Eternal Torment?

[Copper25]

Revelation 21)4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.Now where were they?Revelation 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.That makes it very very plain. NowWhere do they go?Revelation 2014) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Now look14) Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. 15) And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name: 16) That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. 17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18) But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19) And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.The former shall not come to mind for who, the redeemed of God. The unbeleiving shall not have the promise of the former things not coming to mind. And if One says that God shall not remember, they err badly. He ALREADY knows EVERYTHING, from beginning to end. From who is going to be damned, to who is going to be saved. God neither increases in knowledge, nor decreases in knowledge, because His knowledge is perfect! 1,000,000 years after the great white throne judgement day, where will those whose names are not found in the book of life be? Revelation 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Name a verse that says that these people will stop burning in the lake of fire.Simply put, one is going to have everlasting life or they shall have everlasting death.Heaven is the peace, the love, the joy of being in the presence of God forever. The lake of fire is going to be God's perpetual wrath because He is an infinitely holy, worthy, and righteous God, so even for one sin, God can leave them burning in a lake of fire. Does God enjoy such things, no, but His justice does demand eternal punishment because of who the person has offended. The offending of an infinitely perfect God is deserving of infinite punishment which will be seen and experienced by many, ak.a., the lake of fire.The second death is a perpetual death. I think that might have been missed by some people on this thread. The fire is plainly described as an everlasting fire, Matthew 1339) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.Notice what Christ does not say in matthew 13:42), that the weeping and gnashing of teeth shall ever be stopped!Christ says "in the end of this world" and when shall the end of this world be? AFTER the Millennial reignRevelation 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.At this point the old earth has not passed awayRevelation 207) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.Then10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Now the thing to notice about lake of fire, this is the same lake of fire that hell, death, and all those that were not found in the book of life were tossed into.Now seeing that the devil and the beast and the false prophets were cast into this EVERLASTING, not temporal, not a o now you don't exist anymore sort of punishment; and we have drawn to the conclusion that it is the same lake of fire where hell, death, and all those that were not found in the book of life are going to be tossed into, we can thus conclude that all those souls lost, will be lost forever in a burning blaze. The soul will be in a perpetual state of burning.And then after they have been dealt withRevelation 211) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.Now considering that the devil would be in everlasting torment, and we have shown that the same lake is for those whose names were not found in the book of life, do you really think that they would instantly just evaporate? No, They are joined with the devil in everlasting tormentLook carefullyRevelation 149) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.Notice "their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever", if Satan be unleashed after the thousand years, then how can that verse be talking about any time before the Gog and Magog are defeated?Look, look!Revelation 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Notice the similarity? to Revelation 14:11?"11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.Now notice something to, God is present, the Lamb see's all, including their everlasting torment in the lake of fire, which plainly put is the wrath of God.The angel shouting "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" was refering to the Second death, which is forever!"drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation" = lake of Fire!

I think this makes it painfully clear, crystal clear, that the second death, which is perpetual, which is everlasting, shall be a fate shared by all who are not God's chosen!FYI Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in the temporal life, but Christ still talked of their up coming judgment.Mark 6:11) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.I hope this helped you all in some way. Simple and plain truth, even when people try to complicate the matter.hebrews 4:12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.Glory be to God forever more!

 

[logabe]

