Entire Sanctification = "In Christ"

[Michiah-Imla]

Do you read context-or just selective verses?

Do you read at all???

 

[Johann]

Our choice to follow him utilizes Christ's virtue to choose him, which is inherent in the freedom all men enjoy. But if we don't choose to follow him we can't enjoy his atonement for sin. We can't be saved.

Mat_5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Joh_10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my

Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Act_9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

Rom_13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1Ti_2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1Ti_5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

1Ti_5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

1Ti_6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Tit_2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Tit_2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Tit_3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Heb_10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

1Pe_2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Something you want to add?

 

[MatthewG]

Do you read at all???

I enjoy reading scripture, Michiah. I have under my belt at least three times reading all the apostolic record, concerning the 4 gospels, from Romans to Revelation. I nevee read all of acts, but have read Genesis, and Ecc, and Psalms, and Proverbs. Mainly.

So i am well acqauinted with the over all message.

 

[Johann]

I'm not a Pelagianist, and I'm not a Humanist, but I do believe the Bible when it says we must make the effort to follow Christ and to keep following him. You say I've come up against a "brick wall," and yet you've answered none of the points I made. You haven't answered the problem you have with 1 John 2.

Before you want to speak out against the Reformers-

The older expositors for the most part refer αὐτόν, αὐτοῦ, αὐτῷ, 1Jn_2:3-6, to Christ: so Aug[15], Episcop., Grot., Luther, Seb.-Schmidt, Calov., Wolf, Lange, Bengel, Sander, Neander. Socinus inclines to this view, but doubtfully; Erasmus understands αὐτός 1Jn_2:3-4, of God, αὐτός and ἐκεῖνος 1Jn_2:5-6, of Christ.

Most modern Commentators understand αὐτόν, αὐτοῦ, αὐτῷ throughout of God, and ἐκεῖνος of Christ. So Lücke, Baumg.-Crus., De Wette, Huther, Brückner, and in old times Bed[16] and Œc.

That this latter is the right understanding of the terms, is supposed to be shewn by the substitution (?) in 1Jn_2:5 of τοῦ θεοῦ for αὐτοῦ, and its taking up again by ἐν αὐτῷ in 1Jn_2:6, followed by καθὼς ἐκεῖνος περιεπάτησεν. But of this I am by no means thoroughly persuaded: see note, 1Jn_2:6).

[15] Augustine, Bp. of Hippo, 395–430

[16] Bede, the Venerable, 731; Bedegr, a Greek MS. cited by Bede, nearly identical with Cod. “E,” mentioned in this edn only when it differs from E.

"COMMANDMENT" IN JOHN'S WRITINGS

1. Once used of the Mosaic Law, John 8:5

2. Commandments from the Father to Jesus

a. control over His own redemptive sacrifice, John 10:18; 12:49-50; 14:31

b. the world would know Jesus' love for the Father, John 14:31

c. Jesus obeyed the Father's command, John 15:10

3. Commandments from Jesus to believers

a. abide in His love, John 14:15; 15:10

b. love one another, even as He loved them, John 13:34; 15:12,17; 1 John 2:7-8; 3:11,23; 4:7,21; 2 John 5

c. keep His commandment (i.e., b.), John 14:15; 15:10,14; 1 John 2:3,4; 3:22,24; 5:1-3; 2 John 6

4. Commandments from the Father to believers

a. believe in Jesus, 1 John 3:23 (cf. John 6:29)

b. love one another, 2 John 3:23

From a Baptist minister-not a Calvinist or Arminian

Anything you want to edit or add?

 

[Behold]

But if we don't choose to follow him we can't enjoy his atonement for sin. We can't be saved.

A person goes to God as a sinner, ungodly.
They do not go to God making promises to be good, and follow Christ.
So, your theology is "works" in place of Grace".

God does not accept anyone's works to save them, yet you teach that He requires it to save them.

Your Gospel is : Galatians 1:8

You're teaching against the Cross., and denying that Salvation is a Gift.

Don't do that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Mat_5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Joh_10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my

Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Act_9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

Rom_13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1Ti_2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1Ti_5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

1Ti_5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

1Ti_6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Tit_2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Tit_2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Tit_3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Heb_10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

1Pe_2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Something you want to add?

Awesome!

 

[Johann]

Do you read at all???

A voracious reader-


A — 2: φιλέω ►
(Strong's #5368 — Verb — phileo — fil-eh'-o )
is to be distinguished from agapao in this, that phileo more nearly represents "tender affection." The two words are used for the "love" of the Father for the Son, John 3:35 (No. 1); 5:20 (No. 2); for the believer, John 14:21 (No. 1); 16:27 (No. 2); both, of Christ's "love" for a certain disciple, John 13:23 (No. 1); 20:2 (No. 2).

