Do I Have To Go To Church?

[Renniks]

Well, I feel church is very important. Going to church certainty doesn't make you a Christian. But, it is a command and corporate worship has great value, plus fellowship with like minded people has much value. I've attended a bunch of different churches with different focus'. There are very few you can't get some good from if you try. If you want to find fault, there's always something to find fault with, because churches are made up of imperfect human beings.
If, however you are stuck in a church where you are not fed, or fed unbiblical stuff, it doesn't' hurt to search for a better one. They are out there, but again, none of them are perfect.

 

[Helen]

Makes perfect biblical sense, but finding it is about as rare as hens teeth.

Agree
For myself I no longer just go along to any old gathering, just to do the 'christian political thing' of making sure I am 'gathering together'.

 

[Pisteuo]

I am amazed at just how often I have an opportunity to assemble with other Christians yet I rarely attend meetings held in a building dedicated to be a church. Every single day and almost every second of the day. I wouldn’t know any other life anymore. Praise God. Church doesn’t end for us unless we let ourselves get in the way. Someone always needs something...somewhere. God presents the opportunity if you are willing. I have nothing against those that attend regular services in buildings designed for “church” as long as that does not hinder you from being the Church God intended for you to be. But for me I can not see how sitting in a pew for years is gonna be edifying for Him. The people in the church buildings usually already know God and are mostly well. I love spreading the good news to those that need it most.
I know every one of us are different with different callings. This is my opinion on this matter having both set in the pew and walked the street.

 

[bbyrd009]

Now, come on a bit...this is just stretching it a little, don't you think? It's a rather natural progression to call a building that the Church Body uses to gather in 'church', rather than "that building that we purchased with sole intent to gather together on a weekly or bi-weekly basis to worship God and grow together as a family and knowledge in our Lord". It's just a bit long, don't you think? Calling it 'church' implies that is where we go to do all the things we do corporately as Christ's body. And I think if a person is just going to get knit-picky about the particular phrase being used...well...it's IS just a bit knit-picky. Especially since most Christians can tell you that the building itself does NOT make the Church. It is and always has been the people.

I mean let’s admit that very little if any true “worship” according to the Scriptural def happens in that hour on Sunday morning in what we call “church.”

 

[Ezra]

It's not completely clear to me, but it appears there are 2 judgements

this judgement is the bema/awards judgment 1 cor 3 our works that we built with judged by the fire wood hay stubble works will burn but we our self saved. gold silver precious stones ill stand the test by fire , not a judgment of who is saved and is not saved . we even have the judgment of nations of course the white throne judgement for the lost

 

[FHII]

Balance there is to also consider: you say you believe, good for you, so do the devils.

Would you care to expound on that and how applies to what I said?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Balance there is to also consider: you say you believe, good for you, so do the devils.

And you also claim to believe, exactly like the devils. Is that good enough, that you say you believe?

 

[Ezra]

paul wrote i know in whom I have believed note the word KNOW yes many believe back in my heathen days i believed in God in Jesus in the Bible . but yet i was lost on the highway to hell .the key is to KNOW have a personal relationship if we know in whom we have believed. then we are on the right highway of Holiness

 

[Naomi25]

Never said you couldnt do as you please, God gave us all free will, and He knew full well we will do as we please. Just remeber it is what you are joined to. Christ Bride His church is a spiritual, clean spotless without blemish, mens church is a harlot, if thats what you choose to be joined to that is your choice,

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

But again, HOW is it you can have any true knowledge as to the state of every member of the body...that which makes up the Church?
I suspect the problem here is terminology. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but...you seem to see that the gatherings of men within buildings is "mans church". Whereas 'Christs church' is the body of true believers?
The problem with that is, you've added an extra 'church' where there is none. There is one Church...one body...those people who ARE believers, who ARE saved and born again in Christ. There is no question if they have Christ or not, as they cannot be part of the body if they have not had their sins forgiven by him.
The only question is....should these believers...this body, meet together regularly to share fellowship? And, when they do, will other people who are NOT legally part of this body, be there as well. The answer is 'yes'. And one of the biggest reasons for this is...we invite them. I know there is many ways to share the gospel with unbelievers, but inviting them into fellowship is a big part of it.
What about the wolves, you say? Those who purposely strive to drive wedges in between this fellowship, to split the church. Well, Christ told us they would be with us. He told us they would be with us, and would also 'go out from us, proving that they were not really of us'. When we, as the church body stand strong in the principles and foundings of our faith, we have the strength and spiritual power of God to overthrow these wolves. But, of course it is much easier to do so when standing together. There is nothing a wolf likes more than an easy prey of one or two.