QUOTE (Copper25 @ Apr 18 2009, 11:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72763
Revelation 21)4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.Now where were they?Revelation 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.That makes it very very plain. NowWhere do they go?Revelation 2014) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Now look14) Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. 15) And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name: 16) That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. 17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18) But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19) And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.The former shall not come to mind for who, the redeemed of God. The unbeleiving shall not have the promise of the former things not coming to mind. And if One says that God shall not remember, they err badly. He ALREADY knows EVERYTHING, from beginning to end. From who is going to be damned, to who is going to be saved. God neither increases in knowledge, nor decreases in knowledge, because His knowledge is perfect! 1,000,000 years after the great white throne judgement day, where will those whose names are not found in the book of life be? Revelation 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Name a verse that says that these people will stop burning in the lake of fire.Simply put, one is going to have everlasting life or they shall have everlasting death.Heaven is the peace, the love, the joy of being in the presence of God forever. The lake of fire is going to be God's perpetual wrath because He is an infinitely holy, worthy, and righteous God, so even for one sin, God can leave them burning in a lake of fire. Does God enjoy such things, no, but His justice does demand eternal punishment because of who the person has offended. The offending of an infinitely perfect God is deserving of infinite punishment which will be seen and experienced by many, ak.a., the lake of fire.The second death is a perpetual death. I think that might have been missed by some people on this thread. The fire is plainly described as an everlasting fire, Matthew 1339) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.Notice what Christ does not say in matthew 13:42), that the weeping and gnashing of teeth shall ever be stopped!Christ says "in the end of this world" and when shall the end of this world be? AFTER the Millennial reignRevelation 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.At this point the old earth has not passed awayRevelation 207) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.Then10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Now the thing to notice about lake of fire, this is the same lake of fire that hell, death, and all those that were not found in the book of life were tossed into.Now seeing that the devil and the beast and the false prophets were cast into this EVERLASTING, not temporal, not a o now you don't exist anymore sort of punishment; and we have drawn to the conclusion that it is the same lake of fire where hell, death, and all those that were not found in the book of life are going to be tossed into, we can thus conclude that all those souls lost, will be lost forever in a burning blaze. The soul will be in a perpetual state of burning.And then after they have been dealt withRevelation 211) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.Now considering that the devil would be in everlasting torment, and we have shown that the same lake is for those whose names were not found in the book of life, do you really think that they would instantly just evaporate? No, They are joined with the devil in everlasting tormentLook carefullyRevelation 149) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.Notice "their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever", if Satan be unleashed after the thousand years, then how can that verse be talking about any time before the Gog and Magog are defeated?Look, look!Revelation 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Notice the similarity? to Revelation 14:11?"11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.Now notice something to, God is present, the Lamb see's all, including their everlasting torment in the lake of fire, which plainly put is the wrath of God.The angel shouting "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" was refering to the Second death, which is forever!"drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation" = lake of Fire!

I think this makes it painfully clear, crystal clear, that the second death, which is perpetual, which is everlasting, shall be a fate shared by all who are not God's chosen!FYI Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in the temporal life, but Christ still talked of their up coming judgment.Mark 6:11) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.I hope this helped you all in some way. Simple and plain truth, even when people try to complicate the matter.hebrews 4:12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.Glory be to God forever more!

In 1 Timothy 1:17 we are told that Jesus is the King of the Ages. That is, He is the rightful Ruler of the earth who shall reign during the final two ages of time. There is first the Tabernacles Age, which culminates the plan of God in the present world-order, followed by the Age of the New Heavens and the New Earth. These are the ages of the ages, or the ages to come.After the 7th thousand-year period (Sabbath millennium), God will kindle the lake of fire to purify the wicked. The believers will simply receive "few stripes" or "many stripes," up to 40, according to Bible law (Deut. 25:1-3). God prohibits beatings of more than 40 stripes. Why? 1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that [the judges] may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked. 2 And it shall be, if the wicked man [be] worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number. 3 Forty stripes he may give him, [and] not exceed: lest, [if] he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee. God's judgments are carefully measured in order to prevent us from being "degraded." They correct us, rather than destroy us. This is true for both believers and unbelievers, for it is the same law that is used for all lawbreakers. Paul says in 1 Timothy 1:17:17 Now to the King eternal [ton aionion, "of the ages"], immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever [aionas ton aionon, "ages of the ages"]. Amen.The way this verse is usually translated leads most people to believe that Paul was informing us of God's "eternal" existence. God is, of course, "eternal." No one disputes that, for it is always assumed. But Paul is bringing out another aspect of God's character and position. He is the "King of the Ages" and shall rule in the final glorious ages of the earth. It says that He shall reign "for the Ages of the Ages."The Greek phrase (see above) is aionas ton aionos. The word, ton, means "of-the." It NEVER means "and." Dr. Young translates the above verse correctly and literally:17 And to the King of the Ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory-to the ages of the ages! Amen.If we stop and think about it, the phrase "ever and ever" really makes no sense, because it implies that it is longer than a mere "ever."Logabe

 

[Copper25]

QUOTE
If we stop and think about it, the phrase "ever and ever" really makes no sense, because it implies that it is longer than a mere "ever."
Hebrew Emphasis is done with repetition

 

[Copper25]

example my brother,Matthew 7 21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.These people saying "Lord, Lord" implies that these people thought for a long duration of time that they knew the Lord Jesus and had a relationship with Him, but as we see, they didn'tRevelation 149) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.the emphasis is that it is going to be everlasting, nothing is going to stop itPsalm 103:17) But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's childrenemphasis on the duration which God's mercy is toward them that fear him

 

[logabe]