Yet the distinction between the two verbs remains, and they are never used indiscriminately in the same passage; if each is used with reference to the same objects, as just mentioned, each word retains its distinctive and essential character.

Phileo is never used in a command to men to "love" God; ---it is, however, used as a warning in 1 Corinthians 16;22; agapao is used instead, e.g., Matthew 22:37; Luke 10:27; Romans 8:28; 1 Corinthians 8:3; 1 Peter 1:8; 1 John 4:21 . The distinction between the two verbs finds a conspicuous instance in the narrative of John 21:15-17 . The context itself indicates that agapao in the first two questions suggests the "love" that values and esteems (cp. Revelation 12:11 ). It is an unselfish "love," ready to serve. The use of phileo in Peter's answers and the Lord's third question, conveys the thought of cherishing the object above all else, of manifesting an affection characterized by constancy, from the motive of the highest veneration. See also Trench, Syn., xii.
Again, to "love" (phileo) life, from an undue desire to preserve it, forgetful of the real object of living, meets with the Lord's reproof, John 12:25 . On the contrary, to "love" life (agapao) as used in 1 Peter 3:10 , is to consult the true interests of living. Here the word phileo would be quite inappropriate.
Note: In Mark 12:38 , AV, thelo, "to wish," is translated "love" (RV, "desire").

Love - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words -

A 1: ἀγαπάω ► (Strong's #25 Verb agapao ag-ap-ah'-o ) ;and the corresponding noun agape (B, No. 1 below) present 'the characteristic word of Christianity, and since the Spirit of revelation has used it to express ideas

www.studylight.org

A verocious reader and listener-thank you for that link @Michiah-Imla

 

[Randy Kluth]

Before you want to speak out against the Reformers-

The older expositors for the most part refer αὐτόν, αὐτοῦ, αὐτῷ, 1Jn_2:3-6, to Christ: so Aug[15], Episcop., Grot., Luther, Seb.-Schmidt, Calov., Wolf, Lange, Bengel, Sander, Neander. Socinus inclines to this view, but doubtfully; Erasmus understands αὐτός 1Jn_2:3-4, of God, αὐτός and ἐκεῖνος 1Jn_2:5-6, of Christ.

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

It's an interesting question, and I would have to defer to those who know Greek better than I do--I'm less than an amateur, but do have a Greek/English Interlinear. It appears to me, on the surface, that John makes no effort to distinguish the commandments of God and the commandments of Christ. You would think, if this was important to him, that he would begin establishing whose commandments he was speaking of--God or Christ?

In pursuing this it appears that John does at some places distinguish them, but in almost "confusing" them he finds them of the same quality. There is no sense distinguishing God and Christ if they are the same Deity! The commandments can be attributed to Christ even before he appeared in his humanity! So what's the point?

I'm not anti-Reformer. I was raised in Reformation Theology, confirmed in Reformation Theology, and continue to embrace Reformation Theology for the most part. I only disagree with Luther on his extreme "bondage of the will," which other Reformation Christians seemed to do, as well, such as Melanchthon. Prior to that, Augustine's extreme view of Grace and Predestination seemed to preclude free will, as ell, and was never fully embraced Church-wide.

Nonetheless, what both Augustine and Luther were trying to argue remains critically-important, that Christ's atonement stands apart from human works, and must be accepted by men in order to be saved. That is, they cannot be saved by Good Works apart from accepting the atonement of Christ.

To accept the atonement of Christ one must freely choose to follow Christ. In doing so one rejects his own self-autonomous way of living to embrace the "Christian" way of living, which I believe is a partnership between our own free will and the choice to accept Christ as the necessary ingredient enabling our works to be inspired by and filled by the virtues of Christ.

Most modern Commentators understand αὐτόν, αὐτοῦ, αὐτῷ throughout of God, and ἐκεῖνος of Christ. So Lücke, Baumg.-Crus., De Wette, Huther, Brückner, and in old times Bed[16] and Œc.

That this latter is the right understanding of the terms, is supposed to be shewn by the substitution (?) in 1Jn_2:5 of τοῦ θεοῦ for αὐτοῦ, and its taking up again by ἐν αὐτῷ in 1Jn_2:6, followed by καθὼς ἐκεῖνος περιεπάτησεν. But of this I am by no means thoroughly persuaded: see note, 1Jn_2:6).

[15] Augustine, Bp. of Hippo, 395–430

[16] Bede, the Venerable, 731; Bedegr, a Greek MS. cited by Bede, nearly identical with Cod. “E,” mentioned in this edn only when it differs from E.

