Equal to Christ!

[Matthias]

then why did the Jewish monotheists kill him?

The Romans killed him. Not all Jews were opposed to Jesus (himself a Jew) and his messianic claim. Not even all in leadership positions were opposed to him.

Matt 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

What he said didn’t go over well with the Jewish leadership which rejected him. Surprised? We shouldn’t be. They turned him over to the Romans for them to do to him what they wanted done to him but weren’t legally able to do.

 

[Matthias]

monotheist only means one God!

How many more times must I say it?

Monotheism means one God.

Let’s agree on it, once and for all. There’s no reason not to.

All Christians and Jew and trinitarians are monotheistic
And believe in one God

Those who are observant are.

The one God who is only one person isn’t a one God who is three persons.

do you suppose the doctrine of the trinity means three God’s???

No.

you know the Athanasian creed!

Yes.

As I mentioned earlier, Jesus himself has a creed and the Athanasian creed isn’t it.

 

[ScottA]

Councils, creeds, dogma’s, catechisms and decrees of the church are binding on all the faithful and are the teaching of Christ!!!

Lk 10:16 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as the Father sent me, so I send you! (The apostles and their successors have the SAME mission, ministry, power, and authority as Jesus Christ!

To reject Christ teaching authority in his church is to reject Christ! Lk 10:16

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

A dogma of the Catholic Church is defined as "a truth revealed by God, which the magisterium of the Church declared as binding on all the faithful, Dogma is the divinely revealed truth, declared as such by the infallible teaching authority of Jesus Christ in His holy church!

Dogma! Or De Fide! Or Thee faith!

The faith of Christians!
An inconvertible unchallengeable truth revealed by God!
Truth like God who revealed it is immutable! Unchangeable!

Christ is the truth! Jn 14:6
The church is the pillar of truth! 1 Tim 3:15

The one true church founded by Christ on the authority of the apostles is ir-reformable!

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 4:5

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

That all was certainly offered...it just didn't happen.

What actually happened is also written. Why don't you also quote Jesus saying He would come when you do not expect, or Peter in saying that false teachers will come among you and lead many to destruction, or Paul who foretold the great apostasy of believing a lie resulting in strong delusion? This is the church age and all of that is now the result of what the church has done--against Christ.

Which is not to say the church did not do many good things and basically carry the water of the gospel--that they did.

But the prophecies of failure are now a [biblical] fact. It also doesn't mean a loss of salvation for all who follow this path of many failures. To many, it is rather just as Christ warned, that He would "cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Which is to say, He would leave them to their flesh until it passes, not to fully receive the Spirit until they are raised up the last day. As He also said: “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given."

 

[theefaith]

There’s a better than good probability that your spiritual ancestors wouldn’t allow me to eat said potato, at least not in their company.

what’s at stake? Usually a baked potato!

but burning at the steak but that for hardend heretics who refuse to stop teaching their errors not someone who is honestly mistaken about difficult doctrine

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Wow! Talk about allegorizing things until they no longer teach what God teaches!

Purgatory is a denial of teh efficacy of teh blood of Jesus. It says that teh blood of Jesus is not enough and that is Satan's biggest lie to deceive Catholics.

AND satan's best JOKE!!!! Just imagine the poor Catholic who dies and winds up in "Purgatory", but then realizes it's HELL, and they're NEVER getting out!!!!

 

[Matthias]

what’s at stake? Usually a baked potato!

but burning at the steak but that for hardend heretics who refuse to stop teaching their errors not someone who is honestly mistaken about difficult doctrine

Thanks. I thought that’s where you were going with it, started to say as much, but changed my mind. Your spiritual ancestors weren’t burning Jewish monotheists at the stake (loved your “steak” pun, btw) in 325 AD. That came later.

I had the small picture in mind when I said let’s go back to Nicaea. You had a much bigger picture in mind. There’s nothing wrong with that, I just wanted you to be the one to say it.

Your spiritual ancestors would have persecuted me, tortured me and burned me at the stake.

Would you approve if they were able to do that today and did it to me?

 

[theefaith]

The Messiah’s faith is binding on his followers.

members by faith and baptism not followers

 

[theefaith]

Thanks for the feedback.

No, that’s not my issue with the Trinity.

I believe the one God is the Messiah’s God. The Messiah’s God isn’t the Trinity. The Messiah’s God is only one person, the Father. There is no God besides the Messiah’s God.

There’s my issue with the Trinity.



Yes, but it isn’t the Messiah’s monotheistic faith.



That’s a description of your God, not the Messiah’s God.

”1. The one God. (a) theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3).”


(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)


The Messiah himself is, by definition, unitarian.

im confused, both doctrines have God as one God, one divine nature? So there is no difference???

