Do you believe that Jesus doing everything he had done?
- Thread starter MatthewG
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In other words, is salvation by faith alone in the finished work of Christ?
I was taught that if something in particular doesn't fit in total harmony in Scripture, then find out why it doesn't fit.
How can one say that salvation is by faith alone, when James is the only author who uses the exact words "faith only" by the phrase, "you see then that how by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?"
On the other hand, Paul says "you are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast."
A better question, I think, is why would God allow this to happen, knowing it would bring controversy, arguments, and divide the Church. This question of "faith alone" is the main reason for the Reformation. Martin Luther nailed on the Church door in Wittenberg, Germany, his 95 thesis that read, "the just shall live by faith."
I'm with Calvin, who suggested that only a fool would question the foreknowledge of the Almighty God! In God's foreknowledge He allowed these things to happen for a reason. Both sides have their arguments, the fact is evident, someone is wrong! But it's for sure the apostles are not wrong, our perception of interpretation is wrong on one side or the other.
I've had this conversation several times in private conversation, but on this public broadcasting system we call the boards, it's not easily discussed. Rules will be broken, further division will be created, and I don't feel that I'm at liberty to discuss it in this setting.
But I will ask you a question for you to think about, MatthewG.
According to Biblical standards of the righteous men found in Scripture, what is the nature of a man who would dare place 100% of his faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and nothing else, without question? How would you describe that person in his nature vs the man who would add to that finished work for his salvation?
It's simply a matter of has Jesus Christ done enough by his death, burial and resurrection, for you (even the world), to believe and have faith in him, and be able to get to Heaven?
You mention James, yes Faith and Love are a given.
So for a person who believes on the Lord, loves God, and loves others.
Do you believe everything that Jesus hs done is good enough to get you into heaven?
You mention James, yes Faith and Love are a given.
So for a person who believes on the Lord, loves God, and loves others.
Do you believe everything that Jesus hs done is good enough to get you into heaven?
Behold
Well-Known Member
Only God can get us into heaven.
The Devil's lie , his gospel, is that Jesus isn't enough, so, you need to chase commandments, works, water.
However, Salvation is not what WE DO....its what God provided for us, On The CROSS= so that by HIS PROVISION< HE can accept us.
And what has to happen so that God can accept you?
You SIN has to be dealt with, as its YOUR SIN, that is keeping you and God apart., and THEN, God has to deal with your dead spirit.
So What does God offer so that your SIN can be forgiven.......so that......God can then fellowship with you by giving you the new Birth.>?
A.) Christ on the Cross. deals with all your sin
B.) God causes your spirit to be BORN AGAIN and now you exist as a "new creation" in Christ".
Reader, have you noticed that heretics change all this, by trying to add to it, water......commandments,......works........self effort?
Listen......think.
If You can earn heaven by Commandment keeping, doing works, getting in the water, or by any type of self effort, then Why did JESUS HAVE TO DIE FOR YOU ?
See what i just showed you?
I just "preached", "the simplicity that is in Christ".
I just "preached", "The Cross", ....
""For the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.""
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;"""
Did you just read, "to the GREEKS" this preaching is "foolishness"?
Who is that?
That is every person, non-jew, who tells you....."well you have to keep commandments, and do works, and get in the water, and try to be like Christ"..... etc, etc, ect works, works, works.
Why do they preach another Gospel?
Because the CROSS is not known to them, so how can they PREACH, what they do not KNOW, and do not ACCEPT, and do not BELIEVE. !
You have to HEAR (discern) these deceivers, or they will have you in a cult, chasing Calvin, and worrying that you can lose your salvation.
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I'm the one who believes if your faith is ground in nothing but the finished work of Christ for your salvation, all these other things will be added unto you.
Not just food and clothing, but love for your neighbor, the incentive to do what is right in the eyes of God, the total package of what God wants from man!
MatthewG, when the person who has mixed faith in Christ and whatever they have added to Christ for their salvation goes to the Lord and asks for something, as we are told to do in Scripture, Christ may say, go ask your water baptism for help, or your church membership, or your Sabbath keeping.
God is a jealous God, you will have no other Gods before me! When man places anything equal with Christ for their salvation, thereby making that thing a requirement, you have created another God.
God is a jealous God, you will have no other Gods before me! When man places anything equal with Christ for their salvation, thereby making that thing a requirement, you have created another God.
Perhaps @MatthewG. While it is probably enough to get someone into heaven it may not keep them there.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Revelation 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yep! Jesus paid the price for my sin! All I need do is receive the payment- nothing else. That is why Jesus said "tetelestai" For my sin debt was paid in full.
People do not go to hell because they are sinners, they go to hell, beause they rejected what jesus did on the cross for them- so then they must pay for their sins on their own.
Behold
Well-Known Member
They are already there..
Here is the thing about Christianity.
The born again person has been recreated as a "New Creation" "In Christ.. "One with God".
So, they are already in Heaven, Spiritually, and will remain there only for as long as God lives.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Good response!