"COMMANDMENT" IN JOHN'S WRITINGS

1. Once used of the Mosaic Law, John 8:5

2. Commandments from the Father to Jesus

a. control over His own redemptive sacrifice, John 10:18; 12:49-50; 14:31

b. the world would know Jesus' love for the Father, John 14:31

c. Jesus obeyed the Father's command, John 15:10

3. Commandments from Jesus to believers

a. abide in His love, John 14:15; 15:10

b. love one another, even as He loved them, John 13:34; 15:12,17; 1 John 2:7-8; 3:11,23; 4:7,21; 2 John 5

c. keep His commandment (i.e., b.), John 14:15; 15:10,14; 1 John 2:3,4; 3:22,24; 5:1-3; 2 John 6

4. Commandments from the Father to believers

a. believe in Jesus, 1 John 3:23 (cf. John 6:29)

b. love one another, 2 John 3:23

From a Baptist minister-not a Calvinist or Arminian

Anything you want to edit or add?

I appreciate it.

 

[Johann]

There is no sense distinguishing God and Christ if they are the same Deity! The commandments can be attributed to Christ even before he appeared in his humanity! So what's the point?

Absolutely correct.

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psa 40:9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.


Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.


when: Heb_10:7, Heb_1:6; Mat_11:3; Luk_7:19 *Gr.
Sacrifice: Psa_40:6-8, Psa_50:8-23; Isa_1:11; Jer_6:20; Amo_5:21-22
but: Heb_10:10, Heb_2:14, Heb_8:3; Gen_3:15; Isa_7:14; Jer_31:22; Mat_1:20-23; Luk_1:35; Joh_1:14; Gal_4:4; 1Ti_3:16; 1Jn_4:2-3; 2Jn_1:7
hast thou prepared me: or, thou hast fitted me


Glad we have met.
Johann.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Absolutely correct.

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psa 40:9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.


Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.


when: Heb_10:7, Heb_1:6; Mat_11:3; Luk_7:19 *Gr.
Sacrifice: Psa_40:6-8, Psa_50:8-23; Isa_1:11; Jer_6:20; Amo_5:21-22
but: Heb_10:10, Heb_2:14, Heb_8:3; Gen_3:15; Isa_7:14; Jer_31:22; Mat_1:20-23; Luk_1:35; Joh_1:14; Gal_4:4; 1Ti_3:16; 1Jn_4:2-3; 2Jn_1:7
hast thou prepared me: or, thou hast fitted me


Glad we have met.
Johann.

I appreciate very much your diligence, and your willingness to cut to the heart of debates like this. And you seem to be on track *with Christ,* which is the most important ingredient.

I would encourage you to re-read my posts, as we discuss these kinds of complex topics. My tendency is to send a response quickly, and only after that correcting obvious errors and adding greater clarity in the minutes following. Thanks for your understanding!

 

[Randy Kluth]

A veracious reader-


A veracious reader and listener-thank you for that link @Michiah-Imla

I'm the least "voracious" of a reader in my birth family! And still, I read quite a bit. Claiming one who posts in this forum "doesn't read enough" seems a little shallow, you think?

 

[Behold]

To accept the atonement of Christ one must freely choose to follow Christ. In doing so one rejects his own self-autonomous way of living to embrace the "Christian" way of living,

This is nonsense, Randy.

That is not BIBLE< that is their theology, and its self righteousness, in place of God's Grace.


Listen,
God saves you, not because you choose to follow Santa Clause, the Pope, or your idea of "be like Christ".

"""""Christ came to SAVE SINNERS, """

The Cross is for SIN, and to be saved is to be redeemed from it.

This is apart from your works, and self effort.

Do not ADD your filthy works to the Cross of Christ as YOUR IDEA of "how to be saved"... as this is : Galatians 1:8

 

[Johann]

I'm the least "voracious" of a reader in my birth family! And still, I read quite a bit. Claiming one who posts in this forum "doesn't read enough" seems a little shallow, you think?

Thank you for the "correction" brother-and here comes the surprise, English is not my mother tongue "voracious-veracious" Lol!
Johann.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is nonsense, Randy.

That is not BIBLE< that is their theology, and its self righteousness, in place of God's Grace.


Listen,
God saves you, not because you choose to follow Santa Clause, the Pope, or your idea of "be like Christ".

If you think that the choice to be "like Christ" is akin to "choosing to follow Santa Claus," you are terribly messed up. You have rejected 1 John 2, and apostolic teaching, generally.

I understand that you have the same problem with Free Will that Augustine and Luther had. But you don't resolve the problem any better than those great men of God did. I didn't expect that you would. Neither do you even show understanding of the problem. So it's problem of no value to debate this with you?

"""""Christ came to SAVE SINNERS, """

The Cross is for SIN, and to be saved is to be redeemed from it.