I suppose what I'm driving at is this: Yes, I do recognize your freedom to chose as you will. But I think you have erred in how you see 'the Church', and that has thrown you off, somewhat. And I do think you need to be very, very careful in calling the Church names. Because, IF the bible does indeed teach that there is only one Church, one body, and that all believers...you, who avoids meeting, and me, who attends, are part of this body...then you are calling most of this body, this bride, a harlot. So...I just advise caution and a little grace. Call out the wolves, by all means. But try recognizing that many....most! of the people gathering together to worship Christ, do so because they love him, not because they are bound by man's 'harlot' religion.

 

[Naomi25]

i agree it is rather a natural prog, yes, and wadr if i laid it out for us, how we got there, you might agree that i havent gone far enough. But i dont mean to imply that there aren't a few good souls in congregations too, of course! Even Christian ones, sure.

for whatever reason Codependency comes to mind again here, ppl are often very helpful and "loving" as a way to feel superior or needed, and it is understood that developed countries generate codependence?

so fwiw dont get me wrong, you have some good points there, but i also doubt that most Christians could point to Church correctly. Nothing wrong with that though imo, thats what church is for!
a like a negative example maybe, if you will

With all due respect to you, I disagree heartily. God's people 'gathering together' has been a tradition that started in the OT, seen all throughout the NT and then continued after Christ. And rather asking "how did we get here", which may be historically interesting, but not much more, we ought to be asking "what purpose does our gathering together hold?" Is there just some cultural appropriation behind our gathering together as Christians, or does it serve our faith more deeply? Serve our God? And we can answer that in a resounding 'yes'. We can answer it 'yes' even in a historical setting, quite frankly. In the OT knowing God's word, his law, was paramount. These people knew it by rote. And considering not many of them could read or write, they learned it by gathering together for public readings under the Rabbi's. We see clearly in the NT that people gathered together regularly on Sabbaths for teachings. From the Laws and from the Histories of the patriarchs. And then as the Church exploded we see them gathering together regularly together to pray, sing, read and teach...or learn. And again, as the Apostles sent out their letters, the congregations would gather and have it read out to them in one whole sitting.
And here's why; when you "do life" with other people...when you grow, share, learn, love, with them...you are family. And we ARE family with our brothers in sisters in Christ. The more united we are as a family, the more able we should be to show God's love to the world. WE step forward and call out in one voice.
So...no, I don't agree with you. But...as we know...this won't be the first time, and we'll both go on living!

i pretty much like this down to the last line, which is imo ppl kidding themselves, mostly. As a general rule ppl like those things bc they justify their behavior and desires, maybe. At least much more often imo

i mean lets not forget there is no "When we all get to heaven?"
look around your "congregation," or any congregation; according to the Sinai census, how many of your cong will experience the kingdom? Likely not even a single one, right

Actually, I think most of my congregation will. There are a few people there who I think are probably not truly saved and just tag along with the spouse. But mostly, we have a pretty awesome little congregation. And anyone who is in Christ...well...they WILL see the kingdom. Heck, they've already seen the beginnings of it. The Kingdom grows even now, and we're a part of it.

 

[Naomi25]

So I am in the thread after all , I had forgotten it.

I am a bone to bone person ...if you understand .
To me even today it seems that tripping work.

In my 55 saved years I have attended meeting or gatherings of christians , in some place I was just there because I was there.
And praise God, at other times I was there because i BELONGED , I was 'a part of' I was a fully functioning member in a live local body.

We have the vision in Ez of the dry bones...and how did they come alive?
When GOD breathed into them and spoke ...bone was joined to bone.
Just trotting along to a local "church' does not a local Body make.
If the leadership have no idea how to minister Body-life to a congregation it can just stay a glob of christians together , with no more cohesion than sitting in a movie theatre.
A leader who knows how to nurture, and with discernment in recognizing the callings and gifting of his flock and so encourages them in this..will grow a healthy vibrant local body.

It is the Holy Spirit who joins bone to bone and builds the group.

Control and fear by the leadership is what stifles growth and stifles the people...that is not a healthy functioning Body.

This makes godly sense to me...not sure it will to you?

'Bone to bone'...can't say I have heard that before, or understood. Reading your post helped a little! And...well...I like you point. I think, though, it takes the whole body, not just the Pastor. the Pastor is at the head, sure...he needs to guide and nurture. But, like you said, ultimately its the Holy Spirit, and each member has (or should have) that, which means, to my mind, it's a whole body proposition. Sort of like Paul's analogy...what good is a body without a leg, or an arm, or a hand..?! We all need to work together in the place God has put us to make the whole function like it ought.
Of course...having said that...I know it often doesn't work as smoothly as it sounds. It would be nice if it did. And yes, I do think having a wise, discerning leader is important to start the rest of the body functioning in that way. I wonder if there's a way we can help them in that? There's probably a lot of people in the pulpit who just shouldn't be. But I expect there are a good number who are truly called to it and just need a little help from their 'flock'. It would be nice if we could know what to do to help bump them in the right direction.

