Does the Kingdom of God being at hand mean it will come or that it has come?

[Karl Peters]

Mark 1: 14,15 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

It seems to me that at church the above is too often interpreted that someday the kingdom of God will come, or that the church is the kingdom of God.

Now that thinking does not make any sense to me, especially because not only to I believe that it is the Lord Himself, even the King of Kings, talks to me everyday. I hear Him, or at least Him who I believe is Him, because of what He tells me and does around me. And one of the things He does is send His angels to minister to me and watch over me. So it is I hear from the Kingdom of God, Of course His Spirit and His angels are not the only spirits around, never-the-less I pray the Lord's prayer each morning and so I request, "Thy Kingdom come", and that seems to happen everyday that I do pray for it to happen.

This is to say that in the morning I wake up and start talking to my Lord. And shortly afterwards I wind up in my favorite chair and pray the Lord prayer, with a few other things, and so I ask for "Thy Kingdom come", and while I will talk back and forth with the Lord about a dozen times a day, I will also wind up working with and talking with angels that He sends. It is not that I don't have to also battle with the dark spiritual forces of this world, but rather that I have help in those battles. The things is: I can hear with my spiritual ears and have come to understand that there is a spiritual realm around us, and that has meant that the Kingdom of God is at hand. It turns out also that there are more with us than against us, just like it is written.

Yet most of the time if I talk about it, even at church or on this forum, it seems like I am dealing with people who don't have a clue about this!!

So I think it needs to be discussed, right here on this forum with people who claim to be Christians following the King of Kings and Lord or Lords!

Do you or do you not see angels descending and ascending on Him everyday?

So is the Kingdom of heaven at hand now, that we have access to it now - or do you think that it is something that will come to earth later, and why do you think that?

 

[JohnDB]

Which do you mean precisely?

There is a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God.

Do you know the difference?
Can you define the difference?

Do you understand the subtle differences?

If you can successfully do that I can answer your question.

 

[Karl Peters]

Which do you mean precisely?

There is a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God.

Do you know the difference?
Can you define the difference?

Do you understand the subtle differences?

If you can successfully do that I can answer your question.

Interesting thought.

So a Kingdom, by definition, has a King.

So then who do you say is these two Kings are?

And since Jesus told Pilate that His Kingdom is not of this world, what does that mean to you?

And since we see that the One whose robe is dipped in blood is called the Word of God and He is the KING OF KINGS, how does that figure into your thinking?

 

[JohnDB]

Interesting thought.

So a Kingdom, by definition, has a King.

So then who do you say is these two Kings are?

And since Jesus told Pilate that His Kingdom is not of this world, what does that mean to you?

And since we see that the One whose robe is dipped in blood is called the Word of God and He is the KING OF KINGS, how does that figure into your thinking?

Eloh.....singular
Elohim...plural.
Hear oh Israel the Lord God is one.

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven both have the same King...but they are not the same thing.

When someone in another country says "The Americans are coming/have arrived!" What exactly does that mean?

Jesus according to John 1 as the Würd become flesh.

 

[quietthinker]

Does the Kingdom of God being at hand mean it will come or that it has come?​

The Kingdom of God has broken into this world in the person of Jesus and in the hearts of those who follow him.
Presently the struggle continues among Earths inhabitants as to who to pay allegiance to but a time is coming not far off when the Kingdom of Men and all it's misery will implode.

 

[Karl Peters]

Eloh.....singular
Elohim...plural.
Hear oh Israel the Lord God is one.

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven both have the same King...but they are not the same thing.

When someone in another country says "The Americans are coming/have arrived!" What exactly does that mean?

Jesus according to John 1 as the Würd become flesh.

Humm??

We know that the Father are One, because Jesus states plainly that is so:

Jn 17:11 “I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

And we know that Jesus is the anointed One put on the throne:

Ps 2:2 The kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

Ps 2:6 But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”

And we know that for sure it is the One we call Jesus Christ and who also goes by the name "Word of God" and is known as the Son of God, who is the KING OF KINGS

Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

And we know He is, The Word of God, also rules the armies of heaven!