QUOTE (Copper25 @ Apr 19 2009, 02:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72778
example my brother,Matthew 7 21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.QUOTE
These people saying "Lord, Lord" implies that these people thought for a long duration of time that they knew the Lord Jesus and had a relationship with Him, but as we see, they didn't
Revelation 149) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.the emphasis is that it is going to be everlasting, nothing is going to stop itPsalm 103:17) But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's childrenemphasis on the duration which God's mercy is toward them that fear himPaul mentions in 1 Corinthians 3:15.11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire. I do not believe that this fire is literal. They will, however, be judged according to God's fiery law, which in this case is up to 40 stripes. Christians in whom Jesus Christ is laid as a foundation, but who built upon that Foundation with wood, hay, and stubble, will suffer loss. They will be held accountable for their works, the things they built upon their foundation of faith in Jesus Christ. Their WORKS and their flawed CHARACTER will be tried by fire and will be burned. This will not destroy them, but will purify them by chastisement and make them fit for the Kingdom of God. The unbelievers themselves, however, will be “thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14 and 15). The question is whether or not this is a literal fire that differs from the other fire in which certain believers are tried.Hebrews 12:6 says:6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.If anyone would rather go the easier route or if any would envy the wicked who seem to have it all, keep in mind that this is the mark of an illegitimate son, not a true son of God (Hebrews 12:8).His sons have a great task ahead of ruling over cities, regions, and nations. He will give these jobs to those who are called. And those He calls, He also trains in order to qualify them for rulership. And so He comes to purge His people. He sits as a refiner of silver and of gold. He comes as the Sun of righteousness to heal us inwardly of the pollution of the world. He comes as a fire to try our faith as gold (1 Peter 1:7). This is the true baptism of fire, which He has already kindled upon the earth.Logabe

 

[Copper25]

QUOTE
Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 3:15.11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire. I do not believe that this fire is literal. They will, however, be judged according to God's fiery law, which in this case is up to 40 stripes. Christians in whom Jesus Christ is laid as a foundation, but who built upon that Foundation with wood, hay, and stubble, will suffer loss. They will be held accountable for their works, the things they built upon their foundation of faith in Jesus Christ. Their WORKS and their flawed CHARACTER will be tried by fire and will be burned. This will not destroy them, but will purify them by chastisement and make them fit for the Kingdom of God.
The fire that is trying the works of believers in the judgment seat of Christ is the eye of the LordRevelation 19:12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.He sees and knows our motives, our think, behind every work or deed that we do The chaistisement part is quite off because, this is talking about at the judgment seat of Christ. By this time a person did what they did. So what would a believer need to be corrected from? Another thing to note is that all the believers will be in their glorified state, not a corruptible state. This judgment takes place after our earthly lives, not during them. And for us believers it will Only before reward and not punishment of any such. QUOTE
The unbelievers themselves, however, will be “thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14 and 15). The question is whether or not this is a literal fire that differs from the other fire in which certain believers are tried.
The unbelievers are already judged before they are thrown in the lake of fire. God has laid down the judgment and eternal destruction is the verdict for all those whose names were not written in the book of life.The lake of fire simply put, is God's pure wrath put upon them forever, not meant to shape them our build them, nay, but rather to bring perpetual wrath upon them, and yes it is a literal lake of fire that they are thrown into forever.QUOTE
Hebrews 12:6 says:6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.If anyone would rather go the easier route or if any would envy the wicked who seem to have it all, keep in mind that this is the mark of an illegitimate son, not a true son of God (Hebrews 12:8).
That is true indeed and those who are not corrected by God when they go astray are plainly not His.There is a reason why we are referred to as sheeppsalm 23:4) Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.God may have to correct us with the loving rod of discipline at timesQUOTE
His sons have a great task ahead of ruling over cities, regions, and nations. He will give these jobs to those who are called. And those He calls, He also trains in order to qualify them for rulership. And so He comes to purge His people. He sits as a refiner of silver and of gold. He comes as the Sun of righteousness to heal us inwardly of the pollution of the world. He comes as a fire to try our faith as gold (1 Peter 1:7). This is the true baptism of fire, which He has already kindled upon the earth.
Well put

 

[Polar]

I know that I am new here, but it seems that some of you here are more concerned with winning the argument than listening and possibly learning. "Matthew 2541 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."-- Tell me where the gray area is in that statement. Don't say, "but the ancient Greek implies" or "the word "everlasting" in this particular content actually means" etc. If you are going to do that, at least have the decency to say "My opinion is that" beforehand. It seems amazing to me that so many people here are unwilling to even entertain the thought that they could be incorrect or have the wrong "interpretation" of something. I have been wrong (or 'incorrect' or 'mistaken' or 'misguided') on a number of occasions which is why I come to a place like this...to learn from discussion. But there appears to be no discussion in threads like this. Only efforts to prove the other person wrong.Save the distracting multi-colored decorative lettering that make the scripture quotes difficult to read...many of which have little in common with the topic at hand anyway...and simply explain how a scripture like in Matt 25 can not be taken at face value.It is the "smoke of their torment" that lasts forever and not the torment itself? Someone here actually tried to make that argument? I am pretty sure some things aren't meant to s-t-r-e-e-e-e-e-t-c-h that far.Satan must sometimes get a good chuckle from some of these discussions, I think.

