False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[The Light]

The events that the sixth seal reveal and the events that the seventh seal reveal is not in chronological order.

The issue is not the order the seals are opened to reveal what they contain, but the events themselves.

Both are exactly in order, just as the Word says. Put down the sledgehammer and if what you read needs to be beaten into place something is wrong. Once you make something fit, that messes up the outcome.

The Word is correct. Just accept what is written. If you need to rearrange things, something is wrong. But the error is not in the Word.

 

[The Light]

Yep
The last part of the GT is wrath.

Nope. The Great Tribulation is OVER before wrath.

Can't you read these two verses and determine with the information given that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal?

Mark 13
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

[The Light]

We can all assume the wrath is one year.
Does not change anything.

It changes a lot for anyone that thinks that the wrath of God and the great tribulation is the same thing.

Assuming the innumerable number are in heaven at the time you suggest is out if whack.
The verse you quoted for their arrival in heaven only states they are already there, not when they arrived.

This is a good point.
However, there is a harvest at the 6th seal, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBUALTION.....................after the tribulation at the 6th seal............before the wrath of God.

So the great multitude seen in heaven fits perfectly.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture"

It won't be "secret" when a bunch of confessing Christians are suddenly gone.

All those left behind will know whassup.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The Great Tribulation is OVER before wrath.

And yet, DURING the tribulation the Lord sends His wrath against the anti-christ and his followers

 

[The Light]

The entire 7 years is great tribulation.

This is incorrect and you cannot produce any scripture to support this.

I can produce scripture that the entire 7 years is about the people of Daniel.

Wrath has within it tribulation

Not the tribulation of those days............meaning the great tribulation. This tribulation is about the dragon's attack on believers.

Definitions are useful.
One dimensional mental interpretations and making things fit like "trumpets" , "day of the lord"
,"hour", "tribulation","great tribulation", "wrath", etc can make things look correct, but defy the panoramic picture.
Anything anyone comes up with changing dynamics of the virgins, or the wedding parable, or the return on white horses, is red flags.

I have changed nothing. Jesus returns on white horses at the end of wrath. This is the second advent.

Jesus returns and remains in the clouds at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation for the second harvest. This is the second coming.

Can you name a teacher or ministry that agrees with your position?

Absolutely not. There are plenty of people that agree that Jesus returns at the 6th seal before wrath. But I've only seen a few that understand that there are two raptures and none of these are teachers.

The problem is, I can disprove what they are saying with scripture. They cannot do the same to what I believe because it agrees with scripture.

Don't you ever read these peoples posts that claim that the Church is raptured after the man of sin is revealed. They think what they see is the Church being raptured. The Church is already in heaven in Revelation 5 so it is not the Church being raptured after the man of sin is revealed. It is the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits. They are first fruits of the second harvest as the first harvest has already happened.

 

[The Light]

And yet, DURING the tribulation the Lord sends His wrath against the anti-christ and his followers

Chapter and verse? La Pal.

I'm expecting crickets.

 

[The Light]

It won't be "secret" when a bunch of confessing Christians are suddenly gone.

All those left behind will know whassup.

There will be plenty of confessing Christians that will still be here. And there will be plenty of people that look like sinners that will be gone. But they washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and will be ready when the bridegroom comes.

Additionally,
2 Thes 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[Timtofly]

You should be reading from Revelation 1 thru Revelation in 11 in order. The only exception is Revelation 7. Those 144,000 first fruits are not sealed after Revelation 6; they are sealed earlier sometime in the 1st four seals. We can determine that by Revelation 14.

Then you turn around and change Revelation to fit your interpretation. There are no exceptions.

The 5th Seal is not the GT. If anything the GT would cover the Seals, the first 6 Trumpets, and the 7 Thunders. That would be the entire time of Jacob's trouble.

No one even considers the Thunders, but jumbles up Revelation like a blender.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I'm expecting crickets.

Did you pray and ask the Lord to send crickets?

There will be plenty of confessing Christians that will still be here.

