False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[PinSeeker]

Harpazo......1 Thes 4

Yes, as expected. That's the Greek work translated into the English as "caught up," as I'm sure you are aware. So that's in there, for sure, but if we look at that passage as a whole (specifically verses 14 through 17), we read the following (emphasis mine):

• "through Jesus, God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep" (v.14)
• "we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep" (v.15)
• "the Lord Himself will descend from heaven... (a)nd the dead in Christ will rise first" (v.16)
• "we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord" (v.17)

There is absolutely nothing in that passage that insinuates (much less says explicitly) that anyone is removed from the earth for any significant length of time. Nothing. Yes, we will always be with the Lord, for sure, but there is nothing there about believers being removed, or even taken, anywhere. Verse 14 specifically says that all believers who have previously died will come with Jesus in His return; He will bring them with Him. Those who are alive will go out to meet Him, as subjects of royalty do many times in the Bible ~ in the same manner but on a much, much grander scale, of course, as those in Jerusalem went out to meet the Lord in His triumphal entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. Yes, those still alive at the return of Christ will go out to meet Him in the air, and then will join Him in His descent. When He returns, He returns. He doesn't "leave again.", His return, even escorting Him in.

OK. You will have to expound.

Right, well, as for any kind of "removal" of those in Christ, see immediately above; we stay, and after the final Judgment, the New Heaven and New Earth is made a reality... all is made new, as God says in Revelation 21:5. It is important to note that God says there, "Behold, I am making all things new." He does not say anything about "making all new things," but again, rather, says He is renewing things. This has been the case since the Fall in Genesis 3. God's full intention and purpose has been to restore everything back to how He created it ~ "very good" (Genesis 1:31). This is what He promised Adam and Eve (and us) He would do by telling Satan, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel" (Genesis 3:15). This is the first proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, veiled as it may be.

As for 'harpazo,' that's translated actually to a phrase in English ~ 'will be caught up.' This is to be understood as a seizing, and in the sense that Jesus, in His return, will seize once and for all what is His, what Satan had claimed for himself. It is not a removal of any kind; that is not what 'harpazo' insinuates at all. So Jesus's return will certainly be rapturous, so to speak, but just a coming in final triumph, not a coming and going away.

Ultimately, though ~ after the final Judgment ~ there is a group of folks "removed," in a certain sense, but these are unbelievers, the unrepentant. Having been resurrected to judgment (John 5:29), they stand on Jesus's left during the Judgment, and they will hear the Lord say to them, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" and will "go away into eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:41-46). They will be "removed" from the New Heaven and New Earth in this way.

Grace and peace to you, TL (The Light).

 

[Timtofly]

As Peter is talking about the Day of the Lord, the new heaven and new earth he refers to in 2Peter3:13

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

There was a new heaven and earth after the Flood. There was not a totally different creation.

There will be a new heaven and earth after the final harvest. But God removes all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, before that earth and heaven can start, just like all flesh prior to the Flood was removed, besides the 8 souls in the ark.

In the Day of the Lord, the 144k, the sheep, and the wheat will come out the other side of this cleansing, and populate the earth. But they will not take Adam's dead corruptible flesh this time into the Day of the Lord. This is not the church on the earth. This is the earth being subdued like Genesis 1:28 stipulates.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

God's purpose was to always fill the earth, but not with sin and death. The sons of God did not come back after the Flood, it was only Noah and 7 others. At the Cross, the OT redeemed did not come back and fill the earth. The church was redeemed from those already born on the earth. But at the Second Coming, God is going to remove the curse, and there will be a restored heaven and earth. But there is still the Day of the Lord time period after the curse is removed. That is the promise of Daniel 9:24.

"upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

That is why 144k are sealed from every tribe of Jacob. That is why there is a remnant of sheep among the goats. Israel will all be redeemed who live during the Day of the Lord. But the wheat represents all the other nations like Egypt who is mentioned in Zechariah 14. And of course we see Isaiah 65 also talks about a new heaven and earth. But all this is still this current creation and reality. The church does not descend from heaven until after 1 Corinthians 15 is accomplished and God is all in all.

 

[Keraz]

As Peter is talking about the Day of the Lord, the new heaven and new earth he refers to in 2Peter3:13

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The great and terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, is not the same time as the NH, NE.
nevertheless..... means in spite of, or because of, so the DoL must be before the NH, NE. Which we know it is from the given sequence of Revelation. In fact there will be at least 1010 years between the two events.

