Do I Have To Go To Church?

[Naomi25]

These days going to the doctors office or hospital is risky because you are more likely to catch something.
Going to church ditto...churches often mess more people up than they help them

I wonder how much of this is because people go to Church expecting to be: entertained, looked after, supported, fed...what-have-you....rather than going with the hopes of doing all that for others.
I think too often people miss the fact that as 'members of Christ' we aren't encouraged to attend Church 'cause we've got to, or because it helps us grow in our knowledge and wisdom of God (although those are helpful benefits we ought to also get)...its about family. As Christians we have been adopted into the family of God. No relationship can flourish without time being spent together, loving and serving one another. And yes, that includes the annoying Aunts and Uncles we just can't figure out and want to avoid.
So all these other things that people argue over; entertainment, teaching, outreach, evangelism...these are all good things, but they tend to overflow from a healthy Church that has a firm grasp of where they are in God's plan for them; family and unity. And as a general rule, people like those things, especially when they're in line with how God made them to be.

 

[Naomi25]

yes, mary, that part is not the problem imo, its that we still call it "church" when its locked up and no ones there, which is the vast majority of the time, im sure? For most "churches" anyway? Iow "church" becomes associated with a place

hmm, just like heaven does! ha!

Now, come on a bit...this is just stretching it a little, don't you think? It's a rather natural progression to call a building that the Church Body uses to gather in 'church', rather than "that building that we purchased with sole intent to gather together on a weekly or bi-weekly basis to worship God and grow together as a family and knowledge in our Lord". It's just a bit long, don't you think? Calling it 'church' implies that is where we go to do all the things we do corporately as Christ's body. And I think if a person is just going to get knit-picky about the particular phrase being used...well...it's IS just a bit knit-picky. Especially since most Christians can tell you that the building itself does NOT make the Church. It is and always has been the people.

 

[Naomi25]

Oh ye we can

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

but I guess you dont believe in all that stuff do you. Following Christ being Led by the Spirit, whoda thought such a thing.

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Just a quick question: what happens if the majority of Christians are 'following Christ and the leading of the Spirit' into gathering together with other Christians weekly?
You still against it then?
Thanks.

 

[mjrhealth]

Just a quick question: what happens if the majority of Christians are 'following Christ and the leading of the Spirit' into gathering together with other Christians weekly?
You still against it then?
Thanks.

Who said I had anything against gathering... Do as you will if you must.

 

[Naomi25]

Who said I had anything against gathering... Do as you will if you must.

You just seem to be arguing, and hard, against the notion. In fact you seem to often weigh the two (being more or less solitary, or assembling with other Christians) as a difference between “having Christ” and only “having men and religion”, which, you know, is a fairly heavy accusation I’m not sure you have any possible way to back up.
My point being: if you, personally, feel led NOT to gather together with other Christians, then you should live that way. But I don’t know that you then have much grounds to then tell others how THEY must be led, or what the outcome of that leading is. I think unless you have visited every gathering of Christ’s body and truly gotten to know the people involved and the heart of those there, it really is irresponsible to make broad statements about the Church in general.

 

[mjrhealth]

You just seem to be arguing, and hard, against the notion. In fact you seem to often weigh the two (being more or less solitary, or assembling with other Christians) as a difference between “having Christ” and only “having men and religion”, which, you know, is a fairly heavy accusation I’m not sure you have any possible way to back up.
My point being: if you, personally, feel led NOT to gather together with other Christians, then you should live that way. But I don’t know that you then have much grounds to then tell others how THEY must be led, or what the outcome of that leading is. I think unless you have visited every gathering of Christ’s body and truly gotten to know the people involved and the heart of those there, it really is irresponsible to make broad statements about the Church in general.

Remember Moses, 40 years he spent in the desert, than there was Joseph, thrown in a well, made a prisoner, you know what they had, God, you know what church doesnt have God, It may be filled with some christians, doesnt mean he has to be a part on mens religions. Mens churches may be filled with "christians" but our Lords church is struggling to find anyone to follow after Him. The problem is you dont know what "church" is. Jesus came to set teh captives free, but some prefer to stay in captivity. People in church might be saved, but there is a tribulation coming, how many will be found in Him.

