Does anyone want to compare Old Testament Prophecy to Revelation?

[Jay Ross]

Peter was intimately familiar with Jeremiah 31.

He recognized its fulfillment in the Church.

Not in the nation of Israel.

I am not sure that that is the case, but you are welcome to believe as you please. However, I will not be moved based on your flimsy justification about what Peter believes. It is a stretch to say the least.

 

[covenantee]

I am not sure that that is the case, but you are welcome to believe as you please. However, I will not be moved based on your flimsy justification about what Peter believes. It is a stretch to say the least.

Peter provided the justification.

I simply quoted him.

If you can disprove Peter's justification, please do.

 

[PinSeeker]

There won't be a 1,000 year millennial reign on this earth when Jesus returns as you continue to claim over and over again

As you have been shown "Numerous Times" Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

Insofar as you go, here, Truth7t7, you and I are in agreement on all of this... except for the "dissolving of this existing earth by fire" (I'll return to that in a moment). But yes, there is a millennium, for sure, and there is a millennial reign by Christ. It has been and is now a present reality... for about 2000 years in our time (God, as we know, is outside our time, always present in what we sometimes call the eternal now)... and progressing (very important) to Christ's return. For now, Christ is our King, and He's reigning in heaven, and by the Spirit, we are seated with Him even now.

Now...

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

Yeah, so here, not so much. I appreciate your quote of the Lord (in parentheses) from Revelation 21. But God says He is making all things new. He does not say, my friend, that He is "making all new things." God's plan is renewal ~ setting things back for good how He created them in the beginning ~ not replacement.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Truth7t7]

Insofar as you go, here, Truth7t7, you and I are in agreement on all of this... except for the "dissolving of this existing earth by fire" (I'll return to that in a moment). But yes, there is a millennium, for sure, and there is a millennial reign by Christ. It has been and is now a present reality... for about 2000 years in our time (God, as we know, is outside our time, always present in what we sometimes call the eternal now)... and progressing (very important) to Christ's return. For now, Christ is our King, and He's reigning in heaven, and by the Spirit, we are seated with Him even now.

Now...


Yeah, so here, not so much. I appreciate your quote of the Lord (in parentheses) from Revelation 21. But God says He is making all things new. He does not say, my friend, that He is "making all new things." God's plan is renewal ~ setting things back for good how He created them in the beginning ~ not replacement.

Grace and peace to all.

Yes we disagree

Scripture is very clear, this existing earth down to its elements shall be dissolved by the Lord's fire at his return

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Jay Ross]

Peter provided the justification.

I simply quoted him.

If you can disprove Peter's justification, please do.

What I am questioning is the context in which you are using 1 Peter 2 to justify that the Covenantal Promise of God to Israel is no longer valid, and that "Christians" have displaced Israel during God's Summer Harvest Time during the unfolding of the Seventh Age.

You have taken just one passage from 1 Peter to justify your argument without considering the whole breadth of scripture. The prophecies in the Old Testament foretold that the Israelites will become a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations. When God redeems Israel and gathers them to Himself, that He will sprinkle them with water to cleanse them so that they can assume once more the role of Priests to all of the nations of the world.

Paul also in his letters tells us that those who believe in Christ will be grafted into the Stump of Jessie thereby becoming one in the Lord with Israel.

In the New Testament it is said that Peter was an Apostle to the Jews while Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles. In I Peter 1:17-19 Peter gives the impression that he has written this Letter to his follow Israelites/Jews: -

1 Peter 1:17-19: - 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay,{ dwelling as resident aliens}, here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible/perishable things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

But this is the impression that I discern from this letter.

Shalom

 

[Truth7t7]

What I am questioning is the context in which you are using 1 Peter 2 to justify that the Covenantal Promise of God to Israel is no longer valid, and that "Christians" have displaced Israel during God's Summer Harvest Time during the unfolding of the Seventh Age.

You have taken just one passage from 1 Peter to justify your argument without considering the whole breadth of scripture. The prophecies in the Old Testament foretold that the Israelites will become a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations. When God redeems Israel and gathers them to Himself, that He will sprinkle them with water to cleanse them so that they can assume once more the role of Priests to all of the nations of the world.

Paul also in his letters tells us that those who believe in Christ will be grafted into the Stump of Jessie thereby becoming one in the Lord with Israel.

In the New Testament it is said that Peter was an Apostle to the Jews while Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles. In I Peter 1:17-19 Peter gives the impression that he has written this Letter to his follow Israelites/Jews: -

1 Peter 1:17-19: - 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay,{ dwelling as resident aliens}, here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible/perishable things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

But this is the impression that I discern from this letter.

Shalom

"The Israel Of God Is The Church"

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes we disagree

Scripture is very clear, this existing earth down to its elements shall be dissolved by the Lord's fire at his return

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Well, I do agree that Scripture ~ Peter, there ~ is very clear. But even we speak of "elements" in the context of those things being in their basic, natural, unrefined state, about things "passing away" (Paul, in 2 Corinthians 5, says of we who have been born again of the Spirit, that we are new creations, new creatures, and the old things passed away), being "dissolved," and being "melted" and "destroyed" in a context of exposing things completely for what they are, changing things completely from their previous states, and about things being completely brought under submission, defeated, and ruined. And that's Peter's context in that part of his second epistle.