 

[The Light]

Yes, as expected. That's the Greek work translated into the English as "caught up," as I'm sure you are aware. So that's in there, for sure, but if we look at that passage as a whole (specifically verses 14 through 17), we read the following (emphasis mine):

• "through Jesus, God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep" (v.14)
• "we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep" (v.15)
• "the Lord Himself will descend from heaven... (a)nd the dead in Christ will rise first" (v.16)
• "we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord" (v.17)

There is absolutely nothing in that passage that insinuates (much less says explicitly) that anyone is removed from the earth for any significant length of time. Nothing. Yes, we will always be with the Lord, for sure, but there is nothing there about believers being removed, or even taken, anywhere. Verse 14 specifically says that all believers who have previously died will come with Jesus in His return; He will bring them with Him.

The alive that remain will not precede the dead. The dead in Christ will rise first. This is the barley harvest. They will go to heaven with the Lord.

When Jesus returns for the alive that remain, he will bring the dead with Him and when the alive are caught up we will meet the Lord in the air. This is the wheat harvest. All go to heaven with the Lord This is the pre trib raptue.

Those who are alive will go out to meet Him, as subjects of royalty do many times in the Bible ~ in the same manner but on a much, much grander scale, of course, as those in Jerusalem went out to meet the Lord in His triumphal entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. Yes, those still alive at the return of Christ will go out to meet Him in the air, and then will join Him in His descent. When He returns, He returns. He doesn't "leave again.", His return, even escorting Him in.

There is also a fruit harvest which occurs at the second coming when Jesus remains in the clouds to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The dead in Christ and the alive that were caught up will come with Him as the Lord returns for the fruit harvest. Here is the first fruits of that harvest.
Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

These 144,000 are redeemed FROM THE EARTH and are BEFORE THE THRONE. That's the first fruits of the harvest. When the harvest occurs they go to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Right, well, as for any kind of "removal" of those in Christ, see immediately above; we stay, and after the final Judgment, the New Heaven and New Earth is made a reality... all is made new, as God says in Revelation 21:5. It is important to note that God says there, "Behold, I am making all things new." He does not say anything about "making all new things," but again, rather, says He is renewing things. This has been the case since the Fall in Genesis 3. God's full intention and purpose has been to restore everything back to how He created it ~ "very good" (Genesis 1:31). This is what He promised Adam and Eve (and us) He would do by telling Satan, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel" (Genesis 3:15). This is the first proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, veiled as it may be.

The righteous are removed from the earth before the wrath of God. And the Church is removed from the earth BEFORE the tribulation. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. The Church is gone as Noah was in ark 6 days before the flood.

As for 'harpazo,' that's translated actually to a phrase in English ~ 'will be caught up.' This is to be understood as a seizing, and in the sense that Jesus, in His return, will seize once and for all what is His, what Satan had claimed for himself. It is not a removal of any kind; that is not what 'harpazo' insinuates at all. So Jesus's return will certainly be rapturous, so to speak, but just a coming in final triumph, not a coming and going away.

The Church can escape all the things that Jesus mentions. That's the tribulation. We can stand in heaven before the throne just as the Word says.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Ultimately, though ~ after the final Judgment ~ there is a group of folks "removed," in a certain sense, but these are unbelievers, the unrepentant. Having been resurrected to judgment (John 5:29), they stand on Jesus's left during the Judgment, and they will hear the Lord say to them, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" and will "go away into eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:41-46). They will be "removed" from the New Heaven and New Earth in this way.

Grace and peace to you, TL (The Light).

I believe you are not correct about these things. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal, not at the end of wrath. (7th trumpet)

We are world apart on this brother. Can I ask you did you learn these things yourself or are they taught in a Church?

 

[The Light]

The great and terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, is not the same time as the NH, NE.
nevertheless..... means in spite of, or because of, so the DoL must be before the NH, NE. Which we know it is from the given sequence of Revelation. In fact there will be at least 1010 years between the two events.

How do you come up with 1010 years?

 

[The Light]

Are you referring to Matthew 24:31 as being a rapture ?

If so, the gathering in Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture but is referring to the gathering of all of the children of Israel back to the land of Israel.

The wording in verse 31 is taken from Deuteronomy 30:1-6 of a promise God made to the children of Israel that if they got back into right relationship with Him, He would gather them out of the nations back to the land of Israel.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Deuteronomy 30: 4 If any of thine be driven outunto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is a rapture. It occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. Here is that rapture in Revelation

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This is a harvest and is the great multitude seen in Revelation 7

 

[Timtofly]

Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Why would you say the winepress of God's wrath is the rapture of anyone? Is God angry with people and thus removes them from the earth as a form of judgment via a rapture?

The other place this is found is in the 19th chapter:

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

So in one account we have a sickle gathering the vine into the winepress and the other a sword.

We should understand that both represent the final removal of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are actually two endings that are completed. But one is at the end of a week of days of the 7th Trumpet. The other is if Daniel 9:27 is fulfilled, and the week of the days of the 7th Trumpet is split in half and extended 42 months.

Both accounts leave no humans alive on the earth. The winepress is the last harvest, and no souls remain after that.