Luk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
Luk 14:17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
Luk 14:18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
Luk 14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
Luk 14:22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
Luk 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
Luk 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

 

[Naomi25]

Remember Moses, 40 years he spent in the desert, than there was Joseph, thrown in a well, made a prisoner, you know what they had, God, you know what church doesnt have God, It may be filled with some christians, doesnt mean he has to be a part on mens religions. Mens churches may be filled with "christians" but our Lords church is struggling to find anyone to follow after Him. The problem is you dont know what "church" is. Jesus came to set teh captives free, but some prefer to stay in captivity. People in church might be saved, but there is a tribulation coming, how many will be found in Him.

Luk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
Luk 14:17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
Luk 14:18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
Luk 14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
Luk 14:22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
Luk 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
Luk 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

Okay, well, first I would say that those verses are specifically addressed to Israel - the original invitees to the Kingdom, and then Gentiles - those invited when the first refused. So...it's not really fitting our context.
Secondly, it's pretty daring to declare that the 'church' doesn't have God. Let's put aside the fact that the Church is made up of Christ's body and therefore cannot NOT have God...and let's just focus in on the idea of you being able to know if 'the church' has God or not. Your ability to make that call for the whole of what you term 'the church' is the same as you claiming to know the state of every person's heart and standing with Christ. Only God knows that.
I understand that there are plenty of people who attend the gathering of the Body, what you call 'the church', who are not Christians, who do not have Christ as their Lord and Saviour. But it is wrong to categorize the rest of Christ's body, those who he has indeed died and risen for, in the same group as them, do you not think? Indeed, as a Christian yourself, whether you meet with us or not, you too are part of the body. Saying that the body doesn't have God, you essentially say you, yourself, don't have God, which makes little sense.
And lastly...tribulation is probably coming, indeed. But...tribulation has always been with the Church. I find it theologically interesting that when we look at scripture we see some things that stand out to us when the Apostles write to us about such things. First, yes, being in the Holy Spirit is the most important thing we will need to stand against such hardship. But, rather blatantly, we see encouragement, rebuke, teaching and heartfelt longing sent from these men....to 'the Churches'. Some of the books of the bible are addresses to single people, this is true, but mostly, we see them being sent to the people gathering in Galatia, Rome, Corinth, Thessalonica...the 7 Churches in Revelation? These people, as a WHOLE...as they gathered together to read, not only these letters (which we God's inspired word) and earlier scriptures...did not just do it in perfect, wonderful accord. No...people, even saved people, are still fallen. We disagree, we get angry, we do stupid and sometimes disgraceful things. Most of the time Paul, or whoever wrote the letter, would not teach that these people needed to be ejected from the gathering. Or that they "didn't have God". No! He called them to adjust their attitudes and behaviours and hearts to be inline with the gospel! And he called the brothers and sisters around those who were stumbling to come along side them and help them. That is, after all, what family does.
So...while I absolutely recognize your freedom to choose not to meet with your family members, I must say that you have no right to judge the state of everyone else. It is something you cannot possibly know, and scripturally, anyone IN Christ IS the Church. And if they feel called to meet, for all the reasons that have been laid out in this thread, then I'm not sure you can do anything but accord us the same freedom. Not without invalidating your own.

 

[mjrhealth]

So...while I absolutely recognize your freedom to choose not to meet with your family members, I must say that you have no right to judge the state of everyone else. It is something you cannot possibly know, and scripturally, anyone IN Christ IS the Church. And if they feel called to meet, for all the reasons that have been laid out in this thread, then I'm not sure you can do anything but accord us the same freedom. Not without invalidating your own.

Never said you couldnt do as you please, God gave us all free will, and He knew full well we will do as we please. Just remeber it is what you are joined to. Christ Bride His church is a spiritual, clean spotless without blemish, mens church is a harlot, if thats what you choose to be joined to that is your choice,

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

 

[Windmillcharge]

No, the purpose of the meeting together is not evangelism. I'm not saying don't let unbelievers in, but they are not the target for the worship service.

