Do You Have To Be Sinless?

[aspen]

Do you have to be sinless to be a Christian? A heretical group called the Cathars or the Albigensian believed so. They had a church structure that is reflected in the Jehovah's Witnesses today - two classes of Christians - similar to the publishers and the pioneers in the JW church (but they share few other similarities). The Cathars believed, like gnostics that human flesh is evil and spirit is good - so they were also dualistic. Since they believed that they had to be sinless to be truly Christian, they postponed baptism until their deathbed. Christians have been fighting against gnosticism since very early on in the history of the church.

One of the biggest problems with gnosticism and Quietism and the mind sciences is that they renounce the world - Jesus was very into helping the poor and needy - not running away from them, as if they were some kind of dream we have to endure until God releases us from the prisons of our bodies. We are called to be in the world, but not of it.

I share the Catholic belief that Paul was referring to hedonism when he condemned the flesh, not the literal body, What do you think?

 

[JarBreaker]

"they postponed baptism until their deathbed"


what a gamble!


wait, is gambling a sin ?

 

[Nomad]

Do you have to be sinless to be a Christian?

Hi Aspen,

Sinless perfection is an impossibility in this life. The Apostle John says:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

When John says 'have no sin' the verb 'have' is in the present tense. The present tense in Greek indicates continuous or repeated action. In other words, our battle with sin is continuous or ongoing. John goes on to point out the remedy in verse 9 where the verb 'confess' is also in the present tense indicating continuous action.

I share the Catholic belief that Paul was referring to hedonism when he condemned the flesh, not the literal body, What do you think?

Did you have a particular passage in mind? 'Flesh' has a variety of uses in the Bible. Paul sometimes uses 'flesh' in the sense of the carnal or fallen nature.

 

[Foreigner]

Again, cutting and pasting multiple scriptures that do nothing to support your position is comical more than helpful.

Why not try this one:

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." - Rom 3:22-24


-- NO ONE is sinless. Jesus is the only person who ever walked the earth sinless. Christ's blood paid the price for the sins we have committed and the sins ALL MEN will commit as long as we are sorry and seek forgiveness. God's grace alone makes us worthy to be called His children.

If we could be sinless there would be no need for His grace.

 

[aspen]

Hi Aspen,

Sinless perfection is an impossibility in this life. The Apostle John says:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

When John says 'have no sin' the verb 'have' is in the present tense. The present tense in Greek indicates continuous or repeated action. In other words, our battle with sin is continuous or ongoing. John goes on to point out the remedy in verse 9 where the verb 'confess' is also in the present tense indicating continuous action.




Did you have a particular passage in mind? 'Flesh' has a variety of uses in the Bible. Paul sometimes uses 'flesh' in the sense of the carnal or fallen nature.

I really like your post - the verses are well researched. I also agree that Paul means several things when he uses the word flesh. I should have used a different word than hedonistic - perhaps worldly would have been better?

 

[jiggyfly]

If you notice the last verse above, you will see that only the Word can make us sinless and become a saint. Then we never sin again.

For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross. This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. Colossians 1:19-22

 

[jiggyfly]

Only Jesus, the prophets and us saints are chosen by God to be conformed to the image of Christ, which is the Word.

Ephesians 1:

3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

6: to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

　

Romans 9:

28: We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.

29: For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

30: And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

　

II Thesalonians 2:

13: But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

14: To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

　

John 15

16: You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

I agree with the scriptures you posted but none of them declare you doing anything to be sinless, if we are righteous it is because of the cross of Christ and that alone.

 

[jiggyfly]

These following scriptures and my teaching in red letters will show you the process of becoming sinless saints who will never sin again.


1 John 1:

7: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is the one scripture in the Bible that shows a tiny bit about how to become sinless. The Romans deleted everything else from these scriptures that shows the true process of becoming a sinless saint.

When a chosen one of God's, who is still a sinner, hears the voice of truth in the gospel preached by a sinless saint, then he will keep listening until God reveals himself. Jesus preached to his disciples for a long time before God revealed himself to Peter so you can gauge the time it takes with Peter getting faith from God. At that point, Jesus knew that he had to die so Peter could be the next sinless man and preach the same gospel that Jesus preached.