That is why Revelation 14 starts out with the 144k and Jesus on heavenly mount zion. The 7th Trumpet just declared Jesus as King of every nation. Within the week of the days of the 7th Trumpet, it will be decided by God to extend time or declare time up. We see that in Revelation 10:5-7.

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

We really don't know how the winepress in Revelation will work out. This could involve some drastic change to the earth like the Flood. The face of the earth wiped clean. All we are told is the symbolism of a sickle and a winepress, harvest terminology. While Jesus is the 7th King of the 7th Kingdom, the earth still needs to be made new. Or in the midst of the week, in 3.5 days it will be decided by God if Satan is allowed as the 8th king over the 8th Kingdom, thus extended the winepress out and time is not over. (Revelation 17:10-11)

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space (Jesus declared king at the 7th Trumpet for at least 3.5 days). And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth (Satan), and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Satan is the 7th head of the dragon, the sea beast, and the scarlet beast as they are all the same kingdoms from Daniel 2. At least 5 of them that are fallen. The 6th is the current kingdom with the mortal wound. The church has not let any single nation dictate over the whole world. That ends at the 5th Seal when the church is removed. Then Satan is allowed to attempt a healing of this 6th head up until the 7th Trumpet sounds. So the winepress in Revelation 14 is the end of all humanity of the 6th kingdom if the sickle is chosen. If Satan is allowed 42 months, then the sickle is not used, and the sword is used when the 7th Kingdom returns as the armies of heaven, and then all of Adam's flesh is destroyed at Armageddon.

You all argue over how many raptures there are, but Jesus leaving with the 144k presumably on white horses is not a rapture, but an ascension. Jesus has been sitting on a throne in a temple in Jerusalem since the 6th Seal when He came per Zechariah 14 and totally rearranged the geography of the ME and literally the whole world, where ever continent and mountain (kingdom/nations) are removed out of their places. That is when the stars come to earth and gather the final harvest per Matthew 25 and 13, the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

 

[Douggg]

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is a rapture. It occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. Here is that rapture in Revelation

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This is a harvest and is the great multitude seen in Revelation 7

Yes, those verses are at the end of the great tribulation. But no, those verses in Revelation 14 are not about the rapture. In the verses...

1, Jesus is given a sickle.

2. And an angel is given a sickle.

The verses are metaphorical speaking about judgment on the wicked, who are thrown into the winepress of God's wrath on the day that Jesus returns. A way of saying they will die that day.

-------------------------------------------------

In Revelation 16, the kings of the earth gather their armies to make war on Jesus - as the result of the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven in the sixth seal event. The sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven (Matthew 24:30a) will be Jesus, sickle in hand. His intentions, obvious to the wicked of the world.





Then once the kings of the earth have gathered their armies at Armageddon, and have moved a portion of them down to surround Jerusalem, taking half of the city as hostages in Zechariah 14:2 as part of their strategy to keep Jesus from executing judgment on them - and the beast-king, and the false prophet and Satan (concealed within the living, speaking statue image), who will be on the temple mount that day.... then Jesus descends to earth, to the Mount of Olives directly across from the temple mount.

The scene will be Jesus then descending to earth in power and great glory (Matthew 24:30b), to the Mt. of Olives in Jerusalem in Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19 - Who will then execute judgment on the armies gathered to make war on Him, surrounding the city that day. i.e. they will die.

That is in the immediate vicinity of Jerusalem. In the remainder of Israel, it will be the angel given the sickle to execute God's judgment on the rest of the armies. Take a look at Revelation 14:19-20, verse 20.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

"without the city" means beyond the city of Jerusalem.

The thousand and six hundred furlongs equates to the north-south length of Israel, 200 miles.

 

[Keraz]

How do you come up with 1010 years?

The Sixth Seal world changer, is at least 10 years before the glorious Return, then comes the 1000 years of the reign of King Jesus.
It cannot be correct to place the Sixth Seal at the Return, or have a rapture to heaven then.

 

[Douggg]

There was a new heaven and earth after the Flood. There was not a totally different creation.

Tim, it was not a new heaven and earth after the flood. The earth and atmosphere were changed, but not replaced. There are dinosaur fossils found worldwide in this present earth.

There will be a new heaven and earth after the final harvest. But God removes all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, before that earth and heaven can start, just like all flesh prior to the Flood was removed, besides the 8 souls in the ark.

When Jesus returns, He will restore this present earth from the damage to it done during the great tribulation. There will not be an eradication of humans descended from Adam because of the great tribulation. Jesus when He returns will rule the nations, the heathen, with a rod of iron, for the 1000 year millennium.

 

[The Light]

The Sixth Seal world changer, is at least 10 years before the glorious Return,

What scripture are you using to draw this conclusion?