 

[HammerStone]

QUOTE
-- Tell me where the gray area is in that statement. Don't say, "but the ancient Greek implies" or "the word "everlasting" in this particular content actually means" etc. If you are going to do that, at least have the decency to say "My opinion is that" beforehand.
Hey, you are right here, there is no grey area because the Father is the fire!QUOTE
Deuteronomy 4:24For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
QUOTE
Deuteronomy 9:23Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
QUOTE
Hebrews 12:29For our God is a consuming fire.
I always find is asserting that this phrase, consuming fire, shows up exactly three times in the Word. This fire inspires for his children, but those not of this children will be burned up. That's why the rudiments (elements of II Peter 3:12) melt away. This is the same power glimpsed in the history of Elijah when the captains sent to get him were devoured by fire -- the same fire commanded by the two witnesses.QUOTE
II Peter 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
QUOTE
II Peter 3:12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Two witnesses are given here to assert this as well.

 

[logabe]

QUOTE (Polar @ Apr 25 2009, 09:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72999
I know that I am new here, but it seems that some of you here are more concerned with winning the argument than listening and possibly learning. QUOTE
"Matthew 2541 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Let's take a look @ these two scriptures...yes, let's get thetrue translation so we can understand them properly.41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; 46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' I must say that it is a big difference between King James'translation and the one above. The sons of God are given the ability to not only quicken the dead but to bring them into "life" through a process of judgments.In essence, in the ages to come the saint's will be judging theworld and teaching the unbeliever the ways of the Lord.Isa. 2:3-4 says,3 Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 He shall judge between the nations, And rebuke many people; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore. "For the Father loveth the Son(s), and showeth Him all things Himself doeth: and He will show him greater works than these that ye (sons) may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son (many membered now) quickeneth whom He will. For the Father judgeth no man but hath committed all judgment unto the Son (know ye not that the Saints shall judge the world (1Cor 6:2 ~ John 5:20-22). "Marvel not at this. For the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves (both believers and unbelievers) shall hear His voice (Word), and shall come forth, they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of judgment (John 5:28-29)." Note: KJV. Incorrectly reads "resurrection of damnation." See Strong’s concordance # 2920.. "krisis" literally a "crisis" condition. Notice that the English words "Cross" and "Crucial" are derived from this Greek root word.Gods' judgment is that which brings restoration, not devastation. Any fool can destroy a life, and any devil can put forth a finger of accusation, but it takes wisdom to know how to put a life back into perfect order after it has been completely devastated. God is a builder not a destroyer. His Sons will accomplish the task of resurrecting the "dead" and bringing them to God through the Gospel and judgments according to every man's works. The following passage is one which seems to be avoided and possibly somewhat misaligned by some. A bruised reed shall He not break, and a smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory" Mat 12:20 The Greek word "krisis" is translated once again "judgment." This points to the fact that God sends forth a crisis or series of judgments into a persons life such as a "smoking flax" condition. This is where one is angry over circumstances which are usually a result of his own doing. A true Son of God knows better than to "water down" this condition with sympathy, or quite literally "quench" the spirit of burning, thus interrupting the "process" which is designed to bring forth victory over sin! Others are "bruised reeds." The "bruised reed" is one whom God has brought to a breaking point. In any case Gods' judgments are designed to bring forth victory in our lives. As Isa 42:3 says, "Judgment unto truth," a crisis condition which causes us to turn to God and to know the truth, even the "Truth" which makes us free (John 8:32). Logabe-- Tell me where the gray area is in that statement. Don't say, "but the ancient Greek implies" or "the word "everlasting" in this particular content actually means" etc. If you are going to do that, at least have the decency to say "My opinion is that" beforehand. It seems amazing to me that so many people here are unwilling to even entertain the thought that they could be incorrect or have the wrong "interpretation" of something. I have been wrong (or 'incorrect' or 'mistaken' or 'misguided') on a number of occasions which is why I come to a place like this...to learn from discussion. But there appears to be no discussion in threads like this. Only efforts to prove the other person wrong.Save the distracting multi-colored decorative lettering that make the scripture quotes difficult to read...many of which have little in common with the topic at hand anyway...and simply explain how a scripture like in Matt 25 can not be taken at face value.It is the "smoke of their torment" that lasts forever and not the torment itself? Someone here actually tried to make that argument? I am pretty sure some things aren't meant to s-t-r-e-e-e-e-e-t-c-h that far.Satan must sometimes get a good chuckle from some of these discussions, I think.

