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theefaith

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The Ark of Salvation!

The church is founded by Christ and the sacraments are instituted by Christ for the salvation of all men!

The church and Jesus are one: acts 9:4 Jn 15:1-5 eph 5:32

The church and the sacraments are necessary for and the means of salvation and the life of grace!

Redemption: Eph 2
Justification: Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 Acts 2:38
Sanctification: Jn 1:16 Jn 10:10 Jn 15:5
Salvation: Matt 24:13 Rom 13:11

The body of Christ:
1 Corinthians 12:27

The one true church:
Matt 16:18 Jn 10:16

The household of faith:
Gal 6:10

The house of God:
1 Tim 3:15

The church of the living God:
1 Tim 3:15

The kingdom of God on earth:
Dan 2:44 Matt 6:33 Matt 16:18 Matt 12:28 Mk 1:15 Jn 3:3-5 Acts 8:12 1 Cor 4:20 Col 4:11 1 Thes 2:12 Rev 1:9 12:10

The new and eternal covenant:
The one fold of Christ:

The new covenant body of Christ church is an ark, the ark of Peter, the ark of Noah was a type, all those outside the ark died, and all those outside the church die spiritually, there is no life outside of Noah’s ark and there is no spiritual life or salvation outside of the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles!

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Christian ritual of baptism:
Immersion, sprinkling, pour pure water over the forehead three time with the words, I baptize thee in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit! Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 Acts 2:38-39 Acts 8:36-38 Acts 22:16
1 Pet 3:21

Proper intention: to make a new creature in Christ, to put on Christ, initiation into the new covenant of grace
Matter: pure water
Form: the words

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)


Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by baptism!

Ez 36:25 I (God) shall sprinkle you with pure water, and you shall be white as snow!




Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

God provides for everything:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He is the way we must follow!
He is the truth we must believe!
He is the life, life of grace thru the sacraments of the church in which we must live!

Abide in Christ and His church with grace and life provided by God thru the sacraments!

Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Baptism: (initiation into the covenant)
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Eucharist: (holy communion)
Mt 26:26-39 Jn 6:51-58 1 Cor 11:23-25

Confession of sins:
Jn 20:23

Confirmation
Mt 17:27 Lk 22:32 acts 8:14-17
acts 14:22

Marriage:
Matt 19:4-6

Holy orders: (priesthood)
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru His priesthood in Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 10:1-8 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 acts 1:17 acts 6:4 acts 8:26
2 Cor 5:18 1 Tim 4:14 Eph 2:20

Extreme unction: (anointing with oil)
1 Tim 4:14 James 5:14

The one, holy, catholic, (universal) and apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter and the apostles!

The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises or an oath of sacramental life of grace!

Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
 

theefaith

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Sacraments instituted by Christ for the salvation of souls!

It’s not a do it yourself religion!
It’s not a bible study!

It’s a covenant!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” aint biblical!

You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!

Psalm 51 Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ!

The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10
And they are applied to our souls in the church by faith and the seven sacraments!

“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by baptism!

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

Jn 10:10 life, (grace more abundantly)
Jn 1: 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Jn 1:16-17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(Thru faith and the sacraments!)
 

theefaith

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Seriously?
Speaking directly to a person, calling him ‘father’ IS Calling another person “father”. You know like every time you directly are speaking to one of your Priests and you directly call him “father”, YOU ARE DOING EXACTLY what Scripture says NOT TO DO.

Speaking about another person as a “father”, is NOT directly calling that person “father”.

Why DO YOU call a priest to his face.....”father”?
Does he not have a name?


Matt 23:
[8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
[9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
[10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!
 

michaelvpardo

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You need to read your scripture quotes more carefully because Zechariah is not talking about heaven. The first line says: "...all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem..." How could you miss it?
The doctrine of purgatory began in kernel form with the Jews, not the Catholic Church. But you don't insult the Jews; that would be politically incorrect.


I like Zechariah too.

Zechariah 9:11 As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will set your captives free from the waterless pit.

A "waterless pit" can't mean hell because we all know there is no getting out of hell. We all know there are no captives in heaven, so where were the captives???

It's no proof text, but it strongly suggests purgatory.

25 Bible Passages Indicating or Suggesting Purgatory
Thank you for confirming my argument with BOL. Zechariah chapter 14 speaks to the judgment of all the nations and the restoration of Israel under the rule of the Lord.
It's a parallel passage to Revelation chapters 21 and 22.
Neither Zechariah's Jerusalem or the New Jerusalem of Revelation chapters 21 and 22 are in heaven.
 

BreadOfLife

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Oh, I see, the RCC can't burn us at the stake or behead us any longer for disagreeing, so they threaten us with being cast into hell for disagreeing. Sounds about right!
No can they hang you like the Calvinists who murdered the Catholic Martyrs of Gorkum – and they can’t starve you to death like Henry VIII and Elizabeth I did to about 72,000 Catholics.

There’s PLENTY of blood on everyone’s hands in Church history – so don’t come whining to me about that.

Study your HISTORY, for cryin’ out loud . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You've "explained" zilch mate, you've simply fired off a big blunderbuss blast of assorted convoluted verses like a tangled furball..
And an intelligent person would be able to DEBINK those “convoluted verses”.

But, I would NEVER accuse you of being intelligent . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Well why do they toddle along to their catholic priest in that confessional box thing?..:p
If a person is NOT contrite and does NOT come to confession with a penitent heart, the priest does NOT have to give them absolution as Jesus prescribed.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; IF YOU WITHHOLD FORGIVENESS FROM ANY, IT IS WITHHELD.”

