Explaining the Trinity

[Helen]

Isn't it better to "ignore" than to censor?

Takes one to know one Dave...you are the legalist here...I am learning from you!!

 

[Dave L]

Takes one to know one Dave...you are the legalist here...I am learning from you!!

Freedom of speech is what makes this site better than most. Let's not ruin it by forcing personal bias on all.

 

[farouk]

Freedom of speech is what makes this site better than most. Let's not ruin it by forcing personal bias on all.

John 8.24 is very relevant.

 

[Helen]

Freedom of speech is what makes this site better than most. Let's not ruin it by forcing personal bias on all.

...now that is funny coming from you.

....

 

[Dave L]

...now that is funny coming from you.

....View attachment 6146

Examples? It is slander otherwise.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Jesus Christ (John 14:15)

"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me." Jesus Christ (John 14:23-24)

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." Jesus Christ (John 12:48)

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter]. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and [yet] it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell - and great was its fall." Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:21-27)

God incarnate, Jesus Christ, expresses the love, authority, importance, relevance, and impact of Lord Jesus' words!

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jesus Christ (John 3:3)

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." Jesus Christ (John 3:5-8)

God incarnate, Jesus Christ, expresses that a person MUST be born of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God!

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." Jesus Christ (John 6:29)

And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
When the disciples heard [this], they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
(Matthew 19:23-26)

God incarnate, Jesus Christ, expresses a person faith/belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent is a work of God!

"I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged." Jesus Christ (John 16:7-11)

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." Jesus Christ (John 14:16-18)

God incarnate, Jesus Christ, expresses the ourpouring of God's Holy Spirit in us believers!

"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." Jesus Christ (John 3:21)

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn [bushes] nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits." Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:15-20)

God incarnate, Jesus Christ, expresses that we believers exhibit fruit of the Spirit of God (not fruit of man), the fruit is consistent with the words of Lord Jesus the Anointed!

Jane_Doe22, a person is saved by grace through faith/belief, and the very belief/faith is a gift, a work of God not of the person (Ephesians 2:8-9, John 6:29). The Spirit of God reveals the nature of God to the person whom God gives faith/belief.

Lord Jesus Christ expresses
A) "He" for the Father (John 14:16)
B) "He" for the Holy Spirit (John 16:8)
C) "Me" for the Son (John 14:5)

Lord Jesus decisively declared "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30); therefore, three eternal persons are revealed in One Holy God! If a person does not believe this, then the person does not believe the words of Lord Jesus, and that has severe consequences. It is not a theology test, and that is a trite representation - at best. On the other hand, fruit exhibits who is a believer, and that which comes out of the mouth reveals that which is in the heart.

And none of that says we are saved by passing theology test.

 

[Dave L]

And none of that says we are saved by passing theology test.

But if you do not know and love the truth, you do not know and love Christ.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

But if they are saved they will know the truth

Know eventually. Not necessarily during this life, and such has no baring on their salvation.

 

[Dave L]

Know eventually. Not necessarily during this life, and such has no baring on their salvation.

You cannot trust in a false Christ and know his voice which he assures is the case with his people.

 

[Helen]

But if you do not know and love the truth, you do not know and love Christ.

Codswallop.
So, what YOU believe and only HOW you believe...is 'the truth.'

This site is getting crazier and crazier....

 

[Dave L]

Codswallop.
So, what YOU believe and only HOW you believe...is truth.

I'm in perfect alignment with historic Christianity and Christendom as a whole. If you knew the bible, you would agree with them too.

 

[Helen]

If you knew the bible,

And WHAT kind of comment is that!!

What has happened to you Dave, all you ever do now is put down everyone who does not see things as you do.

If you had a vestige of a shepherds heart you would be gentle and want the sheep to keep up along the path that we are all on.

Most of God people are doing the best they can with the light and understanding that they have thus far.
But you, you just want to kick them off the path as, after all, no one other than you, has a clue about anything...

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You cannot trust in a false Christ and know his voice which he assures is the case with his people.

It is not required for a child of God to be able to correctly rattle off a bunch of academic facts about their Father. Academic knowledge is not what defines a parent-child relationship, and frankly most of the time kids don't remotely academically understand their parents. Rather a parent-child bond is defined by love and embracing each other.