 

[theefaith]

The Romans killed him. Not all Jews were opposed to Jesus (himself a Jew) and his messianic claim. Not even all in leadership positions were opposed to him.



What he said didn’t go over well with the Jewish leadership which rejected him. Surprised? We shouldn’t be. They turned him over to the Romans for them to do to him what they wanted done to him but weren’t legally able to do.

So the nation of Israel
In the person of the high priest consented to his death! Why cos he claimed to be the son of God, equal to God????

 

[theefaith]

How many more times must I say it?

Monotheism means one God.

Let’s agree on it, once and for all. There’s no reason not to.



Those who are observant are.

The one God who is only one person isn’t a one God who is three persons.



No.



Yes.

As I mentioned earlier, Jesus himself has a creed and the Athanasian creed isn’t it.

we are not pagans who are pantheists

why can’t it be simply one God, one divine nature and only one person be revealed until Christ gave the fullness of faith fullness of revelation including the three persons?

 

[theefaith]

Thanks. I thought that’s where you were going with it, started to say as much, but changed my mind. Your spiritual ancestors weren’t burning Jewish monotheists at the stake (loved your “steak” pun, btw) in 325 AD. That came later.

I had the small picture in mind when I said let’s go back to Nicaea. You had a much bigger picture in mind. There’s nothing wrong with that, I just wanted you to be the one to say it.

Your spiritual ancestors would have persecuted me, tortured me and burned me at the stake.

Would you approve if they were able to do that today and did it to me?

no, as I said that’s for unrepentant heretics who refuse to stop teaching their lies

 

[Matthias]

im confused, both doctrines have God as one God, one divine nature? So there is no difference???

Jewish monotheism - one God.

Trinitarian monotheism - one God.

Identical, up to this point.

More than one God - polytheism.

Jewish monotheism avoids polytheism.

Trinitarian monotheism avoids polytheism.

Identical, up to this point.

Now comes the divergence.

There is a difference between “one God is only one person, the Father” and “one God is three persons”.

 

[Matthias]

no, as I said that’s for unrepentant heretics who refuse to stop teaching their lies

Come on now. You know what I believe and teach. You’ve probably heard trinitarians say that I have no love of the truth and that what I teach and believe is a lie.

You also know that I’m an ex-trinitarian. I once believed in and taught others the doctrine of the Trinity. (I still teach people about the doctrine of the Trinity.) I’ve walked away from trinitarianism, abandoned it, speak openly against it. I offer something which I’m convinced is better in its place - Primitive Christianity, Jewish monotheism - and urge others to consider doing the same.

You know I’ve read the Athanasian creed. I’ve probably read it many more times than the average Protestant has. You’ve brought it to my attention on several occasions. I know what it says. You know what it says. I reject it.

Let’s jump in Mr. Peabody’s Wayback Machine and set the dial to the days of the Spanish Inquisition. We’re having this conversation then, not now. You ask me to repent and come back. No, I can’t in good conscience do that. You ask me then to please, at least, don’t tell anyone what I believe and, whatever else I do, to cease teaching heresy. No, I can’t in good conscience stop teaching what I believe to be true and you believe to be false.

Where does that leave me in the eyes of the RCC?

An unrepentant heretic who refuses to stop teaching lies.

What happens next? We know what happens next.

Jumping back - quickly! - into the Wayback Machine, we set the dial for right now.

Nothing has changed in regard to what I believe and teach. I’m the same unrepentant heretic teaching what the RCC believes are lies now that I was when we visited the days of the Inquisition.

So, is it for me or is it not?

 

[Matthias]

im confused, both doctrines have God as one God, one divine nature? So there is no difference???

I wanted to come back to this and give you something which I think you’ll find helpful. It doesn’t make much of an impression on Protestants but it should on Catholics.

“...it’s own conception of the Trinity was looked upon by the Fathers themselves as a combination of Jewish monotheism and pagan polytheism, except that to them this combination was a good combination; in fact, it was to them an ideal combination of what is best in Jewish monotheism and of what is best in pagan polytheism, and consequently they gloried in it and pointed to it as evidence of the truth of their belief. We have on this the testimony of Gregory of Nyssa - one of the great figures in the history of the philosophic formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity - and his words are repeated by John of Damascus - the last of the Church Fathers.

The Christian conception of God, argues Gregory of Nyssa, is neither the polytheism of the Greeks nor the monotheism of the Jews and consequently it must be true, for ’the truth passes in the mean between these two conceptions, destroying each heresy, and yet, accepting what is useful to it from each. The Jewish dogma is destroyed by the acceptance of the Word and by the belief in the Spirit, while the polytheistic error of the Greek school is made to vanish by the unity of the nature abrogating this imagination of plurality.’”

