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Lizbeth

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Bodily growth is not the same as spiritual growth.

Spiritual Growth is first and foremost based on "working out your salvation".....vs, never doing that..

What is that?
Its to understand who you have become as a 'new creation in Christ", that isnt related to works, commandments, or trying to be like Christ.

CHRISTIanity, is all SPIRITual....so, the moment you try to DO THAT, you just stopped.

The minute you try to be good to try to be SPIRITual, you just proved you have no idea what to do.

The minute that "here is what i must DO", starts...then CHRISTianity, and SPIRITuality, leaves the building.

"behold are you saying we are not to do anything".

A.) = Next... ..."ushers....get this one out of here, as they are going to be impossible to teach, as they are too full of SELF to hear."""

Bring me a real student....
We're saved by faith, yet at the same time, the Lord has given us commands and instructions, which the NT is chock full of. He is looking for fruit in keeping with repentance/salvation, and James 2 also speaks of works that work together with one's faith. Therefore, we're instructed, encouraged, exhorted and warned in scripture.

It's hard for the mind to grasp things at times...I kind of think of this as a coin with two sides, but not sure if that is really accurate. Getting saved is not quite the same thing as walking out one's salvation and showing the fruits of it after being saved. Some fruit and obedience may come automatically when we're born again, I think depending on the measure we're given individually - other things require time and a learning curve and God's discipline, as we are God's workmanship, and He is the Potter, we the clay. He really could make us all perfect in a moment if He chose to (like He will in the end), but it seems in God's wisdom that battling this out and suffering through it is just necessary for us. There are things in us that need to die, and things that need to be etched/carved upon our hearts so to speak. And not to mention He is glorifying Himself in the process, in the face of His enemies, so its not even all entirely about us.
 
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Behold

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We're saved by faith, yet at the same time, the Lord has given us commands and instructions, which the NT is chock full of. He is looking for fruit in keeping with repentance/salvation,

God is not looking for "repentance"..... as if you are doing any repenting, then you are not living holy, and that is why you are repenting, LIzbeth.

God is looking for spiritual growth, into spiritual maturity, and that is not the same thing as "trying to be like Jesus".

Let me show you exactly what He's looking for....

"Work out your Salvation"...................so that you become........."as many as be perfect"...........until you exist here......= "the fullness of the stature of Christ".

There are your 3 "CHRISTian" levels.

Baby.

Adult.

Fully Mature..
 
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Lizbeth

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God is not looking for "repentance"..... as if you are doing any repenting, then you are not living holy, and that is why you are repenting, LIzbeth.

God is looking for spiritual growth, into spiritual maturity, and that is not the same thing as "trying to be like Jesus".

Let me show you exactly what He's looking for....

"Work out your Salvation"...................so that you become........."as many as be perfect"...........until you exist here......= "the fullness of the stature of Christ".

There are your 3 "CHRISTian" levels.

Baby.

Adult.

Fully Mature..
I was talking about the repentance that accompanies salvation in the first place, though repentance as necessary after being saved is part of working out our salvation. The Lord is looking for fruit that accompanies repentance in either case.

Yes, we grow and mature as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. What does working out our salvation look like to you? That requires something from us I believe......an endeavouring. We don't just get saved and then forget about it....we have a race to run, a journey to walk out, a battle to fight...the good fight of faith. The battle was won at the cross, but on the other hand we're battling to enforce that victory in a manner of speaking, personally, as well as the overflow to a lost world.
 
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Behold

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I was talking about the repentance that accompanies salvation in the first place, though repentance as necessary after being saved is part of working out our salvation.

Jesus is : Salvation.

That is not you doing anything.

You dont work that out. You learn to exist in Him, in the renewed mind.

That is how you work out your Salvation.
 
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Behold

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Amen!!....and oh boy did that take time to understand....as you well know,Lol.

If Salvation was us trying to be like Christ, and keep commandments, and get water baptized and endure to the end, and all the rest of the Self Saving LIST..........then we'd all be going to Hell.

Once we SEE that "Jesus : is Salvation" and He is in us and we are "in Christ', then we can REST in that revelation, which empowers our discipleship to do this...

= "Present your body as a living sacrifice to God".

The "Secret" of CHRISTianity, is that God empowers redemption through us, if we will stop trying to be our own Salvation.

God's GRACE is our power to live HOLY...................not our self effort.
 