 

[Dave L]

And WHAT kind of comment is that!!

What has happened to you Dave, all you ever do now is put down everyone who does not see things as you do.

If you had a vestige of a shepherds heart you would be gentle and want the sheep to keep up along the path that we are all on.

Most of God people are doing the best they can with the light and understanding that they have thus far.
But you, you just want to kick them off the path as, after all, no one other than you, has a clue about anything...

Truth does not change. History holds the historic Christian view of the trinity in scripture repeated many times over.

 

[Dave L]

It is not required for a child of God to be able to correctly rattle off a bunch of academic facts about their Father. Academic knowledge is not what defines a parent-child relationship, and frankly most of the time kids don't remotely academically understand their parents. Rather a parent-child bond is defined by love and embracing each other.

But they will recognize Christ's word when they hear it.

 

[APAK]

1. There is only one God (e.g., Rom. 3:30)

2. The Father is God (e.g., John 6:27)

3. Jesus is God (e.g., John 20:28; Rom. 9:5; 2 Peter 1:1)

4. The Holy Spirit is God (e.g., Acts 5:3–5)

5. These Three are distinct persons (e.g., John 14:16–17)

On the Mount of tranfiguration

“While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said: This is My beloved Son. I take delight in Him. Listen to Him! When the disciples heard it, they fell facedown and were terrified. Then Jesus came up, touched them, and said, “Get up; don’t be afraid.”” (Matthew 17:5–7) (HCSB)

“For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.” (2 Peter 1:16–18) (KJV 1900)

Jesus' Baptism

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16–17) (KJV 1900)

Stephen's death

“But Stephen, filled by the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven. He saw God’s glory, with Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”” (Acts 7:55–56) (HCSB)

Well Dave let me respond say to your 2 Peter 1:1 in your post and I'll add verse 2, for completeness.

The origin of divine righteousness and the grace for the knowledge of God, of course originates from God Almighty himself; and is given to Jesus Christ to share. This is scriptural. This is what the writer meant when he penned verse 1 and 2. Jesus never knew of these attributes before his Father gave them to him. Jesus is not God and the writer knew this very well!

Without God, Jesus would not have either righteousness or peace or the knowledge of his Father. This is also scriptural. And then what would this say about us, if our Lord Jesus never received these things? Dead in the water I would think...

Dave, from your post here, apparently you do believe that God is the Father of Jesus Christ. And apparently, you also you believe that the Holy Spirit is also God. We differ drastically on two key areas, however.

You say Jesus is also God, the Almighty. You now have made two (G)gods in your doctrine. I would never agree with you on that point, it is a man-made and a corrupting concept.

And secondly, you believe that when you say God Almighty is the Father, he is also the Holy Spirit, and they are two personalities of the same God Almighty. You now have two (G)gods in your doctrine. The Father is one role of God Almighty, and his Spirit is his composition and power. Why make two different personas of the role and composition of God Almighty? Why? Why the confusion?

Again, I would never agree to this non-scriptural doctrine.

A person or persona is the essence of the being and the 'I am' of it/him or her. There is no getting around it. Three personalities of (G)god are 3 distinct (G)gods every time. If you say they are just 3 personalities of the same God Almighty, then you might even have 4 (G) gods.

There is only one person or persona for God, ONLY ONE. He is YHWH, God Almighty, the Father of Jesus Christ and he comprises of Spirit or Holy Spirit – He is ONLY one personality or presence. There is no extra Spirit doing the work or impersonating YHWH. That is pure fiction. It stems from the ignorance of early pagan writers of Greek and Roman philosophical backgrounds.

Then of course there is Christ who was created by his Father God, YHWH, using his Spirit (ONLY one personality here, not two).

A role of God Almighty, the composition of God Almighty and the created Son of God Almighty can never be 3 distinct personalities of himself. That is pure rubbish. Do you know what a role is, what a composition is, what a created being is? They are NOT personalities of God Almighty by any stretch of the imagination.

Your Trinity doctrine is a first cousin to both Modalism and Oneness that are also corrupt doctrine.