READ your Bible. You MIGHT not wind up making so many idiotic remarks . . .
 

Charlie24

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where does scripture say so
Timothy is the successor of Paul
Matt 28:18 the nations still need be taught the disciples need baptismal regeneration

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15

Fundamentalism drives a wedge between Christ and his church, separates Christ from His kingdom, and the authority of Christ from the new covenant!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

Extends to the truth and the church

Cos Christ is the truth and His church teaches the truth without error! Jn 14:6 matt 28:19 matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15 Jn 29:21-23 Jn 16:13

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

That does not mean Timothy was an apostle in succession to the 12.

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and even his name in not recorded to be on the foundations with the 12.

There is no succession from the 12!
 

Charlie24

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No can they hang you like the Calvinists who murdered the Catholic Martyrs of Gorkum – and they can’t starve you to death like Henry VIII and Elizabeth I did to about 72,000 Catholics.

There’s PLENTY of blood on everyone’s hands in Church history – so don’t come whining to me about that.

Study your HISTORY, for cryin’ out loud . . .

Always a pleasure to have conversation with you, BOL.
 

BreadOfLife

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Another straw man argument? Really?
I'll just answer your last question from a parallel passage that you seem to have forgotten to read.

Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles."
Zechariah 14:16-19

Does this sound like a place of purity and perfection?
This is nonsenseapples and oranges.
Zechariah 14 is NOT describing Heaven OR the Heavenly Jerusalem.
 

michaelvpardo

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This is nonsenseapples and oranges.
Zechariah 14 is NOT describing Heaven OR the Heavenly Jerusalem.
That is correct, but it describes the judgment and the kingdom ruled by God, which is exactly the same as what the book of the Revelation is addressing.
The "heavenly Jerusalem " doesn't remain in heaven, but comes down from heaven. You're not suggesting that it comes down to heaven from heaven are you?
Or perhaps you see two different kingdoms where God reigns in righteousness? That might be described as apples and oranges, but as far as I know the prophets all speak to one future kingdom, not two, or apples and apples.
 

BreadOfLife

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Thank you for confirming my argument with BOL. Zechariah chapter 14 speaks to the judgment of all the nations and the restoration of Israel under the rule of the Lord.
It's a parallel passage to Revelation chapters 21 and 22.
Neither Zechariah's Jerusalem or the New Jerusalem of Revelation chapters 21 and 22 are in heaven.
WRONG.

Verse 10 explicitly states:
Rev. 21:10
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD.

ANYTHING that comes down from Heaven from God and cannot be defiled - means that HEAVEN itself cannot be defiled.
If a wooden box covered with gold could not be defiled by penalty of DEATH – how much MORE undefiled do oyou think HEAVEN is.

You’re out of your mind if you believe that Rev. 21:27 does NOT include Heaven itself.
 

michaelvpardo

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WRONG.

Verse 10 explicitly states:
Rev. 21:10
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD.

ANYTHING that comes down from Heaven from God and cannot be defiled - means that HEAVEN itself cannot be defiled.
If a wooden box covered with gold could not be defiled by penalty of DEATH – how much MORE undefiled do oyou think HEAVEN is.

You’re out of your mind if you believe that Rev. 21:27 does NOT include Heaven itself.
You're arguing logical fallacies. The city, like the tabernacle of God comes down to men. But you're wrong about Heaven anyway. Scripture says we'll judge angels, and that God sees even angels as impure in His sight.
Your theology is unbiblical. What a shock.
 

BreadOfLife

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That is correct, but it describes the judgment and the kingdom ruled by God, which is exactly the same as what the book of the Revelation is addressing.
The "heavenly Jerusalem " doesn't remain in heaven, but comes down from heaven. You're not suggesting that it comes down to heaven from heaven are you?
Or perhaps you see two different kingdoms where God reigns in righteousness? That might be described as apples and oranges, but as far as I know the prophets all speak to one future kingdom, not two, or apples and apples.
And the idea that anything that comes down from Heaven, from GOD is MORE undefiled that WHERE and WHOM it came from is sheepr nonsense.

If you can believe that the Ark of the Covenant – a wooden box made by human hands was pure, holy and undefiled by penalty of death – and God’s dwelling place, Heaven is NOT as holy and undefiled – then you DON’T know God.
 

theefaith

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That does not mean Timothy was an apostle in succession to the 12.

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and even his name in not recorded to be on the foundations with the 12.

There is no succession from the 12!

then 1 century Christians had privileges that we don’t have

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, andspeak face to face, that our joy may be full.
 

theefaith

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That does not mean Timothy was an apostle in succession to the 12.

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and even his name in not recorded to be on the foundations with the 12.

There is no succession from the 12!

then we had jurisdictional authority of apostles now we have spiritual anarchy
 

michaelvpardo

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And the idea that anything that comes down from Heaven, from GOD is MORE undefiled that WHERE and WHOM it came from is sheepr nonsense.

If you can believe that the Ark of the Covenant – a wooden box made by human hands was pure, holy and undefiled by penalty of death – and God’s dwelling place, Heaven is NOT as holy and undefiled – then you DON’T know God.
I forgive you, but I know the Lord very well and you could too. Just place your trust in the only God and Savior, believe in His resurrection, and ask for His Spirit.
 
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