This is apart from your works, and self effort.

Do not ADD your filthy works to the Cross of Christ as YOUR IDEA of "how to be saved"... as this is : Galatians 1:8

The nicest garments can be rendered "filthy" simply by spilling food on them! The righteousness of the greatest saints can be spoiled by a single act of infidelity. The point is not that Good Works don't exist, but that apart from the purifying work of Christ they will always be viewed as spoiled Good Works.

When we choose to follow Christ we are choosing to do the good works of Christ as well as accept his purification of our participation in those good works. Our good works is the choice to do good while inspired by the love that God has placed within us.

 

[Behold]

Reader,

Lets say there is no bible, no theology, no seminary, no denominations, and all there is on this earth, is just people who have sinned.
God says to us all..."I can't have a relationship with you, as my Spirit is Holy, and your spirit is not..
= Your Sin has separated us, and i am going to offer my Son for you, for your sin, so that by this eternal sin offering, i can have you as my own Son/Daughter....forever "

God says...>"will you take my Son into your heart, believing what i just told you ??
Will you let my Son Jesus die for all your sin, so that i can have you as my Son/Daughter, forever" ??
"Will you give me your TRUST ????

Reader.... = Have you said "yes"? Do you remember that day, moment?

That is : "The simplicity that is IN Christ"..

You take JESUS, and God takes you.
God offers His Son on The Cross, to eternally establish you as His Son/Daughter..
This is the Blood Atonement doing that for you.
This is the eternal redemption that is found only "in Christ".

 

[Behold]

Reader, what is your part in God's Salvation?
You are to receive it, by faith.
You are to receive it by BELIEVING That God will do what He said, keeping your eyes on Jesus who is made unto you, RIGHTEOUSNESS, Redemption... Eternal Life, Eternal Forgiveness, Sanctification, and Justification.

GOD told us, If you will take my Son, i will make you forever mine....forever.
Do you trust Him?

Reader.....Jesus proved this is all True when He rose from the Dead.
And He did.
Jesus is ALIVE !.

Listen...

""all that Call......all that Come....all that WILL.. I will make you Mine Forever, God says."" John 3:16

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thank you for the "correction" brother-and here comes the surprise, English is not my mother tongue "voracious-veracious" Lol!
Johann.

I'm assuming you're German, or at least Germanic? My last name is German. Both grandparents on one side were German.

 

[Behold]

If you think that the choice to be "like Christ" is akin to "choosing to follow Santa Claus,"

When we choose to follow Christ we are choosing to do the good works of Christ

The teaching that a sinner....... coming to the Cross, is going there, bargaining with God........ like this.

"God, i promise that i will do good works, if you will save me".

is a lie of the Devil.


Listen,
God does not accept your bargain, to save you., and you can tell that to Randy's Self Effort Gospel of Self.

God only accepts you based on Jesus who said...."no person comes to the Father, but by ME"

= MY Sacrifie
= My Blood Atonement


So, when you add to the Cross, your idea, theology, that "my part that i must do".......other than give God your faith, then your are deceived, self righteous, and a Cross denier.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The teaching that a sinner....... coming to the Cross, is going there, bargaining with God........ like this.

"God, i promise that i will do good works, if you will save me".

is a lie of the Devil.

Yes, it is. We don't disagree on that. Again, you're not showing you've studied the problem or understand the problem. It does not involve obtaining Salvation apart from Christ by our own independent good works. Our good work is to believe in Christ. It is to choose to follow him. It is the choice to do all our good works *in him* so that his blood cleanses our sin and any impurity in our works.

 

[Behold]

When we choose to follow Christ we are choosing to do the good works of Christ

When we go to Christ, its not to follow, its to be SAVED.

The following, is subsequent, and is not a part of WHY God saves you, initially for forever.

God saves you, because you gave God your sin in repentance, and your FAITH in Christ...., and God takes that Faith, and accepts it, and Justifies the BELIEVER.

"Faith is COUNTED".

Jesus said, "all that BELIEVE IN ME...."I give unto you.....Eternal Life, and you shall never go to Hell (Perish)

A Cross denying HERETIC........rewrites that verse, like this Randy and Johann

"All that come unto me, and promise to be good, and commit to do works, and follow me........if you promise...if you commit......then i will die for you".

So, that Cross Denying Grace Rejection Theology you both are teaching, that Episkopos teaches, is DAMNED.

Galatians 1:8

You should both let it go, get far away from it...... never teach it in public...... and instead Give Christ alone all the Credit due HIM Alone for what He has completed for you, on the Cross, as the ""Gift of Salvation, and the GIFT of Righteousness'

Don't continue to SPIT on God's gift with your Gospel of Works, you 2.

Not a good idea to keep doing it.