 

[logabe]

QUOTE (logabe @ Apr 26 2009, 08:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73015
Let's take a look @ these two scriptures...yes, let's get thetrue translation so we can understand them properly.41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; 46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' I must say that it is a big difference between King James'translation and the one above. The sons of God are given the ability to not only quicken the dead but to bring them into "life" through a process of judgments.In essence, in the ages to come the saint's will be judging theworld and teaching the unbeliever the ways of the Lord.Isa. 2:3-4 says,3 Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 He shall judge between the nations, And rebuke many people; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore. "For the Father loveth the Son(s), and showeth Him all things Himself doeth: and He will show him greater works than these that ye (sons) may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son (many membered now) quickeneth whom He will. For the Father judgeth no man but hath committed all judgment unto the Son (know ye not that the Saints shall judge the world (1Cor 6:2 ~ John 5:20-22). "Marvel not at this. For the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves (both believers and unbelievers) shall hear His voice (Word), and shall come forth, they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of judgment (John 5:28-29)." Note: KJV. Incorrectly reads "resurrection of damnation." See Strong’s concordance # 2920.. "krisis" literally a "crisis" condition. Notice that the English words "Cross" and "Crucial" are derived from this Greek root word.Gods' judgment is that which brings restoration, not devastation. Any fool can destroy a life, and any devil can put forth a finger of accusation, but it takes wisdom to know how to put a life back into perfect order after it has been completely devastated. God is a builder not a destroyer. His Sons will accomplish the task of resurrecting the "dead" and bringing them to God through the Gospel and judgments according to every man's works. The following passage is one which seems to be avoided and possibly somewhat misaligned by some. A bruised reed shall He not break, and a smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory" Mat 12:20 The Greek word "krisis" is translated once again "judgment." This points to the fact that God sends forth a crisis or series of judgments into a persons life such as a "smoking flax" condition. This is where one is angry over circumstances which are usually a result of his own doing. A true Son of God knows better than to "water down" this condition with sympathy, or quite literally "quench" the spirit of burning, thus interrupting the "process" which is designed to bring forth victory over sin! Others are "bruised reeds." The "bruised reed" is one whom God has brought to a breaking point. In any case Gods' judgments are designed to bring forth victory in our lives. As Isa 42:3 says, "Judgment unto truth," a crisis condition which causes us to turn to God and to know the truth, even the "Truth" which makes us free (John 8:32). Logabe-- Tell me where the gray area is in that statement. Don't say, "but the ancient Greek implies" or "the word "everlasting" in this particular content actually means" etc. If you are going to do that, at least have the decency to say "My opinion is that" beforehand. It seems amazing to me that so many people here are unwilling to even entertain the thought that they could be incorrect or have the wrong "interpretation" of something. I have been wrong (or 'incorrect' or 'mistaken' or 'misguided') on a number of occasions which is why I come to a place like this...to learn from discussion. But there appears to be no discussion in threads like this. Only efforts to prove the other person wrong.Save the distracting multi-colored decorative lettering that make the scripture quotes difficult to read...many of which have little in common with the topic at hand anyway...and simply explain how a scripture like in Matt 25 can not be taken at face value.It is the "smoke of their torment" that lasts forever and not the torment itself? Someone here actually tried to make that argument? I am pretty sure some things aren't meant to s-t-r-e-e-e-e-e-t-c-h that far.QUOTE
Satan must sometimes get a good chuckle from some of these discussions, I think.
What a true statement...man's interpretation gives him all his power to deceiveand manipulate the simple minded. In essence, man is deceiving himself byentertaining thoughts derived by his carnal mind.Logabe

 

[Martin W.]

This whole thread is uglier than an illegal dog fight. I would not be surprised if the enemy workers in the invisible realm are placing side bets on the contenders. This is the nicest way I can say it , sorry. However there are a couple of good points raised by a couple of posters. Thank you.Personally I think each soul has been created eternal. Some to everlasting life , some to everlasting punishment. I think it applies to Satan , Holy Angels , and fallen angels as well. Scriptures seem to indicate it.If there is no eternal punishment , what is there to fear? What are we being saved from? If the unsaved merely sleep with no awareness then why did Jesus not say just say so instead of his hell fire preaching and the fear it instills.For the sake of my unsaved friends and family it would be my hearts desire that they not experience eternal punishment. Nothing could make me happier. Yet I have not been convinced by scripture. Quite the opposite.If someone can convince me differently I am all ears. Use your own words backed up by your understanding of scripture.To cut and paste half the bible does not convince me. It only shows expertise in cutting and pasting. To cut and paste scripture totally out of contest on the subject does not convince me. It only proves a lack of systematic theology. Acting like dogs in a dog fight is just plain ugly. Certainly not a bible study.I am all ears.Convince me punishment is not eternal and I will be forever gratefull.Martin W.