Unless your church actively prohibits non Christians from attending service then every service is an evangelistic opportunity, that may not be its primary purpose, but that aspect has to be covered.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But the Judgment Seat you mentioned is the rewards arena, where we receive rewards or loss of rewards according to His Judgment.

It's not completely clear to me, but it appears there are 2 judgements, one in the first resurrection, in which we, the church, (judgement begins with us)are judged according to what we did in the body. There seems to me to be the possibilities of, 1. Good and faithful servant, 2. Saved, but as if through fire and, 3. Cast into outer darkness.

Then there is another judgement in which there is a second resurrection of all men who ever lived and it appears to me this is based on if your name is written in a book or not written in a book.

 

[reformed1689]

Unless your church actively prohibits non Christians from attending service then every service is an evangelistic opportunity, that may not be its primary purpose, but that aspect has to be covered.

I did not say there was not the opportunity, I said that is not the purpose.

 

[bbyrd009]

Now, come on a bit...this is just stretching it a little, don't you think? It's a rather natural progression to call a building that the Church Body uses to gather in 'church', rather than "that building that we purchased with sole intent to gather together on a weekly or bi-weekly basis to worship God and grow together as a family and knowledge in our Lord". It's just a bit long, don't you think? Calling it 'church' implies that is where we go to do all the things we do corporately as Christ's body. And I think if a person is just going to get knit-picky about the particular phrase being used...well...it's IS just a bit knit-picky. Especially since most Christians can tell you that the building itself does NOT make the Church. It is and always has been the people.

i agree it is rather a natural prog, yes, and wadr if i laid it out for us, how we got there, you might agree that i havent gone far enough. But i dont mean to imply that there aren't a few good souls in congregations too, of course! Even Christian ones, sure.

for whatever reason Codependency comes to mind again here, ppl are often very helpful and "loving" as a way to feel superior or needed, and it is understood that developed countries generate codependence?

so fwiw dont get me wrong, you have some good points there, but i also doubt that most Christians could point to Church correctly. Nothing wrong with that though imo, thats what church is for!
a like a negative example maybe, if you will

I wonder how much of this is because people go to Church expecting to be: entertained, looked after, supported, fed...what-have-you....rather than going with the hopes of doing all that for others.
I think too often people miss the fact that as 'members of Christ' we aren't encouraged to attend Church 'cause we've got to, or because it helps us grow in our knowledge and wisdom of God (although those are helpful benefits we ought to also get)...its about family. As Christians we have been adopted into the family of God. No relationship can flourish without time being spent together, loving and serving one another. And yes, that includes the annoying Aunts and Uncles we just can't figure out and want to avoid.
So all these other things that people argue over; entertainment, teaching, outreach, evangelism...these are all good things, but they tend to overflow from a healthy Church that has a firm grasp of where they are in God's plan for them; family and unity. And as a general rule, people like those things, especially when they're in line with how God made them to be.

i pretty much like this down to the last line, which is imo ppl kidding themselves, mostly. As a general rule ppl like those things bc they justify their behavior and desires, maybe. At least much more often imo

i mean lets not forget there is no "When we all get to heaven?"
look around your "congregation," or any congregation; according to the Sinai census, how many of your cong will experience the kingdom? Likely not even a single one, right

 

[bbyrd009]

I see what you meant.

I think it is fair to say it does not cease to be a church (a "place" of worship) when it is locked up and no one is in it. So YES church (a building) is a "place" where we worship Him just like heaven is a place where we worship Him. And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen." Before the throne..... day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME'.

So if we don't call it a church what should we call it?

well, i dont see anything wrong with "congregation" but i dont expect you to adhere to my beliefs, mary, and i still use the term "church" myself. imo the preceeding discussion should also maybe just be had every now and then, something like that.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You have not dealt with Hebrews 10:25. If you knew the context of that verse you would know it is talking about going into the House of God. So again, deal with Hebrews 10:25. Stop trying to distract.

You have to balance two things. There is, don't forsake the gathering together, but there is also, come out of her My people and do not share in her sins.