Yes, the ones that are not right with the Lord (living in sin) as well as the ones that refuse to believe God's Word on the catching away of the saints.

Jesus won't be catching away the lukewarm or the heretics so yes there will be plenty of "confessing" christians left behind to go thru the devil's wrath during the tribulation

And there will be plenty of people that look like sinners that will be gone.

Yeah, satan has deceived many to believe they can still be sinners and be saved.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is incorrect and you cannot produce any scripture to support this.

I can produce scripture that the entire 7 years is about the people of Daniel.


Not the tribulation of those days............meaning the great tribulation. This tribulation is about the dragon's attack on believers.



I have changed nothing. Jesus returns on white horses at the end of wrath. This is the second advent.

Jesus returns and remains in the clouds at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation for the second harvest. This is the second coming.

Absolutely not. There are plenty of people that agree that Jesus returns at the 6th seal before wrath. But I've only seen a few that understand that there are two raptures and none of these are teachers.

The problem is, I can disprove what they are saying with scripture. They cannot do the same to what I believe because it agrees with scripture.

Don't you ever read these peoples posts that claim that the Church is raptured after the man of sin is revealed. They think what they see is the Church being raptured. The Church is already in heaven in Revelation 5 so it is not the Church being raptured after the man of sin is revealed. It is the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits. They are first fruits of the second harvest as the first harvest has already happened.

The AC is revealed then the rapture.
He is not in power when he is revealed.
Obama was an example of revealed then a few months later, installed in power.
You are thinking something other than revealed.
He is revealed pretrib to the remnant church exactly like Obama was.
Many good Christians followed Obama in deception.
Many good Christians will be deceived by the AC on his pretrib entry to politics.

We agree on the white horses.
And a ton of other things.
We agree partially on the wrath.
The only time Jesus comes in power is on the white horses.
The bible says he comes at the end of the GT on white horses ( power and glory)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is incorrect and you cannot produce any scripture to support this.

I can produce scripture that the entire 7 years is about the people of Daniel.


Not the tribulation of those days............meaning the great tribulation. This tribulation is about the dragon's attack on believers.



I have changed nothing. Jesus returns on white horses at the end of wrath. This is the second advent.

Jesus returns and remains in the clouds at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation for the second harvest. This is the second coming.

Absolutely not. There are plenty of people that agree that Jesus returns at the 6th seal before wrath. But I've only seen a few that understand that there are two raptures and none of these are teachers.

The problem is, I can disprove what they are saying with scripture. They cannot do the same to what I believe because it agrees with scripture.

Don't you ever read these peoples posts that claim that the Church is raptured after the man of sin is revealed. They think what they see is the Church being raptured. The Church is already in heaven in Revelation 5 so it is not the Church being raptured after the man of sin is revealed. It is the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits. They are first fruits of the second harvest as the first harvest has already happened.

the Jews are raptured after the AC is installed.
The church is raptured after He is revealed.
You think the millions beheaded are nor aware of the AC?
It is the Jews that are powerfully deceived.
They are blinded for a reason.
Exactly like they are blinded now....and were blinded when Jesus walked among us.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is incorrect and you cannot produce any scripture to support this.

I can produce scripture that the entire 7 years is about the people of Daniel.


Not the tribulation of those days............meaning the great tribulation. This tribulation is about the dragon's attack on believers.



I have changed nothing. Jesus returns on white horses at the end of wrath. This is the second advent.

Jesus returns and remains in the clouds at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation for the second harvest. This is the second coming.

Absolutely not. There are plenty of people that agree that Jesus returns at the 6th seal before wrath. But I've only seen a few that understand that there are two raptures and none of these are teachers.

The problem is, I can disprove what they are saying with scripture. They cannot do the same to what I believe because it agrees with scripture.

Don't you ever read these peoples posts that claim that the Church is raptured after the man of sin is revealed. They think what they see is the Church being raptured. The Church is already in heaven in Revelation 5 so it is not the Church being raptured after the man of sin is revealed. It is the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits. They are first fruits of the second harvest as the first harvest has already happened.