(Henry Austryn Wolfson, The Philosophy of the Church Fathers, Vol. I, pp. 362-363, Second Edition, Revised)

Bold is mine.

Gregory of Nyssa, a key figure in the post-biblical formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity - a giant of the trinitarian faith in Roman Catholicism - calls it plain.

His comment about “accepting what is useful from Jewish monotheism and the polytheism of the Greeks” should raise trinitarian eyebrows, especially Protestant eyebrows; but it will raise few.

What’s more important to me, however, is his comment about “destroying the heresy of Jewish monotheism; destroying the Jewish dogma.”

He’s absolutely right. It does.

So what?

Jesus of Nazareth is a Jewish monotheist.

The doctrine of the Trinity, Gregory of Nyssa is pleased to candidly tell us, destroys the dogma, the heresy, of the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism.

The Church slowly turned away from the monotheism of the head of the Church.

At his direction, in post-biblical times, through apostolic succession, we’re told we must believe. I don’t.

 

[Matthias]

we are not pagans who are pantheists

I speak of you as Christians, not as pagans who are pantheists.

why can’t it be simply one God, one divine nature and only one person be revealed until Christ gave the fullness of faith fullness of revelation including the three persons?

I address that in post #114. I wanted to keep it separate from my comment about how I speak of you so that neither would be lost; one overshadowed by the other.

 

[Matthias]

members by faith and baptism not followers

That sounds like splitting hairs to me, but maybe it isn’t.

I’m a follower of the Messiah. I’m a disciple of Rabbi Jesus. I have faith in him and my faith is his faith.

 

[Matthias]

So the nation of Israel
In the person of the high priest consented to his death!

So too did his God.

Why cos he claimed to be the son of God, equal to God????

That’s one of the reasons. Functional equality with God places him in a position of authority.

 

[Matthias]

no, as I said that’s for unrepentant heretics who refuse to stop teaching their lies

Have you ever noticed my avatar? Do you know the story behind it?

The man in the water is a trinitarian.* The man reaching out to rescue him is Dirk Willems, an Anabaptist.

Willems’ story is told in Martyr’s Mirror or The Bloody Theater. I’m linking the entry in Wikipedia that summarizes it.

Dirk Willems - Wikipedia

Like Willems, I reject infant baptism. I was rebaptized after I stopped believing in the Trinity.

I don’t know if Willems was a trinitarian or not. He probably was, the majority of Anabaptists - then as now, were - but some were unitarians.

You and I are in a similar situation. Willems had escaped from prison (he was imprisoned merely because he was an Anabaptist) and the trinitarian prison guard who was chasing after him fell through the ice. Willems saw what happened to his pursuer, turned back, and rescued the drowning guard.

The grateful guard asked for Willems to be released.

No good deed goes unpunished, as the saying goes. Willems could have gotten away but out of love for his enemy he abandoned the effort. He was recaptured, put back in prison, tortured? and killed - burned at the “steak” on May 16, 1569 - for his faith.

I wonder. Knowing what you know about Willems / me, would you ask for Willems / my release or would you quietly go along with my imprisonment, torture and execution out of obedience to the Roman Catholic Church?

* I had to go back and check the Martyr’s Mirror entry (there’s a link to it in the Wikipedia entry) to check on whether the guard was a Protestant or Roman Catholic. The story in Martyr’s Mirror strongly implies the guard was Roman Catholic.

 

[theefaith]

Jewish monotheism - one God.

Trinitarian monotheism - one God.

Identical, up to this point.

More than one God - polytheism.

Jewish monotheism avoids polytheism.

Trinitarian monotheism avoids polytheism.

Identical, up to this point.

Now comes the divergence.

There is a difference between “one God is only one person, the Father” and “one God is three persons”.

is one God in three persons an impossibility?

 

[Matthias]

is one God in three persons an impossibility?

Short answer. Yes.

Long answer.

Is one God in one million persons an impossibility?

I ask because of an experience I had on an Internet forum with a trinitarian who said that it is possible, since “all things are possible with God”. His position is that we know of three for certain, but there could be more that we don’t know about yet.

I don’t know about you but, as an ex-trinitarian, I found that pretty shocking. I defended historical orthodox trinitarianism, as I do whenever a trinitarian strays from it.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that you would have found what the trinitarian believed, said and insisted upon as pretty shocking too. A complete impossibility?

I’m a Jewish monotheist. When you ask if I think God in three persons is an impossibility, my reaction is the same as it was when the trinitarian told me God could be one million persons. Why? Because that’s not what I see Jesus believing and teaching about his God, the one God.