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Ritajanice

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If Salvation was us trying to be like Christ, and keep commandments, and get water baptized and endure to the end, and all the rest of the Self Saving LIST..........then we'd all be going to Hell.

Once we SEE that "Jesus : is Salvation" and He is in us and we are "in Christ', then we can REST in that revelation, which empowers our discipleship to do this...

= "Present your body as a living sacrifice to God".

The "Secret" of CHRISTianity, is that God empowers redemption through us, if we will stop trying to be our own Salvation.

God's GRACE is our power to live HOLY...................not our self effort.
Excellent post again, Praise God for that....oh the years I spent trying to be how I thought God wanted me to be, all in my own strength....well you will know what happened...” I” as in “ ME” burnt out ,lol.

Anyway,Praise God has brought me through to the truth....that burden I know I was carrying has been lifted and it’s now all on JESUS ,Brother....Hallelujah!!..Lol.
 

ChristisGod

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Try to take a step back from the intellectual rabbit hole.

Listen to the scriptures:

“He saith unto him the THIRD time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest [phileō] thou me?” (John 21:17)

The scriptures included the two previous words “agapaō” in the the THREE mentions of the word “love”.

There’s no difference.

Move on…
The passage you quoted uses both agape and phileo and Jesus the first two times asks Peter do your agape Me and Peter responds yes I phileo you. The 3rd time Jesus asks do you phileo Me and Peter in frustration says yes Lord you know that I phileo you- a deep relational love.

5368 philéō (from 5384 /phílos, "affectionate friendship") – properly, to show warm affection in intimate friendship, characterized by tender, heartfelt consideration and kinship.

So below would be accurate :


Jesus: "Peter, do you love Me?"
Peter: "Yes Lord, you know that I love you."

Jesus: "Peter, do you love Me?"
Peter: "Yes Lord, you know that I have intimate friendship, heartfelt affection for you."

Jesus: "Peter, do you love Me?"
Peter: *busted* "Yes Lord, you know that I have intimate friendship, heartfelt affection for you."."



Here is the amplified bible and youngs literal which conveys the meaning.

Amplified Bible
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me [with a deep, personal affection for Me, as for a close friend]?” Peter was grieved that He asked him the third time, “Do you [really] love Me [with a deep, personal affection, as for a close friend]?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know everything; You know that I love You [with a deep, personal affection, as for a close friend].” Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep.

Young's Literal Translation
He saith to him the third time, 'Simon, son of Jonas, dost thou dearly love me?' Peter was grieved that he said to him the third time, 'Dost thou dearly love me?' and he said to him, 'Lord, thou hast known all things; thou dost know that I dearly love thee.' Jesus saith to him, 'Feed my sheep;

John 5:20 V-PIA-3S
GRK: γὰρ πατὴρ φιλεῖ τὸν υἱὸν
NAS: For the Father loves the Son,
KJV: For the Father loveth the Son, and
INT: indeed [the] Father loves the Son

John 11:3 V-PIA-2S
GRK: ἴδε ὃν φιλεῖς ἀσθενεῖ
NAS: behold, he whom You love is sick.
KJV: behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
INT: Behold he whom you love is sick

hope this helps !!!
 

Lizbeth

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If Salvation was us trying to be like Christ, and keep commandments, and get water baptized and endure to the end, and all the rest of the Self Saving LIST..........then we'd all be going to Hell.

Once we SEE that "Jesus : is Salvation" and He is in us and we are "in Christ', then we can REST in that revelation, which empowers our discipleship to do this...

= "Present your body as a living sacrifice to God".

The "Secret" of CHRISTianity, is that God empowers redemption through us, if we will stop trying to be our own Salvation.

God's GRACE is our power to live HOLY...................not our self effort.
I dont' disagree in principle. Walking in the spirit. But it's a battle to get there isn't it...I don't think anybody is "born" perfect and spiritually mature. And all those things you listed in your first sentence we are to do, nevertheless. We have our part....denying our self, taking up our cross....asking, seeking, knocking....acknowledging and repenting when we blow it...etc. Seems to me that even "Present your body a living sacrifice" is on our part. We're not passive in the process of seeking God and wanting to be found pleasing to Him. We are to "labour to enter His rest"....kind of a paradox with these things.
 
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Behold

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I dont' disagree in principle. Walking in the spirit. But it's a battle to get there isn't it..\

Not if you renew your mind.