"""Jesus returns and remains in the clouds at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation for the second harvest. This is the second coming."""
Again..does not line up.
Rev 14. Harvest in vs 14 is with a sickle.
The white horses leave from heaven.
Vs 14 harvest is to heaven.

And again I do not see The Jews at the wedding feast. In the wedding parable the Jews do not attend.
In mat 25 the gentile bride goes directly to the wedding chamber..

 

[The Light]

Did you pray and ask the Lord to send crickets?

LOL. Nice. And I got the crickets I was expecting.

You made a claim................ "And yet, DURING the tribulation the Lord sends His wrath against the anti-christ and his followers"

I asked you to provide chapter verse on any proof of this and you were unable to provide. I already knew I was getting crickets because the statement is untrue. Tribulation is not wrath. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God is the 7th seal

I see that you changed your name from Hobie to Dan Clarkston. Anyway, thanks for the laugh. If you can come up with any verses that prove your statement, please feel free to post them.

 

[The Light]

"""Jesus returns and remains in the clouds at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation for the second harvest. This is the second coming."""
Again..does not line up.
Rev 14. Harvest in vs 14 is with a sickle.
The white horses leave from heaven.
Vs 14 harvest is to heaven.

This is exactly my point. Rev 14 Harvest in vs 14 is with a sickle and is to heaven. It is the gathering in Matthew 24. The Lord comes in power and great glory but remains in the clouds for the harvest. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. The righteous of the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth and any Gentile gleanings will be harvested to heaven for the marriage supper. The woman, Israel will remain on earth during the wrath of God in the place of protection. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

And again I do not see The Jews at the wedding feast. In the wedding parable the Jews do not attend.
In mat 25 the gentile bride goes directly to the wedding chamber..

There are two marriages. Jacob had two brides. There are two raptures. The fig tree has two harvests. One coming like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 6 days before the flood and one coming like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. Noah was a Gentile, Lot was of the seed of Abram. There is a grain harvest and fruit harvest. One rapture at the trump of God and one rapture at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets. One rapture the dead are raised first, and the Lord returns for the alive that remain, one rapture the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[The Light]

the Jews are raptured after the AC is installed.
The church is raptured after He is revealed.

The Jews are raptured after the Antichrist is revealed.
The Church is raptured before he is revealed.

You think the millions beheaded are nor aware of the AC?
It is the Jews that are powerfully deceived.
They are blinded for a reason.
Exactly like they are blinded now....and were blinded when Jesus walked among us.

Part of Israel, the seed of the woman, will have its blindness removed after the rapture of the Church.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[Timtofly]

No. These comments are based on the order THAT YOU THINK I SEE not on what I see.

Just a note, the tribulation of those days is on the Jews. The Church is already in heaven.

So you do not post what you see? You have yet to make a post that follows Scripture.

The tribulation of those days has been ongoing for 1994 years. It happens to some of the church at some times, but not all the church all of the time. This type of trouble stops when the church is removed at the 5th Seal.

Jacob's trouble is from the 6th Seal to the 6th Trumpet. Jesus and the angels are on the earth during Jacob's Trouble. Jacob is in trouble because 2 thirds of Jacob alive on the earth will be cast into the LOF alive. That is experiencing the wrath of God first hand. That would equate to near 2 billion people it would seem. Compared to the Flood where all but 8 people experienced God's wrath may be hard to understand.

More of Jacob will be redeemed, so perhaps the separation from loved ones will be greater at that point, even for those redeemed, until God changes them, and the former things they will no longer remember.

Facing God's wrath in our current mind-set means giving up everything we hold dear, no? Lot certainly lost everything, even his daughters who bore two nations who were enemies of Israel to this day.

