has been carried away and deceived with notions of devils.

No Purity; your's is by Satan!
Paul mentions nothing of this creature here but attributes the suggestive thoughts introduce to Eve were from an animal with voice.

Explained above.

Cunning - "Panourgia" (lit, "all working"; crafty, clever, always thinking about how to "trick" someone else) has its roots in Eden.

No; its roots are in Satan and his rebellion against God (you have been given these refs.)

And it is appropriate to men who are the seed of the serpent.

There are not any "seed of the serpent"; in the physical sense; but there are in the metaphoric; which is why you are in danger; unless you repent; accept the Deity of Christ; and beg forgiveness!

Floyd

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Trying to figure this out ?

Purity
Are you referring to the flesh being the real devil ?
That death is called the devil ?
All wicked things come from man's heart and that is the devil in us ?
The Adamic Nature is the devil ?

 

[Purity]

Trying to figure this out ?

Purity
Are you referring to the flesh being the real devil ?
That death is called the devil ?
All wicked things come from man's heart and that is the devil in us ?
The Adamic Nature is the devil ?

Got it in one....well almost.

The study of the devil and satan is more to do with working out from the context the adversary and or the false accuser.

Clearly you have Heb 2:14 in mind?

The Devil is a bad Power—always—a seducing, corrupting, opposing, betraying, murdering, lying, oppressing, ensnaring, slandering, falsely accusing, killing, sinning, dragon-serpent Power! These epithets are simply set down from the Word of God as quoted in the foregoing schedule, and they focalise unerringly in one word: Sin.

“The Devil is a scriptural personification of Sin in the flesh, in its several phases of manifestation—subjective, individual, aggregate, social, and political—in history, current experience, and prophecy, after the style of figure which speaks of Wisdom as a Woman, riches as Mammon and the god of this world, Sin as a Master, etc.”

So whats the meaning of Heb. 2:14 ?

Sinful flesh was laid upon Jesus, “that through death, he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil,” or sin in the flesh (Heb. 2:14); for, “for this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil” (1 Jno. 3:8).

Flesh and its works are style "devil"

Is it clear in your mind that sin is the thing referred to by the apostle in the word, devil?

Why?

The sting of the Serpent is its power of destruction. The “sting of death” is the power of death; and that, the apostle says, in one place, “is sin”; and in another, “is the devil.” There are not two powers of death; but one only. Hence, the devil and sin, though different words, represent the same thing. “Sin had the power of death,” and would have retained it, if the man, who was obedient unto death, had not gained the victory over it. But, thanks be to God, the earth is not to be a charnel house for ever; for he that overcame the world in his own person John 16:33 is destined hereafter to “take away the sin of the world,” and to “make all things new” Rev 21:5. Every curse will then cease Rev 22:3, and death be swallowed up in victory; for death shall be no more Rev 21:4.

The works of the devil, or evil one, are the works of sin. Individually, they are “the works of the flesh” exhibited in the lives of sinners; collectively, they are on a larger scale, as displayed in the polities of the world. All the institutions of the kingdom of the adversary are the works which have resulted from the thinking of sinful flesh; though, happily for the saints of God, “the powers that be” are controlled by Him. They cannot do what they please. Though defiant of His truth, and His hypocritical and malignant enemies, He serves Himself of them; and dashes them against one another when the enormity of their crimes, reaching to heaven, demands His terrible rebuke.

Among the works of sin are the numerous diseases which transgression has brought upon the world. The Hebrews, the idiom of whose language is derived from the Mosaic narrative of the origin of things, referred disease to sin under the names of the devil and Satan. Hence, they inquired, “Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” A woman “bowed together with a spirit of infirmity for eighteen years,” is said to have been “bound of Satan,” or the adversary, for that time; and her restoration to health is termed “loosing her from the bond” Luke 13:10-17.

(I will leave it there for tonight - if you have any questions feel obliged to ask - just not the repetitious kind )

 

[Floyd]

Got it in one....well almost.

The study of the devil and satan is more to do with working out from the context the adversary and or the false accuser.

Clearly you have Heb 2:14 in mind?

The Devil is a bad Power—always—a seducing, corrupting, opposing, betraying, murdering, lying, oppressing, ensnaring, slandering, falsely accusing, killing, sinning, dragon-serpent Power! These epithets are simply set down from the Word of God as quoted in the foregoing schedule, and they focalise unerringly in one word: Sin.

“The Devil is a scriptural personification of Sin in the flesh, in its several phases of manifestation—subjective, individual, aggregate, social, and political—in history, current experience, and prophecy, after the style of figure which speaks of Wisdom as a Woman, riches as Mammon and the god of this world, Sin as a Master, etc.”

So whats the meaning of Heb. 2:14 ?

Sinful flesh was laid upon Jesus, “that through death, he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil,” or sin in the flesh (Heb. 2:14); for, “for this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil” (1 Jno. 3:8).

Flesh and its works are style "devil"

Is it clear in your mind that sin is the thing referred to by the apostle in the word, devil?

Why?



tbc.

Purity, on 24 May 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:
Purity, on 24 May 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

If only you had 39 books to support your notions but you haven't one.

I only need one; The Bible!

It states clearly that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; which is where your apostasy is!
Watching your weasel words is like reading Gen..and Satan's words to Eve; "surely thou shalt not die"!
Ahh. but of course; you don't believe in Satan do you?
That means he never tempted Eve!
That means in your "theology" God introduced temptation and evil!???
That of course would not hold water! So where now your theology?

You say you "praise God regularly"; that means (if you tell the truth), that you "worship in spirit and in truth ( Jhn.4:23-24), unless the "one" you worship, is one of those that Jesus warned would be evident (false Christ's).
You said in an earlier post that you treat the Holy Spirit in the same way as Christ Jesus; ie deny their Deity!
In that case; you cannot "worship in spirit and in truth"; as "God is Spirit"!???
Floyd.