After Jesus died, then God began his work on Peter by giving him commands to confess and repent of his sins. For each sin that was repented of, God would change his genetic trait to stop the power that caused Peter to sin. Eventually, the Word of God, or Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ, was able to forgive all his sins to make Peter a sinless saint. Then Peter received new thoughts in his mind and this is who Peter was created as in Christ. All the prophets and us saints were created in Christ, the Word but only us saints could be made sinless because we came after Jesus died. The prophets had to die as sinners without receiving the knowledge they were created with.

So this verse shows that we are made sinless if we confess our sins and justified by God in the form of repentance. Then he forgives us of all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:

3: And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4: He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

29: If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that every one who does right is born of him.

1 John 3:

6: No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him.

9: No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

1 John 5:

2: By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

18: We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Galations 5:

24: And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Romans 6:

20: When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21: But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death.
22: But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.
23: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 8

31: Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples,
32: and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33: They answered him, "We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to any one. How is it that you say, `You will be made free'?"
34: Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin.
35: The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever.
36: So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

But if your the "only one" as you claim then any instruction from you on becoming sinless is futile. You obviously are blind to your own folly.

 

[jiggyfly]

You're tricks to avoid the truth won't work with me. I'm the only one who has been sinless since the last saints were killed by the Roman government in the early fourth century but I'm not alone in this sinlessness. There are thousands of us saints and Jesus who were made sinless so we could preach the gospel and be used by God for anything he wanted of us. Our flesh is totally obedient to him once he freed us from the worldly desires.

Your confused, I am not avoiding the truth, I am exposing your erroneous paradigm.

 

[aspen]

[font="tahoma][size="2"]You're tricks to avoid the truth won't work with me. I'm the only one who has been sinless since the last saints were killed by the Roman government in the early fourth century but I'm not alone in this sinlessness. There are thousands of us saints and Jesus who were made sinless so we could preach the gospel and be used by God for anything he wanted of us. Our flesh is totally obedient to him once he freed us from the worldly desires. [/size][/font]

Thousands of saints? I thought you said you were the only sinless person for the last 1600 years.....now I am confused

 

[Duckybill]

I'm the only one who has been sinless since the last saints were killed by the Roman government in the early fourth century...

You must be quite powerful! Are you Jesus?

 

[Duckybill]

I was made sinless on June 14, 2008, and two days later I started receiving new thoughts and these thoughts are who I am in God as the Word.

John 1 says that Jesus was the Word? Are you saying that you are Jesus?

 

[Duckybill]

In your mind, you think Christians are saints but they are imposters instead.

It seems clear that several here think that YOU are an "imposter". Is everyone else here an "imposter" but you?

 

[Thankful 1]

Hi Aspen,

Sinless perfection is an impossibility in this life. The Apostle John says:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

When John says 'have no sin' the verb 'have' is in the present tense. The present tense in Greek indicates continuous or repeated action. In other words, our battle with sin is continuous or ongoing. John goes on to point out the remedy in verse 9 where the verb 'confess' is also in the present tense indicating continuous action.




Did you have a particular passage in mind? 'Flesh' has a variety of uses in the Bible. Paul sometimes uses 'flesh' in the sense of the carnal or fallen nature.

(1 John 1: 8-10)[sup] “[/sup]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”



You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.



If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?



John later says:



(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”



(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”



John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.



Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.



(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”



(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

 

[Nomad]

(1 John 1: 8-10)[sup] “[/sup]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”



You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.



If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

Verse 10 does indeed say that if we deny that we have ever sinned we make God a liar. You need to see that this is irrelevant to the OP and the point I was making. Why are you ignoring verse 8 and my explanation of the Greek present tense which clearly says that if we claim to be sinless we are deceived? You need to deal with verse 8 and show me how it doesn't mean what it says.

John later says:



(1 John 3:6) . . .anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. . .