Is it just comparing two seperate judgments to a simple upcoming judgment, or is there more to the Second Coming that we tend to gloss over, thinking everything will be over in hours. Nor do I think wrath is going to last for a year. For the majority of those alive today, God's wrath is going to last for eternity. You are basing the wrath on a time frame for a symbolic relationship. While being sons of God, we are not literally married to His Son. So basing time on the carnal workings of the flesh, should we not be basing God's wrath on the eternal separation from God, because of choosing disobedience over obedience to God?

To me that is why this trouble is going to be worse than the judgment of the Flood or Sodom, where those people are still facing God's wrath in sheol, but have yet to see the judgment of the LOF, which at the Second Coming will be the judgment handed to the vast majority. While those in sheol from the Flood and Sodom are still waiting to be tossed into the LOF, and over a thousand more years of waiting is in store for them.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

And I got the crickets I was expecting.

You goin fishin?

Tribulation is not wrath

Tribulation is satan's wrath even in our daily lives right now. Those that walk as one with the Lord know how to receive deliverance from the forces of darkness. Too bad you don't know this. Since you claim to be knowledgeable in the scripture and don't already know this shows you are out of touch with the Lord and don't even know it.

When satan is attacking Christians and Jews left behind after the catching away of the church... the fake god you serve will stand by and do nothing which violates promises the Lord has already made to His faithful that you obviously know nothing of.

Those that walk closely with the Lord receive deliverance from oppression but you are welcome to experience all the satanic beat downs you desire. According to your faith it shall be done unto you!

 

[The Light]

Then you turn around and change Revelation to fit your interpretation.

Or I understand that the 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The 5th seal is the great tribulation and the 6th seal is the second coming of Jesus for the harvest before wrath.

There are no exceptions.

The 5th Seal is not the GT.

The fact that you are unable to understand the 5th seal is the great tribulation does not change the FACT that it is.

If anything the GT would cover the Seals, the first 6 Trumpets, and the 7 Thunders.

Please. The trumpets and thunders are the wrath of God. The tribulation of those days, which is the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal

That would be the entire time of Jacob's trouble.

No one even considers the Thunders, but jumbles up Revelation like a blender.

The thunders are likely when Armageddon occurs, but you won't understand that either.

 

[The Light]

So you do not post what you see? You have yet to make a post that follows Scripture.

Oh boy. Let me fix that for you. You have yet to make a post that I am able to comprehend that follows scripture. There you go.

The tribulation of those days has been ongoing for 1994 years.

Here is the scripture of the tribulation of those days.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Read that verse and then try to figure out how you could possibly conclude that the great tribulation that is like no other time in history has been going on for 1994 years.

Think...................

It happens to some of the church at some times, but not all the church all of the time. This type of trouble stops when the church is removed at the 5th Seal.

The Church is removed before the seals are opened. Read Rev 3, 4. and 5

Jacob's trouble is from the 6th Seal to the 6th Trumpet. Jesus and the angels are on the earth during Jacob's Trouble.

Jesus is in the clouds at the 6th seal. How is it that you don't understand that? Here...............
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Jacob is in trouble because 2 thirds of Jacob alive on the earth will be cast into the LOF alive.

Sheesh. Please post chapter and verse of this incorrect conclusion.

That is experiencing the wrath of God first hand. That would equate to near 2 billion people it would seem. Compared to the Flood where all but 8 people experienced God's wrath may be hard to understand.

Gods people are not appointed to wrath.
1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Nor do I think wrath is going to last for a year.

I'll go with the Word on this one. The DAY of the Lord is one year.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

You are basing the wrath on a time frame for a symbolic relationship.

I am basing the time frame of God's wrath, Day of the Lord by the scripture.

I don't make up a bunch of garbage. What I believe is found in the scripture.

To me that is why this trouble is going to be worse than the judgment of the Flood or Sodom, where those people are still facing God's wrath in sheol, but have yet to see the judgment of the LOF, which at the Second Coming will be the judgment handed to the vast majority. While those in sheol from the Flood and Sodom are still waiting to be tossed into the LOF, and over a thousand more years of waiting is in store for them.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The judgement occurs at the 7th trumpet as does the second advent.