 

[Naomi25]

I mean let’s admit that very little if any true “worship” according to the Scriptural def happens in that hour on Sunday morning in what we call “church.”

I'm sorry, but I think that's a judgement call you simply cannot make. Unless you've been IN all the 'churches'. And know all the hearts of those singing, praying, etc.

 

[Pisteuo]

This has probably already been asked, but:
How do Christians in N Korea, Afghanistan, or the many other countries that don’t allow corporate Christian worship assemble themselves together? Does the verse just get thrown out? Or do we view the verse differently because we are free to worship how we choose?

 

[bbyrd009]

With all due respect to you, I disagree heartily. God's people 'gathering together' has been a tradition that started in the OT, seen all throughout the NT and then continued after Christ.

and a big and obvious problem we have now is all of the divisions among those who insist that theirs is the tradition that inherited it, dont you think? It sounds like a great idea, this gathering of like minded (in what are really love feasts btw and not worship at all imo, but nevermind) believers into, basically, splinter groups, but i suggest that our current definition of "church" is actually pretty rotten?
esp at the moment?

Is there just some cultural appropriation behind our gathering together as Christians, or does it serve

well, there is usually some kind of appropriating going on anyway...
but dont get me wrong, not denying Institutional church has a place ok
(sheep need shearing )

And here's why; when you "do life" with other people

hey, other people that would be awesome imo, doing life with other people would be great, only clanning up with your homies kinda stifles that yeh, i mean any Muslims in your "church" bac?
see?
"Church" has now been appropriated, for all intents and purposes, when this one reads "church" she will understand "me and my congregation"
basically even if a Jim Jones is leading it
see that was still called "church"

anyway hence my objection. That def of "church" ends up being exclusive, not "others" at all

I'm sorry, but I think that's a judgement call you simply cannot make. Unless you've been IN all the 'churches'. And know all the hearts of those singing, praying, etc.

ah, but are widows and orphans and strangers being regarded, really that isnt the program yeh? Not saying it doesnt happen, but usually much more symbolically, lets say.

Most "churches" are open several hours a week, at best. Some only two.
i man call it church if you want, the whole rest of the wrold does right

 

[Mike Waters]

It's not completely clear to me, but it appears there are 2 judgements, one in the first resurrection, in which we, the church, (judgement begins with us)are judged according to what we did in the body. There seems to me to be the possibilities of, 1. Good and faithful servant, 2. Saved, but as if through fire and, 3. Cast into outer darkness.

Then there is another judgement in which there is a second resurrection of all men who ever lived and it appears to me this is based on if your name is written in a book or not written in a book.

Now that's a coincidence.
I'm just in the middle of wondering about how to interrelate Corinthian's Judgement Set of Christ with Revelation's Great White Throne.
I suspect it may well be one event seen through a glass darkly by Paul and then later revealed more clearly to John.

 

[bbyrd009]

This has probably already been asked, but:
How do Christians in N Korea, Afghanistan, or the many other countries that don’t allow corporate Christian worship assemble themselves together? Does the verse just get thrown out? Or do we view the verse differently because we are free to worship how we choose?

wherever two or three are gathered, the v usually used for that?
hardly fits our Corporate "Worship" model at all, does it

so yeh, our perspective is surely being expressed huh
the v is conspicuously vague enough lol

 

[Pisteuo]

No I meant the “ forsake not the assembling...”

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Now that's a coincidence.
I'm just in the middle of wondering about how to interrelate Corinthian's Judgement Set of Christ with Revelation's Great White Throne.
I suspect it may well be one event seen through a glass darkly by Paul and John.

There are a lot of verses in different places, but when you collect them all, it does not seem to me like this could be so. It seems to start showing a picture of 2 different judgements at 2 different times (to me.)

Even just that some will be resurrected and will reign with Christ for a thousand years, but that the rest will not be resurrected until after that thousand years, suggests it to me. I think its the righteous and the holy who are in that resurrection.

And there seems to have been a resurrection before too, when it says they saw many of their dead walking around. Its all so strange!

 

[bbyrd009]

contemplate those happening right now
fwiw

No I meant the “ forsake not the assembling...”

ah i think they just gather in home congregations, more discreetly?

 

[FHII]

To all,

Hebrews 10:25 says not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. The next 3 verses give a very harsh warning for doing so. They state if we sin wilfully (and it's speaking of forsaking the assembly) there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

This leads me to believe it's not just meeting up with your Christian friends for coffee or something like that.