 

[logabe]

QUOTE (Martin W. @ May 2 2009, 12:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73220
This whole thread is uglier than an illegal dog fight. I would not be surprised if the enemy workers in the invisible realm are placing side bets on the contenders. This is the nicest way I can say it , sorry. However there are a couple of good points raised by a couple of posters. Thank you.Personally I think each soul has been created eternal. Some to everlasting life , some to everlasting punishment. I think it applies to Satan , Holy Angels , and fallen angels as well. Scriptures seem to indicate it.If there is no eternal punishment , what is there to fear? What are we being saved from? If the unsaved merely sleep with no awareness then why did Jesus not say just say so instead of his hell fire preaching and the fear it instills.For the sake of my unsaved friends and family it would be my hearts desire that they not experience eternal punishment. Nothing could make me happier. Yet I have not been convinced by scripture. Quite the opposite.If someone can convince me differently I am all ears. Use your own words backed up by your understanding of scripture.To cut and paste half the bible does not convince me. It only shows expertise in cutting and pasting. To cut and paste scripture totally out of contest on the subject does not convince me. It only proves a lack of systematic theology. Acting like dogs in a dog fight is just plain ugly. Certainly not a bible study.I am all ears.QUOTE
Convince me punishment is not eternal and I will be forever gratefull.
Martin W.Martin...I'm not fighting with any person but I am exposing the beast naturethat has so many good people in bondage. In 1st Cor. 15:32,32 if after the manner of a man with wild beasts I fought in Ephesus, what the advantage to me if the dead do not rise? let us eat and drink, for to-morrow we die! Paul was @ Ephesus and he fought with wild beasts...lions, bears, and tigers. No,it was men with beast natures...that were disputing over the resurrection. In essence,I have to separate the man or woman from the fallen nature that has them in blindness.I can't take it personal if someone attacks me over scripture. Do you think these people liked what Paul was saying about the resurrection? No way! They wantedto kill him. Now, let's move on to eternal punishment. I'm not going to use scripture becauseI think reasoning with you will be more effective. I have a question...do you havechildren? If you do, I would like to ask another question.If your child was a pretty good person and he/she did try to obey your rules but,he/she messed up and didn't repent for whatever...and he/she were killed in a car wreck, do you think he/she deserves to be punished for eternity because they mighthave been angry with you before the accident and never repented.Hey, he/she didn't repent...don't they deserve to go to hell fire for eternity. He/shehad a free will but did not use it. Sorry, it's over...God says, you are going to eternalpunishment for being mad and never repenting of it and you will not get out becauseI warned you and gave you a free will. Another question.We know what God will do to these people but what would you do Martin? Now, thisis your child...I want you to think long and hard about it and then, judge it. Come onMartin, let's reason together.Logabe

 

[Christina]

QUOTE (TallMan @ Apr 18 2009, 11:56 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72747
"When the adjective aionios meaning ‘everlasting’ is used in Greek with nouns of action it has reference to the result of the action, not the process. Thus the phrase ‘everlasting punishment’ is comparable to ‘everlasting redemption’ and ‘everlasting salvation,’ both Scriptural phrases. No one supposes that we are being redeemed or being saved forever. We were redeemed and saved once for all by Christ with eternal results. In the same way the lost will not be passing through a process of punishment for ever but will be punished once and for all with eternal results. On the other hand the noun ‘life’ is not a noun of action, but a noun expressing a state. Thus the life itself is eternal."Quoted here.
Excellent Tallman ..... Just as the bible tells us Sodom and Gomorah will burn forever/enternity (obviously it isnt still burning) a one time punishment that is everlasting

 

[TallMan]

QUOTE (Martin W. @ May 2 2009, 06:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73220
Personally I think each soul has been created eternal. Some to everlasting life , some to everlasting punishment.
1 Tim 6:16 says only God/Jesus has immortality, Romans 2:7 says how some people obtain immortality by pleasing God.fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (M't:10:28)“destroy” = same word as “perish” meaning: wander away, that is lose oneself; by implication to perish (causatively, destroy)"this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:53)What is the mortal that puts on immortality?"the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4, 20)Eternnal torment doctrine teaches: the soul that sinneth it shall NOT dieThe word "die" is muwth in hebrew: A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill.QUOTE (Martin W. @ May 2 2009, 06:34 AM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=73220][/url]
If the unsaved merely sleep with no awareness then why did Jesus not say just say so instead of his hell fire preaching and the fear it instills.
But they don't, they miss out on:-all the love joy & peace in this lifeall the amazing things that will happen in the Milleniumthey will be raised to judgement which will result in weeping and gnashing of teeth, then annihiliation.QUOTE (Martin W. @ May 2 2009, 06:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73220
For the sake of my unsaved friends and family it would be my hearts desire that they not experience eternal punishment. Nothing could make me happier. Yet I have not been convinced by scripture. Quite the opposite.
Given the points that have been made, which scripture convinces you of the opposite?