 

[bbyrd009]

and btw yall pls consider donating to non-tax-deductible charity, local ones, where your money all goes back into your economy and actually helps lives, rather than some national or even international corp, Komen or whatever bag of thieves

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Scripture is not God nor Christ? Is it not his words? Did not God give his will in the scripture?

What are you going by then? Are the scripture you give from Christ?

If Jesus and God said those things, should I believe them?

Balance there is to also consider: you say you believe, good for you, so do the devils.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And God gave us His word that can be plainly understood.

It cannot be plainly understood without the Spirit. If it could be, the men who had devoted their entire lives to studying it would not have been told they did not understand scripture.

 

[prism]

It's not completely clear to me, but it appears there are 2 judgements, one in the first resurrection, in which we, the church, (judgement begins with us)are judged according to what we did in the body. There seems to me to be the possibilities of, 1. Good and faithful servant, 2. Saved, but as if through fire and, 3. Cast into outer darkness.

Then there is another judgement in which there is a second resurrection of all men who ever lived and it appears to me this is based on if your name is written in a book or not written in a book.

I would agree if you scratched #3. That parable talks about servants, not sons.

 

[Helen]

I wonder how much of this is because people go to Church expecting to be: entertained, looked after, supported, fed...what-have-you....rather than going with the hopes of doing all that for others.
I think too often people miss the fact that as 'members of Christ' we aren't encouraged to attend Church 'cause we've got to, or because it helps us grow in our knowledge and wisdom of God (although those are helpful benefits we ought to also get)...its about family. As Christians we have been adopted into the family of God. No relationship can flourish without time being spent together, loving and serving one another. And yes, that includes the annoying Aunts and Uncles we just can't figure out and want to avoid.
So all these other things that people argue over; entertainment, teaching, outreach, evangelism...these are all good things, but they tend to overflow from a healthy Church that has a firm grasp of where they are in God's plan for them; family and unity. And as a general rule, people like those things, especially when they're in line with how God made them to be.

So I am in the thread after all , I had forgotten it.

I am a bone to bone person ...if you understand .
To me even today it seems that tripping work.

In my 55 saved years I have attended meeting or gatherings of christians , in some place I was just there because I was there.
And praise God, at other times I was there because i BELONGED , I was 'a part of' I was a fully functioning member in a live local body.

We have the vision in Ez of the dry bones...and how did they come alive?
When GOD breathed into them and spoke ...bone was joined to bone.
Just trotting along to a local "church' does not a local Body make.
If the leadership have no idea how to minister Body-life to a congregation it can just stay a glob of christians together , with no more cohesion than sitting in a movie theatre.
A leader who knows how to nurture, and with discernment in recognizing the callings and gifting of his flock and so encourages them in this..will grow a healthy vibrant local body.

It is the Holy Spirit who joins bone to bone and builds the group.

Control and fear by the leadership is what stifles growth and stifles the people...that is not a healthy functioning Body.

This makes godly sense to me...not sure it will to you?

 

[Waiting on him]

So I am in the thread after all , I had forgotten it.

I am a bone to bone person ...if you understand .
To me even today it seems that tripping work.

In my 55 saved years I have attended meeting or gatherings of christians , in some place I was just there because I was there.
And praise God, at other times I was there because i BELONGED , I was 'a part of' I was a fully functioning member in a live local body.

We have the vision in Ez of the dry bones...and how did they come alive?
When GOD breathed into them and spoke ...bone was joined to bone.
Just trotting along to a local "church' does not a local Body make.
If the leadership have no idea how to minister Body-life to a congregation it can just stay a glob of christians together , with no more cohesion than sitting in a movie theatre.
A leader who knows how to nurture, and with discernment in recognizing the callings and gifting of his flock and so encourages them in this..will grow a healthy vibrant local body.

It is the Holy Spirit who joins bone to bone and builds the group.

Control and fear by the leadership is what stifles growth and stifles the people...that is not a healthy functioning Body.

This makes godly sense to me...not sure it will to you?

Makes perfect biblical sense, but finding it is about as rare as hens teeth.