Romans 10:14-17 says that faith comes by hearing the word of God and asks the rhetorical question, "how can you hear without a preacher"?

1 Corinthians 1:21 says that God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Ephesians 4:12-13 says the ministry was given for the perfecting of the saints so we would all come to unity.

Yes, you can be preached to one on one, and these verses apply, but they also apply when preaching is done to a group. But the point is you need a preacher and a ministry in some form to be saved, be perfected and be in unity. That seems hard, but please look at the verses and see for yourself. If you can find another way to be saved, fine... But God through his Apostles said these things.

1 Corinthians 11 and 14, as well as James 2 outline behavior to be observed during and assembly. Why are such rules given if it's not assumed there will be an assembly?

1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11 describe a govt and hierarchy for a Church. And 1 Timothy and Titus outline expectations and qualifications for ministers, deacons, bishops, etc. I ask again, why would such things be written if they weren't needed due to the notion that we don't need to go to Church? It doesn't say you have to go, but it's assumed that you will go.

Romans 13 is a controversial chapter. It starts by saying we should be subject to higher powers. Most people think that means govt, but careful reading says it's talking about ministers of God. Yes, we are subject into Jesus, but the opening 8 or so verses say to be subject into his ministers.

But... If you think govt is there for your good and are always going God's will... Ok... I won't even bother you trying to change your mind. If you are on the fence about it, let me know because I have written an essay about it.

Folks will say that the Body of Christ is the Church, and it's world wide. I absolutely agree! There won't be a rebuttal of that. And no, the entire Body cannot meet all at once. That is not to say there aren't local congregations and that is not to say they shouldn't assemble.

Revelations chapters 2-4 list 7 separate Churches in Asia. Each had various problems, attributes or warnings.

In Acts 15:41 Paul went about and confirmed churches (plural). In Acts 16:5 churches were established and grew. Romans 16:5 says Paul laid down his life for all the churches of the gentiles. 1 Corinthians 4:17 and 7:17 says Paul taught something in every church.

1Corinthians 11:16 is a bit different. Paul said there wasn't a certain custom in any of the churches of God.

There are more, but what I have listed is more than sufficient to make my point. Yes, the Body of Christ is the Church. That is true and in context to what the Bible teaches. However, it's not the only way the word "church" is used. It also means a local body, and they were to assemble.

Some have stated they have a problem with a Church being a building. Well, I understand that and I understand that most of the time Christian's met in houses and private homes.

To this I say, that's because that was what was possible. They were few in number, persecuted and in many places too poor to have their own building. Count it a blessing that we in this day (in many countries) can support a place of worship!

However, Jesus, while he did hold services on mountain tops, groves and beaches (and people assembled), he also taught in the Temple daily.

Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 11:18 says, "...when ye come together in the church...". Now the "ye" is the Body of Christ, but they were coming together in a church. It may have actually been a house, bit it ceased to be a house and was now a designated church. Paul confirms this because he disallowed eating and drinking and said they should do that at home. This, the house at that point wasn't someone's home.

This post is long already. But shall I note all the times folks assembled and had "church"? I will spare you of that!

There are notions that no man will teach you but the HG will. Yea, that's in the Bible. It does not say, however, how the HG will do it. The general pattern in the Bible is men speaking under the power of the HG to other men. I absolutely believe all the Apostles and authors of the books of the Bible did so under the inspiration of the HG. This post being long enough, I will simply rely on 2 Peter 2:30-21.

There are other minor issues to address, but I will let them go. With all I said, and all the verses I've given, I wonder how anyone could be against going to Church. Yes, I realize that the majority of Churches are preaching error. That's why I sympathize with those who say we don't have to. It's tough to find a true Church! But it doesn't negate the fact we should.

It's a terrible problem! But I say don't despise going to Church, but look for a real one! And a real one isn't always going to tingle your ear, but it will prove its doctrine.

One other thing... I have spoken out on the bickering during this thread. Many are tired of it. The problem is that good people get sucked into it. It snowballs. Two good people can end up being uncivil with one another.

The only way I see this ending is we all be our brother's keeper and deem it unacceptable. We must pledge not to do it, call out those who do it, and accept a rebuke if we do it (and forgive such). I am not going to be the niceness police on the board. But someone had to start something.

So there is a plan. If you are sick of it, don't do it, and don't sit idle when others do it.

All that being said, I am done with this post. I have made my final arguments. Rebuttals will go unanswered. The floor is yours. I will only answer questions that ask for clarificatin. On something I said.

My concluding statement is that all these points are evidence that we should go to Church. I agree that the Church is the Body of Christ and is world wide, but it is comprised of local congregations. And I agree you should chose wisely, as not every body that says they are a Church is a true Church. And I conclude that we, as Christian's but also as civil humans, should treat each other civilly.