 

[logabe]

QUOTE (Martin W. @ May 2 2009, 12:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73220
QUOTE
This whole thread is uglier than an illegal dog fight. I would not be surprised if the enemy workers in the invisible realm are placing side bets on the contenders. This is the nicest way I can say it , sorry. However there are a couple of good points raised by a couple of posters. Thank you.
Personally I think each soul has been created eternal. Some to everlasting life , some to everlasting punishment. I think it applies to Satan , Holy Angels , and fallen angels as well. Scriptures seem to indicate it.If there is no eternal punishment , what is there to fear? What are we being saved from? If the unsaved merely sleep with no awareness then why did Jesus not say just say so instead of his hell fire preaching and the fear it instills.For the sake of my unsaved friends and family it would be my hearts desire that they not experience eternal punishment. Nothing could make me happier. Yet I have not been convinced by scripture. Quite the opposite.If someone can convince me differently I am all ears. Use your own words backed up by your understanding of scripture.To cut and paste half the bible does not convince me. It only shows expertise in cutting and pasting. To cut and paste scripture totally out of contest on the subject does not convince me. It only proves a lack of systematic theology. Acting like dogs in a dog fight is just plain ugly. Certainly not a bible study.I am all ears.Convince me punishment is not eternal and I will be forever gratefull.Martin W.Martin, the reason for the dog fights is because of church traditions.I believe that God will be ALL IN ALL some day. That simply meansthat the people who disagree today will change their minds @ the Great White Throne.Fortunately for us, death does not end all opportunity for justification, although most Christians have been taught otherwise. I too was told this as a child. Heb. 9:27 was quoted often: 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:I was told that this means there is no more opportunity for justification once men come into judgment at the Great White Throne. But Paul does not say this. He merely tells us here that after death, one must come into judgment. Yes, of course. I agree with Paul completely. I also agree with Paul that “every knee will bow” in that day. I agree with Paul that every tongue will confess Jesus Christ in that day. I even agree with Paul's statement in 1 Cor. 12:3, 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. That means when every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord, it will be done by the Holy Spirit, not by putting a knife to their throats.This will be the time of their Second Passover. It will be their second opportunity to be justified—and all will be justified by faith at that time. They will all repent at that time. There will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12), not because they are being tortured, but because they will regret not being justified by faith earlier. But look at the law of the Second Passover and see how it prophesies of that time. In Numbers 9:6-11 there were some men who had buried someone just before the Passover. They were unable to keep the Passover because they were unclean, having touched a dead body. Yet God had commanded them to keep the Passover. What were they to do? So they came to Moses, who prayed for revelation to know how to resolve this difficulty. Notice that it does not only say, “they MAY observe it.” It says, “ they SHALL observe it.” I see this as a prophecy of all those standing before God at the Great White Throne. “They SHALL observe it,” because “every knee will bow” and every tongue shall confess Christ.The idea that there is no second opportunity to be justified by faith is a Church tradition unsupported by Scripture. Such a teaching puts awaythe divine law of the Second Passover. Church traditions are stingy when it comes to the salvation of the world. God's law is not. Logabe

 

[logabe]