Also, the King James Versions, while not "poor translations," can be troublesome here and there because of the antiquated language used... even the New King James. My preferred versions are (1) the English Standard Version (ESV), (2a) the New American Standard Bible (NASB), and (2b) the New International Version (NIV), and the better English translation for our more modern ears is "the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed" (ESV). I like the NASB there, too: "the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!"

Peter does in fact write, in that very passage ~ verse 6 ~ liken it to what happened in the days of Noah: "the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water." But the world did not cease to exist, nor was it replaced. His context does not change from verse 6 to verse 7 and beyond. And I'll point out again that God says He is making all things new (not "making all new things").

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Jay Ross]

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

So, what is the time frame for God taking the Kingdom of God from Israel? Does God have any plans to restore Israel to the Kingdom of God so that Israel can be a part of it?

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

As I said above, Peter was writing to the "Christian" Jews in His letters so making reference to Jer 31:31ff is not out of order or removing the Jews from God's purposes during the time of the Summer harvest of Souls during the Seventh Age.

 

[covenantee]

You have taken just one passage from 1 Peter to justify your argument without considering the whole breadth of scripture. The prophecies in the Old Testament foretold that the Israelites will become a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations. When God redeems Israel and gathers them to Himself, that He will sprinkle them with water to cleanse them so that they can assume once more the role of Priests to all of the nations of the world.

Are there Old Testament prophecies which are fulfilled in the New Testament?

 

[Jay Ross]

Are there Old Testament prophecies which are fulfilled in the New Testament?

Yes, there are.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, I do agree that Scripture ~ Peter, there ~ is very clear. But even we speak of "elements" in the context of those things being in their basic, natural, unrefined state, about things "passing away" (Paul, in 2 Corinthians 5, says of we who have been born again of the Spirit, that we are new creations, new creatures, and the old things passed away), being "dissolved," and being "melted" and "destroyed" in a context of exposing things completely for what they are, changing things completely from their previous states, and about things being completely brought under submission, defeated, and ruined. And that's Peter's context in that part of his second epistle.

Also, the King James Versions, while not "poor translations," can be troublesome here and there because of the antiquated language used... even the New King James. My preferred versions are (1) the English Standard Version (ESV), (2a) the New American Standard Bible (NASB), and (2b) the New International Version (NIV), and the better English translation for our more modern ears is "the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed" (ESV). I like the NASB there, too: "the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!"

Peter does in fact write, in that very passage ~ verse 6 ~ liken it to what happened in the days of Noah: "the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water." But the world did not cease to exist, nor was it replaced. His context does not change from verse 6 to verse 7 and beyond. And I'll point out again that God says He is making all things new (not "making all new things").

Grace and peace to you!

I Disagree with your "Symbolic" representations

It will be "Literal" dirt, rocks, trees, etc on this earth, down to their "Literal" elements that are "Literally" dissolved

 

[Truth7t7]

So, what is the time frame for God taking the Kingdom of God from Israel? Does God have any plans to restore Israel to the Kingdom of God so that Israel can be a part of it?



As I said above, Peter was writing to the "Christian" Jews in His letters so making reference to Jer 31:31ff is not out of order or removing the Jews from God's purposes during the time of the Summer harvest of Souls during the Seventh Age.

God has no plan for a future "National" Israel, Jesus removed the need for Israel's sacrificial atonement in his death on the cross of Calvary

There is one covenant between God and men, the blood of Calvary "Period"!

There will be a future remnant Jew who has been chosen through God's foreknowledge and they will be saved and added to the Church upon earth, just as all saved believers have

 

[Truth7t7]

What I am questioning is the context in which you are using 1 Peter 2 to justify that the Covenantal Promise of God to Israel is no longer valid, and that "Christians" have displaced Israel during God's Summer Harvest Time during the unfolding of the Seventh Age.

You have taken just one passage from 1 Peter to justify your argument without considering the whole breadth of scripture. The prophecies in the Old Testament foretold that the Israelites will become a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations. When God redeems Israel and gathers them to Himself, that He will sprinkle them with water to cleanse them so that they can assume once more the role of Priests to all of the nations of the world.

Paul also in his letters tells us that those who believe in Christ will be grafted into the Stump of Jessie thereby becoming one in the Lord with Israel.

In the New Testament it is said that Peter was an Apostle to the Jews while Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles. In I Peter 1:17-19 Peter gives the impression that he has written this Letter to his follow Israelites/Jews: -

1 Peter 1:17-19: - 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay,{ dwelling as resident aliens}, here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible/perishable things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

But this is the impression that I discern from this letter.