Here is the battle you are having.

A.) "walking in the Spirit" is not done with your feet or self effort.

Its not that.............as that belief system is "in the flesh"..."the mind of the Flesh".

Walking in the Spirit is to have God's perspective (the Mind of Christ) of who you have become, as a "New Creation in Christ". as your faith.

Its to understand what it means to be "in Christ", vs..."trying to be good" to get there or to try to stay there.

Let me show u the renewed mind.

Its this mind.

"I am the righteousness of God, in Christ'.................no matter what.
"I am the righteousness of God, in Christ'.................no matter what.
"I am the righteousness of God, in Christ'.................no matter what.

You have to get to the "no matter what", or your faith is still existing in SELF righteousness, vs being "Made Righteous" by God.

Once you see that......then you can begin to exist within the revelation knowledge regarding what it means to be 'IN Christ".
 
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Johann

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I dont' disagree in principle. Walking in the spirit. But it's a battle to get there isn't it...I don't think anybody is "born" perfect and spiritually mature. And all those things you listed in your first sentence we are to do, nevertheless. We have our part....denying our self, taking up our cross....asking, seeking, knocking....acknowledging and repenting when we blow it...etc. Seems to me that even "Present your body a living sacrifice" is on our part. We're not passive in the process of seeking God and wanting to be found pleasing to Him. We are to "labour to enter His rest"....kind of a paradox with these things.
Excellent-there are over 1,000 Imperatives in the Pauline epistles as well as the gospels-in the Middle and Passive Voice-what WE need to DO-no questions asked!
Shalom
Johann,
 
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marks

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If Salvation was us trying to be like Christ, and keep commandments, and get water baptized and endure to the end, and all the rest of the Self Saving LIST..........then we'd all be going to Hell.

Once we SEE that "Jesus : is Salvation" and He is in us and we are "in Christ', then we can REST in that revelation, which empowers our discipleship to do this...

= "Present your body as a living sacrifice to God".

The "Secret" of CHRISTianity, is that God empowers redemption through us, if we will stop trying to be our own Salvation.

God's GRACE is our power to live HOLY...................not our self effort.
Exactly!

Amen!

Much love!
 

Behold

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Excellent-there are over 1,000 Imperatives in the Pauline epistles as well as the gospels-in the Middle and Passive Voice-what WE need to DO-no questions asked!
Shalom
Johann,

Plz don't teach your works obsession on my Thread.

You dont do 1000 of those, so why do you always want to put these on people as if they are not real christians, or not dedicated believers, .....unless they do 1000 things?

C'mon Johann, take your endless obsession with WORKS to your OWN Thread and Let these members who are trying to find the Grace of God, read mine, and find God's AMAZING Grace that will empower their Holy Living, and give them rest for their soul.
 
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Johann

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Plz don't teach your works obsession on my Thread.

You dont do 1000 of those, so why do you always want to put these on people as if they are not real christians, unless they do 1000 things?

C'mon Johann, take your endless obsession with WORKS to your OWN Thread and Let these members who are trying to find the Grace of God, read mine, and find Grace.
Brother-don't let us lock horns here-you are the sole expositor of the Pauline epistles-do you know what an Imperative is?

Although @marks agree with you-I don't. @Lizbeth has it right, rightly cutting straight the Scriptures and I concur with her posts/explanations.

C'mon brother, give me examples of Imperatives in the Pauline epistles-since you have it "right" and the vast majority are missing it. Right?

Now don't allow yourself to ramble-just give me three examples in the Pauline epistles where there is an Imperative-surely you can do it? Right?

That's all I'm asking-don't deflect or resort to circular reasoning, since I'm sure you don't even know what an Imperative is-so don't be rude or resorting to sarcasm-just give me what I'm asking you.
J.
 
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Lizbeth

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Not if you renew your mind.

Here is the battle you are having.

A.) "walking in the Spirit" is not done with your feet or self effort.

Its not that.............as that belief system is "in the flesh"..."the mind of the Flesh".

Walking in the Spirit is to have God's perspective (the Mind of Christ) of who you have become, as a "New Creation in Christ". as your faith.

Its to understand what it means to be "in Christ", vs..."trying to be good" to get there or to try to stay there.

Let me show u the renewed mind.

Its this mind.