 

[The Light]

Yes, those verses are at the end of the great tribulation. But no, those verses in Revelation 14 are not about the rapture. In the verses...

1, Jesus is given a sickle.

2. And an angel is given a sickle.

The verses are metaphorical speaking about judgment on the wicked, who are thrown into the winepress of God's wrath on the day that Jesus returns. A way of saying they will die that day.

-------------------------------------------------

In Revelation 16, the kings of the earth gather their armies to make war on Jesus - as the result of the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven in the sixth seal event. The sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven (Matthew 24:30a) will be Jesus, sickle in hand. His intentions, obvious to the wicked of the world.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Jesus swings the sickle for a harvest. This is a rapture. The righteous are harvested from the earth and are in heaven during the wrath of God.

The unrighteous are also harvested but an angel bears the sickle. They are cast into the wrath of God. This is the fall fruit harvest which is why there are grapes. The barley and wheat harvest have already occurred which is the dead in Christ and the alive that remained.

Revelation 14
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14, you are back in the seals. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. Armageddon has already occurred, and Jesus has already set up His kingdom on the earth.

Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The harvest in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal as the unrighteous are cast in the wrath of God.

Revelation 6 (6th seal)

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Jesus swings the sickle for a harvest. This is a rapture. The righteous are harvested from the earth and are in heaven during the wrath of God.

The unrighteous are also harvested but an angel bears the sickle. They are cast into the wrath of God. This is the fall fruit harvest which is why there are grapes. The barley and wheat harvest have already occurred which is the dead in Christ and the alive that remained.

Revelation 14
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14, you are back in the seals. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. Armageddon has already occurred, and Jesus has already set up His kingdom on the earth.

Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The harvest in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal as the unrighteous are cast in the wrath of God.

Revelation 6 (6th seal)

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The rapture is by a voice - not a sickle. You are leaving out Revelation 14:20.

Jesus executes God's judgment on them who come up against Jerusalem.
The angel with the sickle executes God's judgment of them outside of Jerusalem, Revelation 14:20.

 

[The Light]

The rapture is by a voice - not a sickle.

The rapture of the Church pre trib is the bridegroom coming for the bride at the trump of God or voice of God.

The second rapture is at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets That is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal and is depicted in Rev 14. This is also the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24

You are leaving out Revelation 14:20.

Jesus executes God's judgment on them who come up against Jerusalem.
The angel with the sickle executes God's judgment of them outside of Jerusalem, Revelation 14:20.

You are missing the whole point. The point is that the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God.

 

[Keraz]

What scripture are you using to draw this conclusion?

The final 7 years of Daniel's 70 'weeks Prophecy, is before Jesus Returns.
The Sixth Seal of the Lords fiery wrath, must be some time before the 7yr peace treaty is signed, Daniel 9:27

From the Seventh Seal, we know that time gap will not be ten, but at least 15 years.

 

[The Light]

The final 7 years of Daniel's 70 'weeks Prophecy, is before Jesus Returns.
The Sixth Seal of the Lords fiery wrath, must be some time before the 7yr peace treaty is signed, Daniel 9:27

From the Seventh Seal, we know that time gap will not be ten, but at least 15 years.

Thanks for your response but I'm not sure where your conclusions come from.

From the time the 70th week of Daniel begins there are 7 years before Jesus sets up His kingdom. This happens at the 7th seal after the second advent occurs.

When the second coming occurs at the 6th seal, there is a little more than 1 year for the wrath of God to be completed.

 

[Douggg]

You are missing the whole point. The point is that the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God.

The text says the winepress of God's wrath. In other words, smashed like grapes, i.e. killed.

What you are missing is that the angel carries out God's judgment on the wicked in the area of Israel which is OUTSIDE OF THE CITY OF JERUSALEM. Verse 20

But within the city of Jerusalem, it is Jesus who carries out God's judgment on the wicked. There is no rapture involved.


19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

[The Light]

What you are missing is that the angel carries out God's judgment on the wicked in the area of Israel which is OUTSIDE OF THE CITY OF JERUSALEM. Verse 20

What you are missing is that the wrath of God is on all the earth.

Rev 14
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

But within the city of Jerusalem, it is Jesus who carries out God's judgment on the wicked. There is no rapture involved.

Here is the rapture of the righteous from the earth. The Son of man harvests the righteous it is a rapture.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.


Here is that same rapture in Matthew 24 It is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This rapture occurs AT THE 6TH SEAL as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, 2Thessalonians2:1 is referring to the rapture.

Matthew 24:31 though is not referring to the rapture

It is the rapture. Same timeframe and both a gathering during a Coming.

 

[ewq1938]

This rapture occurs AT THE 6TH SEAL as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Using that logic someone can declare the rapture happened at the OD as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars, Matthew 24:29-31.