Shalom

Jay I see your problem as being found in Christian Zionism, you try to draw a distinction of two different ethnic people of God, this is a false teaching

There is one covenant between God and men the shed blood upon Calvary, there is neither Jew nor Greek in the Church, God has no respect for person

Jay you desire to maintain a people of God based upon race and ethnic heritage, your Zionist teaching is found no place in scripture

 

[covenantee]

Yes, there are.

Exodus 19
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


So in 1 Peter 2:9, when Peter refers directly to Exodus 19:6 and applies it directly to the Church,

Is that not fulfillment?

 

[ewq1938]

Yes we disagree

Scripture is very clear, this existing earth down to its elements shall be dissolved by the Lord's fire at his return

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

That is a different day of the Lord. It is not the return. Not one second coming passage has any of those events happening because they don't occur at the Coming.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is a different day of the Lord. It is not the return. Not one second coming passage has any of those events happening because they don't occur at the Coming.

Oh sure, it's a different day of the Lord, your false claim is "Silent"

 

[ewq1938]

Oh sure, it's a different day of the Lord

Your theory of there being only one day of the Lord is ridiculous.

Eze 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
Eze 13:6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

Here is a completely different "day of the Lord" not associated with the second coming or the day the Lord casts sinners in the LOF.

There are MANY days of the Lord. A day of the Lord is a day when God does something important. There are many of them.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The context here is clearly not the second coming but the day of the GWTJ. This is the day Peter was describing:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[Reddsta]

So, what is the time frame for God taking the Kingdom of God from Israel? Does God have any plans to restore Israel to the Kingdom of God so that Israel can be a part of it?

Greetings...

It's been a while...but T7T7 do agree on this...

Just passing by...Jay...it might be advisable to consider 70 AD for the utter consummation of God taking His kingdom from Israel...it really leaves no question...He left "their house" to them..."desolate"...just as He told them 30+ years earlier.

For the second question...the first part...not a "natural" Israel...for the second part...sure as the Body of Christ.

Redd...

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay I see your problem as being found in Christian Zionism, you try to draw a distinction of two different ethnic people of God, this is a false teaching

There is one covenant between God and men the shed blood upon Calvary, there is neither Jew nor Greek in the Church, God has no respect for person

Jay you desire to maintain a people of God based upon race and ethnic heritage, your Zionist teaching is found no place in scripture

If all you can do is claim that I am a Christian Zionist then you are sadly mistaken.

Why does God tell us through the Prophet Ezekiel that He will gather Israel to Himself and plant them in His fertile field and teach them the Basis required of them in their worship where they are living scattered throughout the whole earth where they will be living and that he will be giving them peace from the beasts of the field. God also tells us that the Gentiles will tug at the sleeves of the Israelites and ask them to show them the way to Mt Zion. This is taken from scripture and yet you deny it is true and claim that God has taken Israel out of His plan for the Summer Harvest Season.

Why is it that you have such a hatred for the Israelite's repenting and returning to their Father God? Even Jesus is recorded in the Book of Luke prophesying that this would be so. However, He did give warning that if the salt loses it saltiness that it would be of no use to God and would be discarded upon the dung heap.

I know that we have not reached that point yet in the story of the Israelite people group, but it seems to me that you have already discarded the Israelites to the Dung Heap before God has made that particular decision.

Perhaps, in your zeal to read your plain "literal" understanding into the scriptures, you are missing God's actual prophetic words concerning Israel.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

Greetings...

It's been a while...but T7T7 do agree on this...

Just passing by...Jay...it might be advisable to consider 70 AD for the utter consummation of God taking His kingdom from Israel...it really leaves no question...He left "their house" to them..."desolate"...just as He told them 30+ years earlier.

For the second question...the first part...not a "natural" Israel...for the second part...sure as the Body of Christ.

Redd...

It's been a while . . . ????????? To cryptic to be clear as to what you mean.

As for your claim to consider 70 AD, God did not take His Kingdom from them, but rather allowed the iniquities of the fathers from the first and second ages of the existence of Abraham's descendants to be visited upon their children and the children's children during the third and the fourth Ages of the existence of Abraham's descendants. This visitation of the father's iniquities during the third and fourth Age has not run its full course to completion yet, that is still some 20 or so years off yet.

Jesus did say that the Israelites, after Satan is Judged and goes off for a time, will send a delegation off after his leaving, telling the "God" that they no longer want Satan to be King over them. Jesus also tells us that when the Kings of the earth are being judged in sight of Jerusalem, that they will consider their circumstances and realise that they do not have the ability to overcome the Army that is judging the Kings of the earth at Armageddon and well seek out the terms of peace that the King, i.e. Jesus, of this more powerful army than theirs, would impose upon them.

Now I have no wish to have a contrary view on what Jesus was foretelling about Israel during His first advent, however, there are some on this forum that do hold to a very different understand to what Christ did express.

OH! and OT prophecy also backs up this understanding of mine as well. How God will use Israel during the Summer Harvest period of mankind's history is not for me to determine as some in this thread have already done.

Shalom