First the issue: The passages from James and Paul are indeed both correct...but simply not aligned to address the issue in the same way. Paul simply cuts straight to the actual source of all that salvation must be attributed to--being Christ alone, and faith in what He has done. While James simply points out that such a great act of God in a person produces fruit--just as Christ himself said it would.
Which is a sad testimony against the state of the Church, that I could answer in two sentences, what the Church has struggled with for two millennia.
As for your question: "A man who would dare place 100% of his faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and nothing else, without question"...has been "converted and become as little children" just as Christ said one must do. Matthew 18:3
Jesus said
Matthew 7:21
King James Version
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Believing isn't enough if it doesn't cause us to do God's will.
This is starting to sound like a debate. So I'll weigh in a little.
We are taught that Jesus saves. And that faith without works is dead. And in the sheep and goats we learn without works people die. So it would appear that when the entire bible is accepted we find that Jesus requires works from us or he won't save us. I can quote scripture if anyone would like.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
That, by no means reconciles the scriptures.
In other words, even someone who comes to faith and belief in Christ on their death bed, can and is saved without works. Works, then, simply refers to what the seed of faith ought to produce [if] given the time for it to grow.
It is that simple.
Absolutely yes. Nothing else would come near good enough. Only the blood shed by the Lamb of God can save us. In Egypt it was the blood of lambs painted on the doorposts that saved the Israelites from death and destruction and since the time of Jesus it is only His blood which can save us from death and destruction now.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
And what of those who come to faith and belief in Christ on their death bed, having no more life in them to do any good works as a result?
Well, the man on the cross next to Jesus is a good example of being saved at the end of life.
Do you think it would be the same for those who all their life had ignored Jesus.
The bible is full of warning about people that don't do the will of the Father. And for that of sinners and how Jesus will deny them their salvation. It's clear that faith without works is dead.
James 2:14-17
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
And what did Jesus himself say of the people who would deny the less fortunate as James points out?
Matthew 25:35-41
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
The bible and Jesus and James made it clear that faith alone will not save a person.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The Bible does not "bring arguments".
But rather, Its the inability of a religious person to rightly divide the word of God, that causes the STRIFE.
or,
its a badly instructed believer, who has been fed "doctrines of devils" and has become their theology, that causes the STRIFE.
"Strife" is devil led confusion regarding bible verses or bible doctrine.
Now, to answer your question...
Its very simple, once you see it.... Charlie24.
Let me show it to you , the answer, from Acts 10....
First, you recall that Peter, in Acts 2, led 3000 into the body of Christ.
He spoke with the Gift of Tongues, to Jews, during Pentecost, as "jews require a sign", and "tongues are FOR a SIGN.."
1 Corinthians 1:22.......1 Corinthians 14:22
So, Peter has the apostolic Jewish "SIGN(s) of an Jewish Apostle"....
2 Corinthians 12:12
However, what He didn't have until Acts 15, was the revelation of Paul's ""Gospel of the Grace of God."""
Peter began to understand it, somewhat, 10 yrs after the Crucifixion, when God gave Peter a vision, in Acts 10, and explained to Peter that GENTILES could be saved.......as Peter had no idea even as late as Acts 10, which is about a Decade after Christ has ascended back into Heaven.
So, Peter was preaching the " water baptism of John", as that is what religious Jews preached in the OLD TESTAMENT.
Its all he KNEW to preach being an Old Testament JEW.
Now, i just showed you, that the same Apostle who led 3000 to Christ, didn't know during Pentecost, or even nearly 10 yrs later, that GENTILES could be saved.
So, what Peter didn't KNOW, .. He can't Preach or Teach.
Understand?
So, here is a key to understanding some verses ....
Its this......"not all the Apostles had the same KNOWLEDGE or REVELATION at the SAME TIME".
So, when an apostle does not PREACH = Paul's Gospel, of "faith is counted as righteousness", and "Justification by faith, without WORKs".. and '"Abraham is the father of our FAITH".......then that apostle has Peter's issue, that Peter had in Act's 10.
He does not know all the revelation yet., regarding PAUL's GOSPEL being THE Gospel.
And this is why the Apostles met in Acts 15.
It was a meeting that allowed them all to "catch up" and get Paul's Revelation.
Reader,
There are no contradictions in the Bible.
What you find is that the bible is a historical document of the TIME its talking about, and regarding each Apostle, at that TIME, is talking about them, and showing you what they KNEW at that time.
What they dont KNOW yet, they can't preach or teach, yet.
The Bible is completely HONEST...>IT does not try to create false similitude, when there isn't any.
This is why the Gospel's dont have the same STORY< exactly..... as its 4 people giving THEIR Eyewitness of Christ and His ministry.
Each has a few different observations, a few different points of view, as that is the BIBLE being HONEST, as 4 people watching the same eye-witnessed event will have the same BASIC Truth, but each will have a unique point of view, regarding their observation of the exact same EVENT.
The Bible is TRUE.
Trust it.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
My question was rhetorical.
Yes, it is the same with the thief on the cross.
As for "those who all their life had ignored Jesus", I will go one further to say, that if one who lived and died in a remote part of the world had never even heard of Jesus, but looked up to the heavens at any time with hope in their heart of that something more they had never known--they will be saved. Such is faith.
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