So, when are you going to actually read scripture for real meaning without wearing your Trinity lenses? You might see a thing or two that have been hiding in plain sight.

Can you write a true scripture-derived, paragraph-size commentary of substance on any of your verses cited in your post?

That is typical of any Trinitarian I have encountered. Short on scripture context and meaning and large of cherry-picking and slapping down Chapter and verse without qualification.


Bless you,

APAK

 

[Dave L]

Well Dave let me respond say to your 2 Peter 1:1 in your post and I'll add verse 2, for completeness.

The origin of divine righteousness and the grace for the knowledge of God, of course originates from God Almighty himself; and is given to Jesus Christ to share. This is scriptural. This is what the writer meant when he penned verse 1 and 2. Jesus never knew of these attributes before his Father gave them to him. Jesus is not God and the writer knew this very well!

Without God, Jesus would not have either righteousness or peace or the knowledge of his Father. This is also scriptural. And then what would this say about us, if our Lord Jesus never received these things? Dead in the water I would think...

Dave, from your post here, apparently you do believe that God is the Father of Jesus Christ. And apparently, you also you believe that the Holy Spirit is also God. We differ drastically on two key areas, however.

You say Jesus is also God, the Almighty. You now have made two (G)gods in your doctrine. I would never agree with you on that point, it is a man-made and a corrupting concept.

And secondly, you believe that when you say God Almighty is the Father, he is also the Holy Spirit, and they are two personalities of the same God Almighty. You now have two (G)gods in your doctrine. The Father is one role of God Almighty, and his Spirit is his composition and power. Why make two different personas of the role and composition of God Almighty? Why? Why the confusion?

Again, I would never agree to this non-scriptural doctrine.

A person or persona is the essence of the being and the 'I am' of it/him or her. There is no getting around it. Three personalities of (G)god are 3 distinct (G)gods every time. If you say they are just 3 personalities of the same God Almighty, then you might even have 4 (G) gods.

There is only one person or persona for God, ONLY ONE. He is YHWH, God Almighty, the Father of Jesus Christ and he comprises of Spirit or Holy Spirit – He is ONLY one personality or presence. There is no extra Spirit doing the work or impersonating YHWH. That is pure fiction. It stems from the ignorance of early pagan writers of Greek and Roman philosophical backgrounds.

Then of course there is Christ who was created by his Father God, YHWH, using his Spirit (ONLY one personality here, not two).

A role of God Almighty, the composition of God Almighty and the created Son of God Almighty can never be 3 distinct personalities of himself. That is pure rubbish. Do you know what a role is, what a composition is, what a created being is? They are NOT personalities of God Almighty by any stretch of the imagination.

Your Trinity doctrine is a first cousin to both Modalism and Oneness that are also corrupt doctrine.

So, when are you going to actually read scripture for real meaning without wearing your Trinity lenses? You might see a thing or two that have been hiding in plain sight.

Can you write a true scripture-derived, paragraph-size commentary of substance on any of your verses cited in your post?

That is typical of any Trinitarian I have encountered. Short on scripture context and meaning and large of cherry-picking and slapping down Chapter and verse without qualification.


Bless you,

APAK

You serve a different Christ than I do. So we have nothing to compare.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

But they will recognize Christ's word when they hear it.

Which does NOT mean they will fully understand it then. Scripture illustrates that over and over again.

Dave, understanding is an *eventual* fruit of the Spirit. It is not prequieste to salvation. Please acknowledge this rather than trying to make salvation about *man's* ability to pass theology test.

 

[Dave L]

Which does NOT mean they will fully understand it then. Scripture illustrates that over and over again.

Dave, understanding is an *eventual* fruit of the Spirit. It is not prequieste to salvation. Please acknowledge this rather than trying to make salvation about *man's* ability to pass theology test.

Any kid who can read understands the trinity in Jesus' baptism account.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Any kid who can read understands the trinity in Jesus' baptism account.

Nonsense. No kid reads the story about Christ's baptism and then instantly rambles off about consubstantiality.

Dave, please acknowledge that salvation is not about *man's* ability to pass theology test.