Rev 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

And the He, as the Word of God, is God:

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

And we know that He told Pilate that His Kingdom was not of this world:

Jn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

So here is the issue that I have with saying there are 2 Kingdoms, the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God:

Jesus is the King and He says He said, "My kingdom", not "My kingdoms". God the Father, Son, and Spirit may indeed be One God, but I don't see where there are 2 thrones!!

I only see where there is one throne of God, and since Jesus Christ is both with God and is God, and as the anointed placed on the throne which is on the Holy Mountain of God, and seeing how Jesus leads both the armies of heaven, then the only conclusion that matches all those facts is that there is One King, on One throne, who is God and who rules over the armies of heaven. Therefore the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven are the same Kingdom only described at times as the Kingdom of God, which is correct, and the Kingdom of Heaven, which is also correct.

Now as for when someone says the Americans have arrived, that does not mean the USA (note how it is said the American and then the USA which we considered both to mean the same even though Americans could mean even the South Americans, right) apply to two separate countries, or kingdoms if we had a king instead of a president!

So I cannot conclude with your logic! I believe a writer might write 'The Kingdom of God', if that writer wants to place the focus on the God the King, and the same writer might write 'The Kingdom of Heven' if that writer wanted to place the focus on the Kingdom which is rules over. So they are the same thing just stared in different ways to bring the focus to either God or the Kingdom He rules over. Kind of like us saying the "Americans have arrived", to focus on the army of the USA, as opposed to saying 'the President of the USA' has arrived.

It is semantics! Do I want to focus on the army of angels that serve the King, or do I want to focus on the King who is God - so it is that I would write, "The Kingdom of Heaven", or "The Kingdom of God" - depending on my purpose.

So when John the Batist said, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” John meant that the armies of heaven and the beings that serve the King were present, but remember that Jesus Christ was in the flesh at that time had not walk up to John yet.

Yet when we read, "“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." (Mat 12:28) the focus was on the King and His Holy Spirit which had Himself come upon them to cast out demons.

So if we do not have a correct understanding, we fail to realize the meaning in the verses that we read!

 

[MatthewG]

That is an interesting view, and I do not see anything wrong with it. That would make a great deal of sense, that there is the beyond the natural to consider, and when one chooses faith in God, they become adopted into the Kingdom of the Son, Heavenly Jerusalem. The Kingdom of God is hand, near to the soul. You also have the King Jesus, was going to become the King of this kingdom who was right at their own hand, which the people of Israel decided to kill him. There was a great penalty for that decision.

 

[ScottA]

Mark 1: 14,15 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

It seems to me that at church the above is too often interpreted that someday the kingdom of God will come, or that the church is the kingdom of God.

Now that thinking does not make any sense to me, especially because not only to I believe that it is the Lord Himself, even the King of Kings, talks to me everyday. I hear Him, or at least Him who I believe is Him, because of what He tells me and does around me. And one of the things He does is send His angels to minister to me and watch over me. So it is I hear from the Kingdom of God, Of course His Spirit and His angels are not the only spirits around, never-the-less I pray the Lord's prayer each morning and so I request, "Thy Kingdom come", and that seems to happen everyday that I do pray for it to happen.

This is to say that in the morning I wake up and start talking to my Lord. And shortly afterwards I wind up in my favorite chair and pray the Lord prayer, with a few other things, and so I ask for "Thy Kingdom come", and while I will talk back and forth with the Lord about a dozen times a day, I will also wind up working with and talking with angels that He sends. It is not that I don't have to also battle with the dark spiritual forces of this world, but rather that I have help in those battles. The things is: I can hear with my spiritual ears and have come to understand that there is a spiritual realm around us, and that has meant that the Kingdom of God is at hand. It turns out also that there are more with us than against us, just like it is written.

Yet most of the time if I talk about it, even at church or on this forum, it seems like I am dealing with people who don't have a clue about this!!

So I think it needs to be discussed, right here on this forum with people who claim to be Christians following the King of Kings and Lord or Lords!

Do you or do you not see angels descending and ascending on Him everyday?

So is the Kingdom of heaven at hand now, that we have access to it now - or do you think that it is something that will come to earth later, and why do you think that?

KJV​

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.​

As the above passage reads, it shows the timing as neither past, present, or future, but as all of the above. "Is come" addresses Israel in that present tense, but without limiting the statement to that time (now past) alone. Which is very much like Paul's clarification of when the Lord would return, saying the dead shall rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and that we the "firstfruits" have also risen with Christ--all "in Christ", but that the dead precede us having lived and died first. But having spoken of each as two groups as a generalization, he then finished by clarifying, that no, the Lord does not return to us in groups, "but each one in his own order"--"each one" defined in the original language as each one person "individually." Which is to say, each person from the beginning of time to the end of time, is saved individually in their own time.

Likewise then, both subjects and narratives are regarding the same event of the coming of Christ for His chosen. Thus, the use of the term "is come", which accurately describes His coming as "but each one in his own order." Which is to be understood as an explanation only eluding to the whole truth of the matter at that time for the prolonging of times "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." On purpose.

 

[JohnDB]

The Kingdom of God is a reference to God's Sovereignty. (God is over all and above all and created ALL)

"Kingdom of Heaven" is a more locational reference than anything else....if location was actually....well that's a completely different discussion that most people can't fathom.

But that's the actual difference between the two that God wants us to understand.

 

[Karl Peters]

KJV​

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.​

As the above passage reads, it shows the timing as neither past, present, or future, but as all of the above. "Is come" addresses Israel in that present tense, but without limiting the statement to that time (now past) alone. Which is very much like Paul's clarification of when the Lord would return, saying the dead shall rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and that we the "firstfruits" have also risen with Christ--all "in Christ", but that the dead precede us having lived and died first. But having spoken of each as two groups as a generalization, he then finished by clarifying, that no, the Lord does not return to us in groups, "but each one in his own order"--"each one" defined in the original language as each one person "individually." Which is to say, each person from the beginning of time to the end of time, is saved individually in their own time.

Likewise then, both subjects and narratives are regarding the same event of the coming of Christ for His chosen. Thus, the use of the term "is come", which accurately describes His coming as "but each one in his own order." Which is to be understood as an explanation only eluding to the whole truth of the matter at that time for the prolonging of times "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." On purpose.

Mat 12:28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

It might be unclear in the above verse whether the kingdom of God is always present, but it is certain that it was present with Jesus Christ at that moment!! And we know that Jesus Christ is the KING OF KINGS!

And when we consider that He said that He will never leave us, as the early Christian understood!

Heb 13:5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

Then the King in and over the Kingdom of God does not leave us, and if He is on the throne, then the Kingdom of God can not leave us either!!!

So it is we read:

Luke 17"21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!' or, ‘There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

And it must be for today, right?

Note: the above verse has "WILL THEY SAY" - so there are some saying something about the kingdom of God and it being in your midst!!!

Who are those who are not saying it is here or there because it is in your midst??

They are not Christian who know the King on the throne, are they?

 

[Wick Stick]

Mark 1: 14,15 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

So is the Kingdom of heaven at hand now, that we have access to it now - or do you think that it is something that will come to earth later, and why do you think that?

In the verse, the verb is ἤγγικεν and it means "to draw near." But it's in the perfect tense, which is a completed action.

So... the kingdom of God has finished drawing near. It's here.

 

[Karl Peters]

The Kingdom of God is a reference to God's Sovereignty. (God is over all and above all and created ALL)

"Kingdom of Heaven" is a more locational reference than anything else....if location was actually....well that's a completely different discussion that most people can't fathom.

But that's the actual difference between the two that God wants us to understand.

Humm???

I agree that God is Sovreign, however there is also a rebellion going on, is there not?

So if some have broken away from the King and now serve another is a place called earth. Then can that be considered a place in which we find the Kingdom of God, since those in that place are not being ruled by the King?

I mean communist China claim that Taiwan it theirs, because Taiwan was also part of China, yet it is not now, is it? The rulers of China do not rule Taiwan, at this time, no matter what they say and no matter that they were part of China, and not matter that China is clearly a more powerful country.

Also Jesus, the KING OF KINGS, clear explained to Pilate, who asked Him if He was a king, that His kingdom was not of this realm/world!

Jn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

So we are back to there is either two Kingdoms, of which Jesus is only the King over one of the, so another must be King over the rest or over Him, yet we read that He is the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, and that He was the anointed placed on the throne, so that conclusion has to be ruled out!!

Which is to say the rebellion is still going on and not all has yet been reset at His feet. Instead there is a prince who is ruling over a place. that place is thus the place Jesus told Pilate about, which is this world and is not part of His Kingdom, like Jesus explained!

The good news is that we can still be in this world yet serve the King; entering in and out - right?

Jn 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

And is this not the good news about the Kingdom of God which we preach?

Mat 4:23 Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.

As for me, I have a Lord and King, who has a kingdom, even the Kingdom of God according to what I hear and believe. He is not in this world, but I find Him via His Holy Spirit who speaks to my spirit. And not only that, He sends His holy angels to also minister to me at times.

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?
He tells me He is sending them,

And so it is that I personally know my King, and go in and out via my spirit connecting with His Spirit, and I talk to Him, the King, and even to His angels who minister to me and watch over me - yet I also find 'Christian' who seem to know nothing about this - and it makes me wonder. Does that group of 'Christians' have a different king or ruler? Is it not written:

Ps 91:1He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty.....
Ps 91:11 ...He will give His angels charge concerning you, To guard you in all your ways.

So how can they say they know the Most High and yet nothing of the angels that is gave us and charge them with guarding us?

Dan 8:16 And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, and he called out and said, “Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision.”

Have they never heard their Lord give an instruction to one of His angels to talk to them? Do they not have any knowledge from experience about the King and His kingdom?

What does going in and out mean? What place to you go in and out of?

2 Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

Again I find it rather hard to talk about what I have seen, heard, and testify to. It is as if they can not accept my testimony, even most (but not all) of those I meet at church!

Jn 3:10,11 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

I testify, that He my Lord and King, whose first words to me were, "Read You Bible", talks to me everyday called Today. We walk and talk together, and He also send His angels to minister to me and guard me. They even help me with my business, or have we not read:

Mat 6:33 “But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

How does seeking first the kingdom give you the things you need in this world, if the angels in the kingdom don't minister to you and watch over you, even telling things that help you give you success in your business, whatever it is?

Indeed the Lord sent me 40 angels and asked me to figure out their names, which meant talking to them to find out what they do. There was praise (Judah) in the front. Joy to the right of praise and Reason to the left of praise. Focus was behind praise. Like the two pillars, Evangelism (Jachin, establishing the Lord) and Intercession (Boaz, strength of in the Lord) stood behind Focus. And Success in the Lord stood behind them, with Obedience behind him. And the angels stretched out to both side making a king of oblong circle with Contentment and Happiness to either end. There were angels like Mercy, Grace, Peace, and more behind Joy and on that side. There were angels like Planning, Organization, Provision, and more behind Reason and on that side.

So it is that His angels were given to me and guard over me, so long as I stay under Him. So I can talk to Him and do, and I can also hear from angels

 

[Karl Peters]

In the verse, the verb is ἤγγικεν and it means "to draw near." But it's in the perfect tense, which is a completed action.

So... the kingdom of God has finished drawing near. It's here.

Yes - it is!

It is still not of this world, but it the King never leaves us, then His Kingdom never leaves us either!

 

[ScottA]

Mat 12:28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

It might be unclear in the above verse whether the kingdom of God is always present, but it is certain that it was present with Jesus Christ at that moment!! And we know that Jesus Christ is the KING OF KINGS!

And when we consider that He said that He will never leave us, as the early Christian understood!

Heb 13:5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

Then the King in and over the Kingdom of God does not leave us, and if He is on the throne, then the Kingdom of God can not leave us either!!!

So it is we read:

Luke 17"21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!' or, ‘There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

And it must be for today, right?

Note: the above verse has "WILL THEY SAY" - so there are some saying something about the kingdom of God and it being in your midst!!!

Who are those who are not saying it is here or there because it is in your midst??

They are not Christian who know the King on the throne, are they?

Right!!

 

[ScottA]

The Kingdom of God is a reference to God's Sovereignty. (God is over all and above all and created ALL)

"Kingdom of Heaven" is a more locational reference than anything else....if location was actually....well that's a completely different discussion that most people can't fathom.

But that's the actual difference between the two that God wants us to understand.

The difference that God wants us to understand is that not having created us in His own omnipresent setting, but in this setting where if a change of presence is to occur, one needs to go or take that action--we must change, and be willing to leave behind this lesser world.

Another way to look at it is to understand that by His creation our status is on a collision course with death--and we must change direction (the very meaning of repentance), wherein He speaks warnings and directions to those who would hear Him that they might be saved.

 

[JohnDB]

I agree that God is Sovreign, however there is also a rebellion going on, is there not?

Okay...
Do you understand the concept of God's Sovereignty?

Just because God chooses to have a "separation" (by appearances only) does by no means intend that God is anything else but Over ALL.
Any rebellion is also instantly crushed by God's Sovereignty....which is what Jesus was warning them about while using their own logic....and that the rebellion of the Pharisees was ensuring their own demise.

 

[Wick Stick]

There is a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God.

I think you're mistaken on this one, John.

The Jews, since ancient times, do not say the name of God, and are reluctant even to write it. So, instead, they substitute other words... the two most common are lord and heaven.

It looks like Matthew, a good Jewish lad, did this in his gospel. Luke, being a Greek lad, just used the generic Greek word for God when he wrote.

We can see in multiple places where they give the same quote, except for the substitution of the one word.

 

[JohnDB]

I think you're mistaken on this one, John.

The Jews, since ancient times, do not say the name of God, and are reluctant even to write it. So, instead, they substitute other words... the two most common are lord and heaven.

It looks like Matthew, a good Jewish lad, did this in his gospel. Luke, being a Greek lad, just used the generic Greek word for God when he wrote.

We can see in multiple places where they give the same quote, except for the substitution of the one word.

It's the English translators who are shy...

The Messianic Jews are not shy with the tetragrammiton.

What they are shy about is "interpreting" the name or translating it....so they stay true to the original Hebrew for God's name or Jesus's name (because Jesus is God)

Here's a messianic Jewish translation that was translated for a South African group of Messianic Jews called the Institute for Scripture Research 1998 edition. I like to use it and another Messianic Jewish translation because I like the way they are translated at times for the different views. (It's not like they are not Christian) Mostly because America and GB tend to have too polarized of a viewpoint that wants to pay homage to translation traditions instead of accuracy...and to assuage the various denominations....(Jews are rude to everyone equally without bias)

Here's a link:

Matthew 12 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)

And where I am readily able and willing to admit when I am wrong...I do need proof and a logic trail to show me how and why.

God is sovereign...there is nothing in creation that has been allowed to perpetuate in error like mankind. Ergo most people who are cognizant of this have great fear when meeting God (myself included).
A manifestation of God truly being in the neighborhood is more than sufficient reason to engage in any number of histrionics and get out big supplies of sack cloth and ashes and begin sacrificing animals to the point the kids think they are next.

Jesus is calling them to action and they keep ignoring the freight train upon whose tracks they are camped out on. (In spite of light, bell, horn, and noise of the engine).

Remember the OT story of when Moses brought the Israelites to the bottom of the mountain when God showed up and the mountain began smoking? That's the sort of images Jesus was trying to get them to understand. Because truly He is God...and they in their Hutzpah were ignoring every sign and wonder that demonstrated that Jesus indeed was God incarnate. Bad stuff happens when Unholy meets a Holy God. It's time to find a bolt hole and screw it tight after you.

 

[Wick Stick]

It's the English translators who are shy...

On this issue? If so it's because they followed a Jewish tradition. In other places, they are quite bold, inserting their own theology into the text.

The Messianic Jews are not shy with the tetragrammaton.

What they are shy about is "interpreting" the name or translating it....so they stay true to the original Hebrew for God's name or Jesus's name (because Jesus is God)

They were in the 1st century AD. The Dead Sea Scrolls demonstrate it beyond a shadow of a doubt. God's name is not written in documents other than Scripture, and even there it is written in the proto-Hebrew script.

 

[JohnDB]

On this issue? If so it's because they followed a Jewish tradition. In other places, they are quite bold, inserting their own theology into the text.

They were in the 1st century AD. The Dead Sea Scrolls demonstrate it beyond a shadow of a doubt. God's name is not written in documents other than Scripture, and even there it is written in the proto-Hebrew script.

There are sects of Judaism that do that for sure...because they are not Levites. Only Levites were allowed to handle scriptures. (Until John's Baptism which instituted the priesthood of every believer) And many Jewish sects(denominations) still practice that belief to this day. However....Messianic Jews generally speaking have faith in John's baptism giving them the right and authority to handle the scriptures including God's proper name.