"I am the righteousness of God, in Christ'.................no matter what.
"I am the righteousness of God, in Christ'.................no matter what.
"I am the righteousness of God, in Christ'.................no matter what.

You have to get to the "no matter what", or your faith is still existing in SELF righteousness, vs being "Made Righteous" by God.

Once you see that......then you can begin to exist within the revelation knowledge regarding what it means to be 'IN Christ".
We've been made the righteousness of Christ, yes....this is in our renewed inner man (why we delight in the law of God after the inner man) But there is a conflict with the old/outer man and this is the area where we need to overcome.
 
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Behold

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Brother-don't let us lock horns here-you are the sole expositor of the Pauline epistles-do you know what an Imperative is?

Brother..

If i took away your computer, and said......."Johann, name 590, "imperatives".

You can't do it.
You can't name 1000 of these WORKS..


So, as i said, obsess on your 1000 ways to try to stay saved, and be accepted by God, on YOUR Thread.
 

Behold

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But there is a conflict with the old/outer man and this is the area where we need to overcome.

You have the conflict.

Listen, You are teaching the exact words of Episkopos. "outer man"..

His theology is Cross Denying, self invented, deception.
 

marks

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Brother-don't let us lock horns here-you are the sole expositor of the Pauline epistles-do you know what an Imperative is?

Although @marks agree with you-I don't. @Lizbeth has it right, rightly cutting straight the Scriptures and I concur with her posts/explanations.

C'mon brother, give me examples of Imperatives in the Pauline epistles-since you have it "right" and the vast majority are missing it. Right?

Now don't allow yourself to ramble-just give me three examples in the Pauline epistles where there is an Imperative-surely you can do it? Right?

That's all I'm asking-don't deflect or resort to circular reasoning, since I'm sure you don't even know what an Imperative is-so don't be rude or resorting to sarcasm-just give me what I'm asking you.
J.
I would respond to this that in what @Behold is describing is how we are able to do as those imperatives tell us.

And the question to ask is, what is the result for the child of God who fails to keep all of those imperatives? If the result is condemnation and loss of salvation, then salvation is in the cross of Christ and in the keeping of those imperatives. If either were to fail then all is lost. And who among us keeps all the imperatives at all times?

Be ye holy, as He is holy, one or one thousand, if that is the one, we all fall short, as I see it.

Is salvation found in our having the right sort of dour demeanor over our failings? I believe we are saved in the cross of Christ, His death, His resurrection, and we are along for the ride. We contribute nothing. We believe, we receive.

How much we benefit, in this world and the next, depends to a certain extent on how committed we are, how much we are willing to sacrifice, how much we are willing to suffer for the sake of righteousness.

Much love!
 

Johann

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Brother..

If i took away your computer, and said......."Johann, name 590, "imperatives".

You can't do it.
You can't name 1000 of these WORKS..


So, as i said, obsess on your 1000 ways to try to stay saved, and be accepted by God, on YOUR Thread.
You are the sole exegete on the Pauline epistles and you are, as I have expected, deflecting, refusing to answer a very simple question-what is an Imperative, and give me three Scripture quotations where these can be found all over the Pauline epistles-scattered-and you can't do it brother?

Just to let you know-I am very familiar with my Koine Greek Bibles and read them, so even when there is "lights out" here in South Africa, no problem-here, you can have my computer.

You sound like a rabbi-give 150 different interpretations on any given verse-no problem.
I now know where is your "weak points" since we are not conversing WITH each other, but PAST each other.

Not being facetious with you, and still consider you as a brother-unless you don't, then we can part ways.
Have a blessed day in YisraEl.
J.
 

Behold

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How much we benefit, in this world and the next, depends to a certain extent on how committed we are, how much we are willing to sacrifice, how much we are willing to suffer for the sake of righteousness.

Much love!


How we are blessed in this Life and how we are rewarded in the Next, is a great Thread.

I hope that Johann or you will write it.

Or i can..

But, THIS THREAD is not that subject. This Thread is not about Self - Effort.. as that is Discipleship, and not the Grace of God.

This Thread, as are most of my Threads.......is dealing with God's Grace and being "made Righteous".

The reason i post so much about God's Grace is because on Forums, all you ever read is....>>"DO THIS< and DO THAT", and that is the problem with most believer's faith.

So, im just asking Johann to keep the "doism", the discipleship, the "presenting your body" on a Thread that is dedicated to that topic.
 
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