Unfortunately, this particular verse in English lends itself to great misunderstanding. John is not saying that believers never sin. Once again we run into our friend the Greek present tense. Both instances of the verb for 'sin' are in the present tense, which once again indicates continuous action. John is saying that those who abide in Christ will not live a life style characterized by unrepentant habitual sinfulness as if they were never regenerated at all. A good modern English translation will make this clear.

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. English Standard Version

We are forgiven, but that doesn't make us sinless.

 

[bud02]

Its good to see you Nomad, I was tempted to respond to the post but I see its taken care of, with a very sharp sword no less.

 

[Thankful 1]

[/size][/font][/b]Verse 10 does indeed say that if we deny that we have ever sinned we make God a liar. You need to see that this is irrelevant to the OP and the point I was making. Why are you ignoring verse 8 and my explanation of the Greek present tense which clearly says that if we claim to be sinless we are deceived? You need to deal with verse 8 and show me how it doesn't mean what it says.




Unfortunately, this particular verse in English lends itself to great misunderstanding. John is not saying that believers never sin. Once again we run into our friend the Greek present tense. Both instances of the verb for 'sin' are in the present tense, which once again indicates continuous action. John is saying that those who abide in Christ will not live a life style characterized by unrepentant habitual sinfulness as if they were never regenerated at all. A good modern English translation will make this clear.



We are forgiven, but that doesn't make us sinless.

Why is it that you believe your translation of the bible is better then those who were chosen by the church to do the translating?



There is more then just John’s verse that says a Christian is dead to sin. Hebrews tells us that if one knows God and deliberately sins there is not repentance. Acts also give us a demonstration of what happens when one who knows God sin.



When one reads scripture can’t we agree to read it for what it says?



I believe people because they can’t understand what the Word says needed to develop tools to be able to twist the Word to mean what he or she can understand or live.

Tools to Twist Bible​

I would like to share some of the tools people use to twist the written Word of God.



The tool often used is the Greek Word.

I believe the Holy Spirit was much involved with the people that translated the Greek scripture to the English version. I also believe they understood the Greek as well or better than the people who try to make people believe the English version is not accurate.



What a con and an elitist act it is to use a study of a language to try and convince others he or she is right because they have some special knowledge of a language.



Hyperbole is also used a lot. Jesus did not mean that it is just an exaggeration. Then people will go on and tell one what he really meant. Tell me how does anyone know unless Jesus told him or her? If Jesus told them he will tell us also right?



Metaphorically Is used much the same way as hyperbole, and the people who use this tool are of course the experts who can tell one just what Jesus meant. Wow they must be really intelligent, like us simple people can’t read, and understand.



Another tool often used is that part of the written Word is not talking to us. People don’t like what a letter is saying, so then if it is not speaking to them it can be ignored. They want us to believe that the bible is like our history books.



Separating our spirit from our bodies, as if one is not part of the other. This tool is used to make our actions not accountable. Our spirit don’t sin so only the body is held accountable. What is so unbelievable is many people buy into that garbage.

 

[Nomad]

Even though some English translations are unintentionally ambiguous on this translational matter, the Greek text is extremely clear my friend. Are you going to address what I said about the Greek present tense contained in the verses in question or just ignore it and continue to insist on your error?

 

[Thankful 1]

Even though some English translations are unintentionally ambiguous on this translational matter, the Greek text is extremely clear my friend. Are you going to address what I said about the Greek present tense contained in the verses in question or just ignore it and continue to insist on your error?

Like I said people will believe what they want to believe. I read the bible the way it has been translated. If you want to read it your way, go ahead, but then don’t use the bible to back what you believe. I for one will not listen to you.



The Word does not mean anything if one can change it to mean different from what is written.



John said: (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”



So to me John is saying that one who sins is of Satan. How then can a person who is of Satan teach one about God?

 

[Nomad]

I haven't changed the meaning of any word. I merely point out that not all translations are as clear as they could be. If you can't explain to me why my explanation of the Greek present tense is in error, then your charge is nothing more than an unsubstantiated assertion which simply is not helpful to anyone.