QUOTE (logabe @ May 3 2009, 07:10 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73253
Personally I think each soul has been created eternal. Some to everlasting life , some to everlasting punishment. I think it applies to Satan , Holy Angels , and fallen angels as well. Scriptures seem to indicate it.If there is no eternal punishment , what is there to fear? What are we being saved from? If the unsaved merely sleep with no awareness then why did Jesus not say just say so instead of his hell fire preaching and the fear it instills.For the sake of my unsaved friends and family it would be my hearts desire that they not experience eternal punishment. Nothing could make me happier. Yet I have not been convinced by scripture. Quite the opposite.If someone can convince me differently I am all ears. Use your own words backed up by your understanding of scripture.To cut and paste half the bible does not convince me. It only shows expertise in cutting and pasting. To cut and paste scripture totally out of contest on the subject does not convince me. It only proves a lack of systematic theology. Acting like dogs in a dog fight is just plain ugly. Certainly not a bible study.I am all ears.Convince me punishment is not eternal and I will be forever gratefull.Martin W.Martin, the reason for the dog fights is because of church traditions.I believe that God will be ALL IN ALL some day. That simply meansthat the people who disagree today will change their minds @ the Great White Throne.Fortunately for us, death does not end all opportunity for justification, although most Christians have been taught otherwise. I too was told this as a child. Heb. 9:27 was quoted often: 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:I was told that this means there is no more opportunity for justification once men come into judgment at the Great White Throne. But Paul does not say this. He merely tells us here that after death, one must come into judgment. Yes, of course. I agree with Paul completely. I also agree with Paul that “every knee will bow” in that day. I agree with Paul that every tongue will confess Jesus Christ in that day. I even agree with Paul's statement in 1 Cor. 12:3, 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. That means when every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord, it will be done by the Holy Spirit, not by putting a knife to their throats.This will be the time of their Second Passover. It will be their second opportunity to be justified—and all will be justified by faith at that time. They will all repent at that time. There will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12), not because they are being tortured, but because they will regret not being justified by faith earlier. But look at the law of the Second Passover and see how it prophesies of that time. In Numbers 9:6-11 there were some men who had buried someone just before the Passover. They were unable to keep the Passover because they were unclean, having touched a dead body. Yet God had commanded them to keep the Passover. What were they to do? So they came to Moses, who prayed for revelation to know how to resolve this difficulty. Notice that it does not only say, “they MAY observe it.” It says, “ they SHALL observe it.” I see this as a prophecy of all those standing before God at the Great White Throne. “They SHALL observe it,” because “every knee will bow” and every tongue shall confess Christ.The idea that there is no second opportunity to be justified by faith is a Church tradition unsupported by Scripture. Such a teaching puts awaythe divine law of the Second Passover. Church traditions are stingy when it comes to the salvation of the world. God's law is not. Logabe

 

[Polar]

"The Second Death occurs after the Millennium Reign and Satan to deceive the nations one more time, before the Great White Throne Judgment begins... After this Judgment, those who are in the Lake of Fire will die, cease to exist, and no longer will be remembered by anyone. And Satan will also be turned to ashes. (Ezekiel 28:18)" -- Jordan-- Jordan, the scripture you quote (Ez.28:18) is taken out of context. If you read the entire 28th chapter of Ezekial you will see it has nothing to do with what you are implying. I found a number of other scriptures you posted where, if you actually read them in context, do not support the point you are trying to make. "Depart from me you cursed ones, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."- "Everlasting" fire but a quick burn up and you're dead. Umm....no.

 

[jodycour]

Hey Wakka, It's been awhile I see your still here, Praise God!

QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 2 2009, 03:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71657
Ok, bring your Scripture to prove your statement, and then explain what the following Scripture say.Revelation 14:9-11 (New King James Version)9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, ?If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.?Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.Luke 13:3, 5 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Your scriptures are not saying the soul will be tormented or burned forever. It is saying their smoke is tormented. They will be taught at the Millennium Reign, but they are without Christ, because Christ = Sabbath = Rest. He is our Rest. But they will be great peace as no one will bring their tradition of men with them.The Second Death occurs after the Millennium Reign and Satan to deceive the nations one more time, before the Great White Throne Judgment begins... After this Judgment, those who are in the Lake of Fire will die, cease to exist, and no longer will be remembered by anyone. And Satan will also be turned to ashes. (Ezekiel 28:18)
Im pretty sure that in Hebrew death also means an eternal separation from God. God turning His back to the people in hell, the very thought of not feeling love and peace ever again, to be trapped in torment and know that no matter what you say or do will ever reach God's ears is torment enough. That very moment you are excommunicated from God is the death.

 

[Faithful]

Does anyone have any clear view of whether the majority of souls will be tormented for ever?

Genesis 2:7.And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.Jesus saying, "fear not! those who kill the body but rather fear God who having killed the body has the power to cast the soul into hell."Revelation 14:9-11. 9.And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10.The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11.And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark I see the discussion was in depth and I have not had time to read through. Please forgive me if I repeat.The truth shows that the soul does continue after death and that it is aware of the lake of fire and also the surroundings in hell.So the torment is for ever and ever.Faithful.

 

[Christina]

Genesis 2:7.And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.Jesus saying, "fear not! those who kill the body but rather fear God who having killed the body has the power to cast the soul into hell."Revelation 14:9-11. 9.And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10.The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11.And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark I see the discussion was in depth and I have not had time to read through. Please forgive me if I repeat.The truth shows that the soul does continue after death and that it is aware of the lake of fire and also the surroundings in hell.So the torment is for ever and ever.Faithful.

except for the fact that its the smoke that rises forever and ever ...and in the New heaven and new earth death and hell are destroyed and there is no night Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Second Death the soul dies hell and death die that is cease to exist...Then what happens Revelation 21 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone